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| Thread: H7: Salvaging the Broken Wreckage (of Magic Skills) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted June 25, 2015 12:52 AM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 14:26, 25 Jun 2015.
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Maurice said:
Wouldn't it simply be better to have the various Magic Schools and then provide a specialisation prefered by the player?
I like your idea but I would choose to apply it in a little bit different way, meaning that each spell would have an element assigned to it. Each faction, by default, would have a small bonus (like +5%) to spellpower of all the spells of a particular element, irrespective of the Magic School they belong to. This would further differentiate the factions and also would satisfy Ubisoft's need to make religious system affect the gameplay in some way.
(later addition) The only assumption here is that spells of each element are distributed across HV-like Magic schools. For example: we play as Fortress and because their main element is Fire, they are going to get +5% bonus to all fire-based spells, like Frenzy and Fireball, even though these spells are in different Magic Schools: Frenzy in Magic of Occultism, Fireball in Magic of Destruction. I hope that now my concept is clear. 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 25, 2015 08:57 AM |
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I'm not entirely sure how you mean that, since Magic Schools already seem to be centered around elements. That would imply that a bonus to an element is actually a bonus to a specific school. Can you elaborate a bit more?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 09:58 AM |
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People, magic schools are set in stone. That is, the skill system and the magic schools. It's now the 7 schools of Ashan, and if you want my opinion, it's fine - but it should have been the main task of the designers to design a skill system that would not only accomodate it, but finally create something to last (since Ashan's 7 schools aof magic are obviously something to last).
Has something to do with design priorities: you know that 7 schools of magic are not only there, but also there to stay, so you MUST design a skill system around it that will support play.
What we have instead is a set of arbitrary limitations.
It's like you'd start to redesign battlefields and unit sizes based on hexes.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 25, 2015 11:26 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
you know that 7 schools of magic are not only there, but also there to stay, so you MUST design a skill system around it that will support play.
That is kinda the point of this thread. The elemental schools are not going anywhere, they are simply incorporated in a more supportive system.
No rush, H8 is not coming anytime soon 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 05:33 PM |
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It's unnecessary.
Imo, the whole idea as it is now is rather outdated and in parts redundant.
Also, thread title suggests something with a view on Heroes SEVEN (for VIII you don't need to salvage anything).
And as a sidenote, Elvin, if you are so unhappy with the system that - why was I the vocal minority to the point of quitting? Why didn't you put a bit more pressure on instead of asking questions that no one ever answered?
Fantasizing now about something way better is just, well. About as useful as fantasising about HoMM 7 something lkike 4 years ago.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 05:48 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 17:49, 25 Jun 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
And as a sidenote, Elvin, if you are so unhappy with the system that - why was I the vocal minority to the point of quitting? Why didn't you put a bit more pressure on instead of asking questions that no one ever answered?
What?!
Okay, can someone come CLEAN on the whole insider debacle in relation to Heroes 7?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 05:55 PM |
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It just occured to me that each faction (except academy) has access to only 5 schools of magic(no?). I mean sylvan will have access to prime,earth,water, air and light. So doesn't that kinda solve the problem of too many magic schools?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted June 25, 2015 06:16 PM |
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Don't factions have 1 banned school, not 2? That would make Magic Guild offer spells from 6 magic schools (except for Academy, obv).
And no, it doesn't fix the problem either. There is still a rather small amount of spells spread over 7 different Magic Schools. That's bad.
IMO Ubi put themselves on a corner with the 7 Magic Schools - because it's obvious they won't implement a healthy number of spells per school. Grouping spells into 4-5 Magic Schools, banning spells from certain element in each faction and limiting (but not banning!) the so called 'banned school' skill for heroes of that faction (so Haven heroes can achieve expert Dark Magic, but not Master level) would work very nicely.
It's plain obvious that the 7 Magic Schools will never work under Ubisoft management, so pushing for a change only makes sense.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 25, 2015 06:35 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
People, magic schools are set in stone. That is, the skill system and the magic schools. It's now the 7 schools of Ashan, and if you want my opinion, it's fine - but it should have been the main task of the designers to design a skill system that would not only accomodate it, but finally create something to last (since Ashan's 7 schools aof magic are obviously something to last).
Has something to do with design priorities: you know that 7 schools of magic are not only there, but also there to stay, so you MUST design a skill system around it that will support play.
