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| Thread: Armorer vs Offense, and Tazar vs CragHack, Again | |
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Orc
Famous Hero
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posted June 26, 2015 06:17 AM |
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Edited by Orc at 06:33, 26 Jun 2015.
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Armorer vs Offense, and Tazar vs CragHack, Again
So,
I have read in some other threads LOOOOOOng ago, a statement sort of this:
"Crag Hack is better than Tazar until level 45 or so, and therefore Crag hack is always better practically speaking, because normal games do not reach that level" and he means at that level , expert armorer with Tazar's specialty will completely cancels Crag Hack's bonus offense.
Now, that statement is hypothetically comparing armorer and offense and there effect on the troops, just like how it is possible to compare 2 creatures in 1v1 match. It should not be a final comparison. Nonetheless, it is good initial comparison so lets build a little bit more on it.
considering that statement, it should be noted that the benifit from reduction can be converted into a benifit in damage output (thus measuring how some armorer reduction compare to offense bonus) by
Benift = 1/(1-Reduction)
This gives benifit of 2 reduction of 50% i.e. 50% reduction is as good as 100% bonus from offense
and 20% reduction is as good as 25% bonus damage
and 15% reduction is as good as 17.65% bonus damage
There is another thread I started discussing these calculations in so long block of text of you really want more on this but I think this is enough
Using this, it is actually at lvl 47 when armorer bonus becomes just better than offense bonus.
However, the reason why the quoted statement is wrong is because it does not take into account that armorer does work on ranged, whereas offense only gives bonus to melee units.
Adding this to the fact that many towns have 2 archers and 5 melee units, it should be fair enough to quantify the offense bonus more accurately by multiplying the offense bonus by 5 and then divide by 7 (you can also multiply offense bonus by 5 and multiply armorer bonus by 7 and then compare but I like the first way more)
Using this way, You will find that offense bonus at expert offense is 21.43%
Also, as calculated earlier, armoer bonus is 17.65%
as you notice offense is still better from this perspective. However, it is at lvl 20 when the two bonuses match, i.e. Tazar is as good as crag hack if both are at lvl 20 (both of the bonuses will be 42.86%)
I for sometime thought that designers did bad job balancing these two skills, but after these thoughts, I think they actually are fairly balanced. As a designer, I want the attack bonus to be better than the defense bonus, so that the game is not prolonged too much. I also have tried Wog armoer enhancement is more balanced (having 10%, 15%, 20% reduction) and I felt so over powered.
anyway, I think after all said above, it now boils down to the tactics of battle and synergies between these specialists and their armies how well they work together much more than they depend on these numbers, since they are pretty close anyway.
For Crag Hack:
1-) offense specialty and high attack gain senergize very well with ancient behemoths armor reduction ability
2-)Tazar + behemoth = lame: no damage :/ I tried it and I immediately regretted it!
3-)since offense specialty is for hand to hand damage, it benefits fortress pretty well. I haven't tried that though, but from theory, it should be about 25% which is much better than armorer
4-)offense work against spell casting heroes, armorer generally does not.
5-)offense work so well if you have the initiation, so offense specialist is good for fortress vs stronghold battle because serpant fly is faster.
For Tazar:
1-)High armoer + serpent fly weakness makes good use of Tazars armor.
2-)flyers can take lot of damage and do not die that easily
3-)Armorer in early games senergizes so well with first aid tent, especially with the -1 damage (attackers doing 14.00 damage instead of 15.00 vs tazar). Crag Hack does not have first aid tent in stronghold, and so he want to finish his enemy quickly: Tazar on the other hand CAN get first aid tent and CAN AND WANTS TO tank a lot of damage from creatures, because he can heal. Healing generally gets more effective with high armorer, but offense is irrelevant to healing (since I play wog I can control first aid with warfare secondery skill). and since I'm at it, I kind of like the -1 damage glitch, maybe it is not glitch after all: maybe it is tactical 
what I do is recruit 2 wyverns in first week, and split them into 2 stacks, which make me able to tank 140 damage + armoerer + the heal = pretty good
4-)armorer benefit is even more whith higher defense or mass stone skin or mass shield or mass air shield (think of 50% armoer reducion and 50% defense reduction or air sheild, benefit of each alone is 100%, making it 200% effective hitpoints, but the benefit of both together is actually 300% making 400% effective hitpoints)
So, what do you guys think? I am hoping that I have missed many more things on the synergy and combination of these secondary skills with different tactics.
