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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 07, 2015 05:26 AM |
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Greece took in a lot of debt and yet doesn't really have a developed infrastructure/service economy/industry to show for it. Too much of the money was squandered on pensions and benefits by popular parties that the Greeks voted in. Greece went to college to learn how to play the trombone and now it's working at a supermarket.
There are a lot of countries that have debt problems, but they're not throwing up the red flag because they still have strong economies with a decent amount of highly skilled workers, and subsequently, plenty of tax money to work into the government budget, a portion of which is used to make debt payments (which, by the way, is another piece of the puzzle: tax evasion in Greece is much higher than in many other European countries, which starved the government of its much-needed revenue).
When a government takes on debt, it can use the money to build roads, airports, train stations, bus routes, hospitals, develop resource projects, subsidize certain businesses, give out grants for research & development, etc, and this all helps people get jobs, some of which are higher paying jobs. All of these working people, of course, pay taxes, which gives the government money. If you take on debt, and then a lot of that borrowed money isn't actually used towards things that are going to help give you money back, you're in trouble. The government is making loan payments on its debt, and yet not getting any more tax money. So what is it suppose to do? It's forced to either hack parts of its budget on other services, or it simply doesn't make loan payments, which means that interest on those loans just keeps piling up.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
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Nerf Herder
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posted July 07, 2015 06:38 AM |
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Eurozone reacts to Greek vote
Not surprisingly, all of the somewhat sympathetic countries - except France which is borderline - are the southern countries that suffer some of the same risks Greece does. Germany, BeNeLux, Austria, and Finland are all pro-austerity.
Looks like the Greek "No" led to a boost in popularity with Spain's own anti-austerity party. That's a much bigger deal.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 07, 2015 08:17 AM |
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A lot of people here seem to think that the cunning Greek scoundrels managed to trick the honest but naive IMF/EU folks into giving more and more loans that the former never intended to repay.
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Fauch
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 07, 2015 03:36 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
When a government takes on debt, it can use the money to build roads, airports, train stations, bus routes, hospitals, develop resource projects, subsidize certain businesses, give out grants for research & development, etc, and this all helps people get jobs, some of which are higher paying jobs. All of these working people, of course, pay taxes, which gives the government money. If you take on debt, and then a lot of that borrowed money isn't actually used towards things that are going to help give you money back, you're in trouble. The government is making loan payments on its debt, and yet not getting any more tax money. So what is it suppose to do? It's forced to either hack parts of its budget on other services, or it simply doesn't make loan payments, which means that interest on those loans just keeps piling up.
there's something I don't get, how do high paying jobs and taxes help if all the money in circulation comes from debts? unless you get some extra money from the outside, you don't have enough in circulation to repay the debt + the interests?
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted July 07, 2015 05:08 PM |
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In Fauchland, there are 100 thousand working people that make an average salary of 15K. 25% of their money goes to taxes. The government collect 375 million dollars a year. Fauchland borrows some money from creditors and invests in infrastructure development to help people & businesses move around and commute. 10 years later, Fauchland has 110 thousand working people and an average salary of 17K. The government now collects 467.5 million dollars a year. It uses its extra money to make loan payments to gradually pay off its debt, while still having extra money to fit into its budget.
In Greekland, the government borrows money and then it gets sucked up into pensions that are just as generous as Germany's despite significantly lower salaries and far less taxes being collected. There is virtually no economic growth or rise in salaries. The government has loan payments that it didn't have 30 years ago and it's still collecting no more money (or less) than it always was. Its population also screws the government over on a regular basis with tax evasion. Greekland goes bankrupt and is delinquent on its loan payments, and appeals to Germany for help. Germany demands austerity. Greekland villainizes Germany for being cruel and appoints an anti-austerity leader. Blizzardboy shakes his head.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 07, 2015 06:01 PM |
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From New Yorker
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Fauch
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 07, 2015 06:51 PM |
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I dunno, what it tells me is that the debt and GNP increased together.
and when you repay the debt, it's the contrary.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
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Nerf Herder
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posted July 08, 2015 02:17 AM |
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Greece has until Thursday to respond with a new plan. THE SUSPENSE. I haven't been this excited since the Women's World Cup... which was like 4 days ago. Grab an extra large bag of Cheetos and some Mountain Dew.