What we have instead is a set of arbitrary limitations.
It's like you'd start to redesign battlefields and unit sizes based on hexes.
I still do not agree. Why? Because if you have too many spell schools, what would be their goal? H3 had them by elemental type, H4 had by alignment and H5 had it by this "goal" and H6 had by elemental ones again. And in my opinion, H5 had the best spell schools, because you could feel its "essence": Light was for blessing, Dark was for cursing, Destructive was for damaging and Summoning was for anything else (of course, there were deviations, but they fit in the school, more or less).
Seven schools? I could get dark is for cursing, Light for blessing, but what are others about? I can't see what is the sole focus of, for example, having water magic as a school.
Even so, why are there so many spells just to modify the eight spells one would cast (except Prime)?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 06:44 PM |
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It makes as much sense as pushing for a non-spider necropolis.
Also, it's a question of design priorities, as I said: if you know you'll get to have seven magic schools, no matter what, it should be clear that you'll have to put serious effort into the design to make things work.
In this case we have TWO flaws, immediately visible (probably more if you start thinking about it in ernest). The first flaw is the fact that there are only 8 spells for each school (although you have the same three skill levels than ever). The second flaw is the fact that the game design around the schools doesn't support learning many schools (and therefore many spells) anyway.
That will leave you with a very small number of actually usable spells (combat spells will get better with skill mastery and associated abilities).
Skill system also rewarding picking them all (automatically), you don't even have the point of "yeah, but you will have to pick your abilities carefully in order to develop your spells".
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 25, 2015 06:55 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
JollyJoker said:
People, magic schools are set in stone. That is, the skill system and the magic schools. It's now the 7 schools of Ashan, and if you want my opinion, it's fine - but it should have been the main task of the designers to design a skill system that would not only accomodate it, but finally create something to last (since Ashan's 7 schools aof magic are obviously something to last).
Has something to do with design priorities: you know that 7 schools of magic are not only there, but also there to stay, so you MUST design a skill system around it that will support play.
What we have instead is a set of arbitrary limitations.
It's like you'd start to redesign battlefields and unit sizes based on hexes.
I still do not agree. Why? Because if you have too many spell schools, what would be their goal? H3 had them by elemental type, H4 had by alignment and H5 had it by this "goal" and H6 had by elemental ones again. And in my opinion, H5 had the best spell schools, because you could feel its "essence": Light was for blessing, Dark was for cursing, Destructive was for damaging and Summoning was for anything else (of course, there were deviations, but they fit in the school, more or less).
Seven schools? I could get dark is for cursing, Light for blessing, but what are others about? I can't see what is the sole focus of, for example, having water magic as a school.
Even so, why are there so many spells just to modify the eight spells one would cast (except Prime)?
Look, it's an Ashan cornerstone. Seven darn dragons, with Sar-Issus beimng the 7th, "creating" Prime, seven darn schools of magic. NO DISCUSSION. Same as with Humans follow Elrath and are a bit zealous and all, Dwarves live underground, Dark Elves split from Sylvan Elves and all the rest.
Seven schools. Period.
And it shouldn't matter.
You can create a ton of water spells: Fog, Rot, Ice - all faces of water. You may have an adventure spells freezing an area of water (a ring of 7 hexes, for example). You can have Ice Bolts, Circle of Winter, Deep Freeze, Fog inhibiting shooters, Fog guarding your troops, fog on the adventure map, making part of the map invisible, you can have water waves, swamp, impassable BF hexes, Blizzard. You can have an Ice Armor, your weapons may deal initial water (cold) damage. You can Rot ships and War machines.
And if I think a bit I'll probably be able to come up with another bundle.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted June 25, 2015 06:57 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
It makes as much sense as pushing for a non-spider necropolis.
I disagree. The later is a retcon of the lore they have established, while the former isn't. I'm not saying it only because H5 already did something very similar, but because we aren't asking to change the lore (7 magic elements), but rather present them in a way that fits with the gameplay associated with a Heroes game.
A very different story is the chances of convincing Ubisoft, which I'll admit are rather slim.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 25, 2015 07:40 PM |
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Stevie said:
What?!
Okay, can someone come CLEAN on the whole insider debacle in relation to Heroes 7?
No.