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woj
Hired Hero
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posted June 26, 2015 03:34 PM |
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Orc said:
For Crag Hack:
1-) offense specialty and high attack gain senergize very well with ancient behemoths armor reduction ability
2-)Tazar + behemoth = lame: no damage :/ I tried it and I immediately regretted it!
3-)since offense specialty is for hand to hand damage, it benefits fortress pretty well. I haven't tried that though, but from theory, it should be about 25% which is much better than armorer
4-)offense work against spell casting heroes, armorer generally does not.
5-)offense work so well if you have the initiation, so offense specialist is good for fortress vs stronghold battle because serpant fly is faster.
2) what do you mean by that exactly?
3) offense specialty along with armourer and log is best game, so yes
4) it's a problem for fortress sometimes, at least for a noob like me, meeting Solmyr early maybe painful especially with slow ass creatures. Later on when you have enough artifacts and leveled up tazar you're good. BUt yeah I feel Stronghold has easier time vs spellcasters.
Orc said:
For Tazar:
1-)High armoer + serpent fly weakness makes good use of Tazars armor.
2-)flyers can take lot of damage and do not die that easily
3-)Armorer in early games senergizes so well with first aid tent, especially with the -1 damage (attackers doing 14.00 damage instead of 15.00 vs tazar). Crag Hack does not have first aid tent in stronghold, and so he want to finish his enemy quickly: Tazar on the other hand CAN get first aid tent and CAN AND WANTS TO tank a lot of damage from creatures, because he can heal. Healing generally gets more effective with high armorer, but offense is irrelevant to healing (since I play wog I can control first aid with warfare secondery skill). and since I'm at it, I kind of like the -1 damage glitch, maybe it is not glitch after all: maybe it is tactical
what I do is recruit 2 wyverns in first week, and split them into 2 stacks, which make me able to tank 140 damage + armoerer + the heal = pretty good
4-)armorer benefit is even more whith higher defense or mass stone skin or mass shield or mass air shield (think of 50% armoer reducion and 50% defense reduction or air sheild, benefit of each alone is 100%, making it 200% effective hitpoints, but the benefit of both together is actually 300% making 400% effective hitpoints)
1) ye hate losing flies 
2) yeah.. fortress fliers are low hp
3) good players have enough skill to get very little dmg from monsters so actually high attack value early on is better since you can make much more damage and win bigger fights early on. Also balista is useful. Try using balista with level1 Gerwulf  not very effective. tent is unrealiable, but sometimes tent + cure save me a wyvern or two
4) do not know the numbers, but Tazar + expert shield(adds to the armourer reduction) is something special and so annoying to the opponent 
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Orc
Famous Hero
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posted June 26, 2015 04:34 PM |
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woj said:
Orc said:
For Crag Hack:
2-)Tazar + behemoth = lame: no damage :/ I tried it and I immediately regretted it!
2) what do you mean by that exactly?
3) offense specialty along with armourer and log is best game, so yes
4) it's a problem for fortress sometimes, at least for a noob like me, meeting Solmyr early maybe painful especially with slow ass creatures. Later on when you have enough artifacts and leveled up tazar you're good. But yeah I feel Stronghold has easier time vs spell casters.
2)what I mean is that offense and high attack synergize so well with behemoths, whereas defense and armorer does not.
4)My strategy vs human solmyr is to have Tactics secondary skill. I will play first with serpant flies, and cast mass slow. fortress has speed 13, 11, and 3 of speed 7 (hydra, basilisks and mighty gorgon).
when you mix both armies up, somlyr can no longer hit all your units with chain lightning.
