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| Thread: Arms sales. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Neraus
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posted June 06, 2015 10:07 AM |
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Stevie said:
Yet no doubt that the assimilation of Christian theology happened, especially after Constantine, eventually ending up as a religious mess (mixed with paganism) and also becoming a politico-military tool in the hands of rulers and the catholic church. But it didn't had a shred of Biblical support, and it also happened later on, mainly when crusades and jihads became a thing.
I laugh when somebody says that the Catholics never had a shred of biblical support, I laugh even more because people don't seem to realize that faith isn't based only on the Book and on itself solely, Papal authority was always justified from both a religious standpoint and a political standpoint, and I'm not talking about the donation of Constantine before you say that.
And yes, it's true, Christianity can also justify a war, that's the reason a concept like a "Just war" appeared, but before you say anything, the first reason is that it must be a defensive war to be "Just", otherwise it's just murder, it has been theorized mostly by theologians, but you can actually use the bible to understand that concept, as I like to say you have only two cheeks.
And you're inflating enormously the issue with Crusades, the great Crusades were what? 9, and the others that weren't aimed at the Middle East? 11, and arguably some of them don't even have a reason to be called that way; while the military jihads, have a cute thing called not having a commonly agreed upon definition, because to this day people will not make a good definition, but, as I understand the most common definition I tend to find is: "a war fought by Muslims to defend or spread their beliefs", by that definition they were more than five hundred. (Of course, by that definition, but I believe that even in the case it was another definition they would still be more than the Crusades)
Pagan traditions were never integrated into the Church per se, but instead were maintained by the populations that lived there, the Church actually would try and extirpate those traditions, there were entire books written on the subject and regarding penances required after committing to Pagan rituals, the Roman rituals were also pretty despised, there is no justification for a Christian to believe in astrology and clairvoyance like the Romans did, doing so would be Pagan and would require, as I said before, penance, something that people unlike today took seriously instead of passing it as something unnecessary and useless, making it pretty bad for people to still commit to those traditions.
Pagan rituals were instead integrated in the early heresies, take the Solar-Christians, the ones that identified Christ as the Sol Invictus, or the Christian Gnostics, the ones that believed that God in the old testament was the Devil and in the New Testament was the actual God, that basically were a rehash of a cult in the ancient times. Mithraic-Christians and so on; it wasn't uncommon in the early days that people jumped on the band-wagon of Christianity to make it fit inside their old religions, especially the ones that already had a concept such as Monotheism (see the cult of Mithra), and according to some hypotheses Constantine converted to Solar-Christianity and not to Catholicism.
artu said:
What I say is pretty simple, before Rome turned Christian, you have legions fighting for the glory of Rome, loot, the emperor... After the conversion, you have a massive military machine united under a faith and a self-justification to spread that "one true faith" on a monotheistic high horse and their insurance of martyrdom and eternal heaven. The second part was a new concept, it worked efficiently and it caught on. Birth of Islam and its immediate success at expansion is the execution of that very same idea:
Well, there is a problem with the concept of a solidified faith inside of the Roman army, just before the fall of the Empire, that is to say in the IV and V century, Christianity was taking a hold, but there were heresies abound, and still there were the various cults that soldiers believed in, it is believed that the Roman army was so varied that you could find a variety of cults and even a mixture of them, making the concept of an army following one united faith in the Roman times difficult to believe in my opinion, also, the early Christians especially didn't like the concept of offensive wars, I once read that one of the reasons Rome would persecute Christians before Constantine was in fact because they refused to serve in the army.
To the topic at hand now:
I never had too many problems with Muslims personally, and I believe that they can coexist peacefully if they follow the laws of the countries they are residing in, or at least here in Sicily, as they have always contributed to the well being of our island, and that is how I believe we should handle this problem, do like the Sicilians did in the Middle Ages, without them we wouldn't have many things we pride ourselves of having, and I'm thankful for that.
Instead we've been too forgiving with them, I believe for the fear of being called racists, I remember that in London there were zones that were controlled by Shari'a law, and that it wasn't advised to go there, the radicalization of Islam that we witness in the middle east is why I believe that we shouldn't stay idle and allow them to do as they please, we should instead reason with them and, maybe, reach a compromise; also, we should collaborate with the various Arab countries as peace mediators and fix this problem once and for all...
And then a new terrorist group springs out again because we are too incompetent and we like having tension, otherwise how could we sell arms?
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted June 06, 2015 01:35 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Selling arms is a profitable business ever since the ancient times, the only thing which has changed throughout the centuries is the amount of the production and the size of the market - and these two are related. I don't see a reason to blame the "modern man" of any extra bloodthirstiness compared to his predecessors, the human psychology is fairly static in that regard.
No argument as far as that goes but that's a reduced view. Escalation of Techs, Scale and growing-availability are only a few of the important aspects regarding modern man.
