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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2015 04:16 PM |
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wait, who was elected by the people? the bankers and european bureaucrats? do they look like they respect the choices of people?
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 06, 2015 04:28 PM |
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Fauch said:
wait, who was elected by the people? the bankers and european bureaucrats? do they look like they respect the choices of people?
The people elected the politicians. The politicians in their turn have the power to control banks etc. It is a long chain but in the end the people in a democracy decides. That is the point of it all.
The problem is that this form of democracy uses a model that encourages polticians to procrastinate problems. It also gives the Ford model
"You can pick any color for your car as long as you pick black".
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2015 05:00 PM |
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2015 05:12 PM |
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since when politicians control banks? the ECB is independant, it doesn't follow orders from elected politicians.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 06, 2015 05:33 PM |
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Politicians do not have to control the banks directly (the opposite is much more likely in many cases). What he means is, people prefer to vote for a certain type of politician with an economic agenda that rather postpones the issues and their tight-budget solutions. This also involves the banks, even if they are not part of a strict hierarchy.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 06, 2015 05:42 PM |
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artu said:
Politicians do not have to control the banks directly (the opposite is much more likely in many cases). What he means is, people prefer to vote for a certain type of politician with an economic agenda that rather postpones the issues and their tight-budget solutions. This also involves the banks, even if they are not part of a strict hierarchy.
Precisely Artu, could not have said it better myself!
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2015 05:48 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 17:49, 06 Jul 2015.
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I doubt electing representants has much effects, people are basically giving up their power. slowing down things is the most politicians can do, but it still goes in the way of the troika.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 06, 2015 05:55 PM |
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Fauch said:
I doubt electing representants has much effects, people are basically giving up their power. slowing down things is the most politicians can do, but it still goes in the way of the troika.
It will indeed probably not have any effect seeing how banks and politicians cooperate. I am of the opinion that huge organs simply complicates things, removes responsibility and removes the democratic power from people.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 06, 2015 06:21 PM |
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phe said:
If deal of making agreement were dishonest it is invalid.
Financial lobby and foreign government are dishonest by corruption so they are criminals.
Banks like constant income so they lobby in dishonest way to make them.
Funny how you think the banks were the criminals but don't say a word about Greek leaders, which gave false arguments in order to get the money and grasp the voters. Banks do...what they always do: lend money. That's their job. Greek leaders asked for this money and they knew they can't pay back without serious reforms (heck, Greek retirement pensions are higher than in Germany!), yet they did it.
Look at Tsipras how insolent he is. As soon as he got the job, he incanted some voodoo curse about Germany, which (in his dreams) owes I don't know how many billions to Greece from 2nd ww. And now his photo while voting, he looks cool and relaxed, while his country is one feet in grave.
And about debts: before ever dreaming about not paying them, first they have to stop demanding more and more. Or, without European central bank, Greece can survive... 2 more days, thats all. After that, salaries and retirement pensions are delayed ad vitam ęternam. Hey, economy is a bit more complex than Heroes .
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phe
Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
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posted July 06, 2015 09:12 PM |
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Edited by phe at 18:44, 07 Jul 2015.
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Salamandre said:
Funny how you think the banks were the criminals but don't say a word about Greek leaders
I mentioned that politician making debts are corrupted by banks and foreign countries and should be severly punished.
Corruption cannot be taken as every day errand of banks.
I mentioned also that radical budget spendings reduction should be introduced.
Silly are creditors who granted loans instead of force reforms before that.
Salamandre said:
Economy is a bit more complex than Heroes .
Sound economy is simple. Let Greece try it on one of Greek islands.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2015 09:30 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:33, 06 Jul 2015.
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I have to admit Sal, you got told on that one. Sound economy is indeed simple. Conventionally, the way to recuperate from a financial crisis is to stimulate the economy by investing more and not by austerity measures. The biggest mistake Europe did in managing the regression was to cut wages and increase taxes, which inevitably leads to less spending and therefore even less funds for the next semester's budget. I mean, just look at the US, they didn't went the austerity way and they recovered much faster.
And yes, I also agree that some political leaders are after their own personal gain at the expense of the welfare of the country they lead. That is practically treason, undermining the national economy, and should be punished accordingly.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted July 06, 2015 09:46 PM |
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There's no single solution to a financial crisis, it has to be solved on a case by case basis. Even a fool can tell that trying to apply a one shoe fits all policy to numerous countries with different 'problems' is moronic. The root of the IMF's problems imho.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2015 10:40 PM |
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Stevie said:
Conventionally, the way to recuperate from a financial crisis is to stimulate the economy by investing more and not by austerity measures.