ofc this is assuming he is playing with tower
woj said:
Orc said:
4-)armorer benefit is even more whith higher defense or mass stone skin or mass shield or mass air shield (think of 50% armoer reducion and 50% defense reduction or air sheild, benefit of each alone is 100%, making it 200% effective hitpoints, but the benefit of both together is actually 300% making 400% effective hitpoints)
1) ye hate losing flies
2) yeah.. fortress fliers are low hp
3) good players have enough skill to get very little dmg from monsters so actually high attack value early on is better since you can make much more damage and win bigger fights early on. Also balista is useful. Try using balista with level1 Gerwulf not very effective. tent is unrealiable, but sometimes tent + cure save me a wyvern or two
4) do not know the numbers, but Tazar + expert shield(adds to the armourer reduction) is something special and so annoying to the opponent
3) why is tent unreliable? I tried tent + 2 wyverns vs about 36 or 42 centaurs (cant remember but they had 1 captain) and it worked withought losing any
4) another example of the numbers is:
Armorer + shield + advanced weakness (6 attack lower on enemy with serpent flies) assuming the two creatures have same attack and defense
damage absorbed will be 0.85 X 0.85 X 0.85 = 61.4% (because reduction is 38%)
which corresponds to bonus HP of 62.8% (1/0.614 = 1.628)
without armourer the bonus will be just 38.4%
if sheild was advanced it the bonus hp will be the bonus will be 97% (i.e. you each serpent fly can absorb about 40 damage before it dies)
but without armoers, the bonus hp will be just 68% (meaning about 34 damage the fly can abosorb before it dies)
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woj
Hired Hero
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posted June 26, 2015 08:14 PM |
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Edited by woj at 09:56, 27 Jun 2015.
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Orc said:
2)what I mean is that offense and high attack synergize so well with behemoths, whereas defense and armorer does not.
well AB is probably one of the best creatures beastmaster can add to his army
300hp + armorer + hero massive defense rating? - yes please..
fact that ABs ignore much of the target defense is great for beastmaster since usually they have quite low attack values.
Orc said:
4)My strategy vs human solmyr is to have Tactics secondary skill. I will play first with serpant flies, and cast mass slow. fortress has speed 13, 11, and 3 of speed 7 (hydra, basilisks and mighty gorgon).when you mix both armies up, somlyr can no longer hit all your units with chain lightning. ofc this is assuming he is playing with tower
tactics - agree, must have!
mixing forces - agree
slow - not always, he can counter the same and your fliers are f*****
depends what is his fastest creature and if you can reach it fast and take it out, to move your hydras and gorgons before him
last time I had that matchup I won, but that's largely thanks to pendant of negativity(I saw it across the map and went far far to get it )
I had tactics but not on expert, there was a rift about 8hex long on his side protecting his titans, we fought on snow(+1speed for tower, he had cape and ring so +4 speed to him lol) also I didn't have mass haste when he slowed me and with his artifacts he attacked with everything first, that is after i took a volley from all his shooters. Thank god for tazars armorer, he can take a lot of punishment
still i don't enjoy meeting spellcasters early with fortress, later on their power decreases compared to mine and I can get more arties
Orc said:
3) why is tent unreliable? I tried tent + 2 wyverns vs about 36 or 42 centaurs (cant remember but they had 1 captain) and it worked withought losing any
sometimes it restores very little health, id rather avoid being hit at all and use (1)gnoll to take retialation or first strike:]
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orc
Famous Hero
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posted July 10, 2015 08:48 AM |
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Edited by orc at 09:38, 10 Jul 2015.
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Something came to my mind: When comparing Tazar and Crag Hack, we should keep in mind that tazar can learn offense as well, and crag hack can learn armorer. so when comparing them, crag hack will not benifit that much from armorer (only 17%), whereas tazar will benifit that much from offense (30% or, if you will consider a full army with 2 ranged, only 21%).
so tazar wont have to wait to level 46 to catch up to crag hack. tazar is already doing more damage than crag hack at level 20 if both have expert armorer and expert offense. (wait I just did the calculations quickly in my head, I will edit the post later for some numbers if anyone wants)
Offense is not that hard to get anyway, just saying
Edit: its actually at level 26
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 08:22 PM |
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I prefer the armorer specialists.
Sometimes you can't pick your fights. If you need those crystals, and they are guarded by Grand Elves, then you have to fight them. In such cases a defensive hero will limit your losses early in the game, and those saved creatures make up for the lower offensive power.
Also, I feel if you don't get to move first, Tazar is doing much better than Hack.
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icare
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 29, 2015 03:00 AM |
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i choose any hero over both of them if that means i have logistics (like pyrre in tavern maybe)
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 29, 2015 06:32 AM |
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I have tried to make hypothetical comparison before, and the only answer is that every game is different, even slightly.
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