Additionally I don't think you can really compare today's "Arms-Business" with anything that has went on before. Nowadays Tech that is a "decade" old is confidently sold because the sellers think it outdated.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 07, 2015 09:43 PM |
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Neraus said:
Well, there is a problem with the concept of a solidified faith inside of the Roman army, just before the fall of the Empire, that is to say in the IV and V century, Christianity was taking a hold, but there were heresies abound, and still there were the various cults that soldiers believed in, it is believed that the Roman army was so varied that you could find a variety of cults and even a mixture of them, making the concept of an army following one united faith in the Roman times difficult to believe in my opinion, also, the early Christians especially didn't like the concept of offensive wars, I once read that one of the reasons Rome would persecute Christians before Constantine was in fact because they refused to serve in the army.
Of course, it did not happen in a day, but as you say yourself, before Constantine they were pacifists and with him you have Roman legions holding Christian banners. Also, he ruled during the early 300's while Islam came into existence in the early 600's, which is more than enough time for the transformation to mature and the idea to sink in and become an example. This does not necessarily require every single soldier to be Christian anyway, the concept can survive despite the exceptions.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Neraus
Promising
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Pain relief cream seller
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posted June 07, 2015 11:24 PM |
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I still think the concept of a solidified army under one faith is more easy to believe after the fall of Rome, that is to say Islamic armies and the Frankish army under Charles Martel and Charlemagne.
Well, anyway, I see this is getting a little too much off-topic, I'm sorry for that, but I can see why we are suddenly having this discussion.
So, I gave another thought to the topic, and, aren't we forgetting the African warlords in this equation? Conflating all acts of illicit use of weapons (but aren't they made to kill?) with Muslim terrorists excludes the fact that still today there are tribesmen in all Africa fighting for control, and are willing to sell what could be used to help their economies, for example diamonds, to buy weapons from smugglers.
Also, this brings to another issue, the phenomenon of Child warriors, why aren't we intervening when there are such blatant violations of human rights?
I think this is all caused by one thing, people on positions of power won't intervene unless they can get a direct profit themselves, or at least that's the obvious thing, is there another reason why they choose inaction on these issues?
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 07, 2015 11:41 PM |
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The cost of military outside interventions is astronomical then both Europe and USA are broken financially. Beside, the outcome -at long term- of various interventions in the past wasn't what we expected, so now people are just more prudent, or less idealistic; pick the one you want.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 08, 2015 04:35 AM |
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markkur said:
The discussion is arms. And I could use another.
Seriously, this is a major problem in the world today.
Selling Arms is big business in every country that has something worth selling.
Large parts of National budgets around the world go to making weapons to kill, while people are hungry, families struggle, kids can't read and write and on and on. This world lives and breathes WAR.
well, I believe arms selling must actually feed some people. when most countries are strangled by their national debt, selling to other countries is a way to receive money free of debt and reduce the national debt, and I think it is something many people agree with.
and with the imperative of growth, you have no choice but to sell anything, that's why they are privatizing everything to make more money.
I think another way to receive money free of debt is to lend money to another country, which is a way to enslave the weakest countries.
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markkur
Honorable
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Once upon a time
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posted June 08, 2015 02:49 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 14:50, 08 Jun 2015.
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Fauch said:
well, I believe arms selling must actually feed some people.
Of course it feeds "some" people Fauch. What follows is NOT meant for you.
The families of the folks that make the weapons, the clans of the "wonderful dreamers" that imagine the newest and greatest machines of Human-erasure, the friends and families of the peddlers of calamity on the world-stage, yes they all feast very well at the table of "necessary-expenditure". Which might still be called...TAX.
But the feeding does not stop there, in fact, the eating begins at other tables. War is a huge business in many perspectives of modern life and makes, as you said, "some" well fed in many ways. The Entertainment Moguls make products to support their families by creating things called movies that project decapitation and the "coliseums" reverberate with laughs and shouts. Game makers hang, draw and quarter bodies and the young masses giggle and cry more, more...more! Military men of all ages gather in varied institutions and analyze wars long past, while other men "needing to feed their families" gather together to plan the wars of the future.
Ah, yes. So great a feast is War.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 09, 2015 07:38 PM |
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markkur said:
No argument as far as that goes but that's a reduced view. Escalation of Techs, Scale and growing-availability are only a few of the important aspects regarding modern man.
Additionally I don't think you can really compare today's "Arms-Business" with anything that has went on before. Nowadays Tech that is a "decade" old is confidently sold because the sellers think it outdated.
The scale has changed a lot since, say, the Assyrian times, yes, but what of it? At the peak of its power the Roman empire had around 90-100 million people inhabiting a territory about the size of the EU, today that's less than the population of Germany + Benelux. The forms of war have changed, war itself has not because the base of the human behaviour hasn't really evolved that much (if at all). Apart from the increase in size though, the arms business hasn't really gained any extra immorality and neither has the war as such. These things have never been moral to be put under that category anyway.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted June 18, 2015 09:25 PM |
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Hey look, another Islam debate thread.
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