Conventionally you're also supposed to run a surplus when times are good, and Greece failed to do that. You can go into debt to do stimulus when you're starting out from a position of fiscal soundness, but if you're already in debt, you're in trouble.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 06, 2015 11:35 PM |
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phe said:
Silly are debtors who granted debts instead of force reforms before that.Sound economy is simple.
The debtors hoodwinked the creditors. I agree that the creditors should have thought thrice before granting the loans but alas both sides will take a beating now.
Economy is simple in the mind but in reality things change. Sal is correct in this case. In Heroes there won't be any twists and turns that can shake chessboard. But outside in the real world anything can happen. One can adapt a economic model that is normally a success but that does not make economy simple. Each model hangs on certain conditions, if those are disturbed or shattered the entire scheme of the economic model can be ruined.
The concept of economy is simple but to actually deploy it and bring out the expected results is not so easy.
As for ending up with a surplus during good times, look at the West. Most countries got huge debts, not just Greece. So neither this seems to be something that is easy to accomplish.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted July 07, 2015 12:18 AM |
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Ebonheart said:
As for ending up with a surplus during good times, look at the West. Most countries got huge debts, not just Greece. So neither this seems to be something that is easy to accomplish.
But most countries that have huge debts have solid economic bases to back them on
Greece didn't
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 07, 2015 12:35 AM |
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What I'm curious about is, why was the economy of Greece so irreversibly snowed up in the first place? Why not any other "lazy Mediterranean country" but Greece? They are not a war zone, haven't been for quite some time now, both for historical and geographical reasons, the place is a permanent tourist magnet, so you'll always have that as a national income, there is no political stigma or embargo... Why not, say Spain, but Greece? What's the story behind that?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 07, 2015 01:12 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 01:13, 07 Jul 2015.
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You must be behind on the news. Spain, Portugal and Italy are also in a bad position. They might follow on Greece's footsteps before long.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 07, 2015 01:27 AM |
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To be frank, economy is not my strong suit and I really don't follow the news about it day by day. I know they are not financial aces of the union but the amount of fuss about Greece is totally something else.
A lot of journalists here visit Greece, publish their observations, mostly they write people seem fine, they are aware times are though but it's not like they are acting like it's the end of the world, most of them (especially the young ones) still support membership of EU and the crisis is not seen as a regime changer.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 07, 2015 04:37 AM |
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Stevie said:
I have to admit Sal, you got told on that one. Sound economy is indeed simple. Conventionally, the way to recuperate from a financial crisis is to stimulate the economy by investing more and not by austerity measures. The biggest mistake Europe did in managing the regression was to cut wages and increase taxes, which inevitably leads to less spending and therefore even less funds for the next semester's budget. I mean, just look at the US, they didn't went the austerity way and they recovered much faster.
It's all circumstantial. Stimulating the economy by taking more debt can be a smart move if there is something to stimulate. Where are Greece's massive, internationally attractive universities? Where are its major resource projects? Where are the Greek-made automobiles flashing down streets from Milan to Japan? Where are its big inflow of immigrants that are hungry to work hard and play hard? Where is its large pool of highly skilled/educated workforce? Greece has no projection of strong economic growth. This is true today, it was true in 2008, and it was true 10 years before the crisis started. Taking on debt if you're going to grow is not only possible, but generally highly advisable. You take on debt when you go to college or technical school, but if it gives you access to higher paying employment it is worth it. If you take on debt and go to college to learn how to play the trombone, and then you get out of school and you're working at a supermarket, you're SOL because you're making a low income along with making loan payments. What makes Greece's finances so severe isn't just the debt in itself: it's what they've been using the debt money on.
But I'll tell you where all of these places are: nowhere, at least not in the necessary quantity. What you have is a neighboring Balkan country of tourist resorts and fishermen that played as a make-believe Western European country. Germany has large pensions because Germany can afford large pensions. Greece can't.
"Austerity" here is just another way of saying "Greece having the standard of living that it was suppose to have for the past 20 years". Greece isn't actually a very wealthy country and it never was. If there was an error committed, it was that austerity measures came a bit too abruptly, rather than allowing the Greeks to wean themselves off of their crack. It created an angry backlash, and now they have a government with a belligerent leader who is living in an alternate reality and thinks the troika is victimizing them because it has the nerve to not play the role of a nonstop charity organization, which other than austerity, is the only solution.
A) The rest of the EU just gives money to Greece on annual basis as a charity organization (but... not to countries that are even poorer?)
B) Austerity
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 07, 2015 05:16 AM |
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So, you're saying they overplayed the "hey, even the continent's name comes from our mythology" card and got accustomed to a higher standard than similar Eastern countries of the union?
I mean, it's true that their average national income is still quite high (figures from 2013), it's even a very common joke around here; for the last decade, Turkey's economy is considered to be going quite well by both international and local economists so people compare the numbers and say "oh, wish we were bankrupt like the Greeks."
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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