JollyJoker said:
And as a sidenote, Elvin, if you are so unhappy with the system that - why was I the vocal minority to the point of quitting? Why didn't you put a bit more pressure on instead of asking questions that no one ever answered?
Erwan paid well.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted June 25, 2015 07:42 PM |
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Quote:
Erwan paid well.
Erwan doesn't pay, Erwan gets paid 
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Malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted June 28, 2015 01:52 PM |
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Edited by Malax83 at 13:53, 28 Jun 2015.
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7 schools means spells concentrated on a theme. It means more uniqueness whatever if there are or not more spells in overall.
So in all case, it could be harder to balance again, and again, cause in adding choices you add (obligado) complexity,
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 28, 2015 04:26 PM |
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Not necessarily.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted June 29, 2015 01:20 AM |
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Edited by Malax83 at 01:23, 29 Jun 2015.
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It s clearly a class hero developpement, scholls are most specialized than every other Heroes series. Each magic school have to bring something new compare to the other, what Ubi almost did.. But not enought good, for example, Prime can deal damage and have so many tricky spell (buff, curse, trick spell, summon, adventure spells...). Each schools should support a strategy and represent a class hero (earth magic : druid and shaman, dark magic : necromancers,..etc).
So,
Earth spells magic usefull on duration : 5/7 support spells, long fight,
Dark spells weaken ennemies, usefull on duration : 4/7 buff-curse + purge
Light spells protect and heal 3/7 + cleansing,
Fire spells is a damage dealer school : 4/7, and 2 buff / improvement
Water spells is a control/tricky school 3/7 + liquid membrane
Air spells is a control 2/7 and improvement school 2/7
Prime does everything... So it s unique too.
Only the Air school does not fit what i supposed. Others school has majority in a type of spells colored in red : support, weaken, protect, control, damage dealer, everything and .. air school..
H3 has about 17 spells per school (without adventure spells), i.e 68 spells,
H7 has about 7 spells per school, i.e 49 spells.
This is cool, there are more shcool and there are mostly different (except prime). So there is a plus-value compare to H3, i.e spells school like air or earth were more a tote bag,... even if you could do the same as well : water - protection, fire - damage dealer, ...
H7 make sense to me,
In conclusion, i will remove implosion and fix Air school (with a control spell for example)
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 29, 2015 01:44 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Look, it's an Ashan cornerstone. Seven darn dragons, with Sar-Issus beimng the 7th, "creating" Prime, seven darn schools of magic. NO DISCUSSION. Same as with Humans follow Elrath and are a bit zealous and all, Dwarves live underground, Dark Elves split from Sylvan Elves and all the rest.
Seven schools. Period.
it is literally just a load of steaming garbage though, just a completely arbitrary decision that the magic system MUST line up with lore, there is absolutely zero logical reason why this system cannot simply be bent to accommodate the game's painfully obvious needs, they just refuse to get real and make us all suffer lol
Enroth's magic system changed radically three times and I don't think a single player has ever complained about it, it was just an absolute non-issue, you would have to be the most out of touch, obsessive, bad priority, nitpicky joker to even begin thinking it is a big deal lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 07:56 AM |
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It makes no sense to discuss about the laws of nature your "facesake" deigns to decree for Ashan.
It also doesn't matter how many schools of magic you have. What matters is, though, how you make them work within the frame of the game.
Now, my dear verriker, the thing is this: if you build a house, and you have certain musthaves - say seven bathrooms -, you start by planning the house around them. What you don't do, though, is starting with a couple of ideas you would like - say, 2 gust rooms, an atrium because it looks nice, and a really big library with two snooker tables -, and if you finally have a plan for THOSE and look ready to finish things, you realize that space for your 7 bathroooms left isn't bigger than a shoe box, for 3 of them there is no access possible, and another 2 of them will be without the necessary pipes for water and drainage.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 29, 2015 02:54 PM |
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I will always discuss it whether Erwin wants to listen or not, because I think it is an absolutely unbelievable way to go about doing things
it's safe to seven bathrooms are not on the agenda for any client who is a sane person trying to create a humble house on a budget, lol
and what you don't ever do when building a fun game, is begin from the point "the lore says this so we are constrained", and go on to implement a near unworkable system with seven cumbersome, over-defined schools because you are told to, rather than because you want to or need to lol
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