Taking wagers. Is it going to be in the Eurozone or out? Who am I kidding. This will probably just miserably drag on for another 3 months.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Stevie
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 08, 2015 02:40 AM |
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It's definitely out for me. I'd be surprised if Greece received another emergency credit in spite of all the northern rage and the referendum vote. The sooner they leave, the sooner they can start rebuilding their economy.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 08, 2015 08:15 AM |
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If Greece leaves the eurozone, it will soon be reduced to what it essentially is from the start - an economic-evolved-into-monetary union of Western European countries. Pretty much the entire Eastern Europe is in the EU mostly because of geopolitical reasons + cheap labour for outsourcing services and a dump for low-quality production (and this is especially true for the Balkan members) - no real economic benefit for the rest of the Union, let alone the eurozone.
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Fauch
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 08, 2015 03:18 PM |
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not sure they want to create a precedent with all the eurosceptics in the different countries
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 08, 2015 08:32 PM |
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I'd say the UK currently bakes even bigger problems for the EU but waits for the outcome of the Greek drama to play its card. What's certain is that the whole Union and particularly its de facto governors from Germany and France need to stop talking only about reforms in other countries and start talking about reforms of the whole structure. You can't have a major economic difference between the West and East and even more between North and South and pretend that we are all one big happy family where Mother and Father occasionally have to enforce discipline on the naughty children.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 08, 2015 10:21 PM |
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Zenofex said:
I'd say the UK currently bakes even bigger problems for the EU but waits for the outcome of the Greek drama to play its card. What's certain is that the whole Union and particularly its de facto governors from Germany and France need to stop talking only about reforms in other countries and start talking about reforms of the whole structure. You can't have a major economic difference between the West and East and even more between North and South and pretend that we are all one big happy family where Mother and Father occasionally have to enforce discipline on the naughty children.
What really should be done is disbanding the EU. Big organs aren't better because they are big (something that too many seem to think these days). Utterly few got any clue of what is decided within the EU parliament and so not only is that bad, but it can allow the most insane decisions to go through seeing how a few hundred people can decide for millions.
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Zenofex
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Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 09, 2015 08:34 PM |
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The EU should not disband or at the very least, the idea for united Europe should not be abandoned. The Union guarantees stability and encourages cooperation throughout the entire continent - something incredibly valuable provided the plethora of smouldering conflicts and slumbering rivalries which are far from harmless. It certainly needs to rethink its internal structure though, that's for sure.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 09, 2015 09:24 PM |
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Zenofex said:
The EU should not disband or at the very least, the idea for united Europe should not be abandoned. The Union guarantees stability and encourages cooperation throughout the entire continent - something incredibly valuable provided the plethora of smouldering conflicts and slumbering rivalries which are far from harmless. It certainly needs to rethink its internal structure though, that's for sure.
The EU should disband, for there is simply no need for it. The EU is not like the UN, RC etc. It is best that each country handles its own political matters. After all, why should someone have a say in a matter that does not really concern them?
The EU does not guarantee stability, it can make it more stable but also unstable (just look on Greece and how it affects the EU). As for cooperation, you can cooperate without EU and don't delude yourself into thinking that EU only makes it easier, it does create a lot of conflicts aswell.
As for the conflict part. If people feel that the EU is needed to keep the peace and stability then perhaps they should start to work on their own fears. Sadly wars come and go, but you already got a multitude of organs to prevent that, not to mention the internet (which in my opinion, is the best anti-war contraption ever) will obviate attempts to stir people up for war.
I respect your opinion on the EU though, it does carry some good things with it (everything does after all).
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phe
Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
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posted July 09, 2015 09:59 PM |
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Edited by phe at 22:01, 09 Jul 2015.
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EU should be disbanded. Free trade is enough. It is better if countries stand like they were before.
EU has poor basis (no basic honesty, tolerating homosexualism, abortion, trade unions, budget deficits, granting loans instead of cancellation of debts, common agrar policy and lobbies), bureaucracy and silly regulations.
Germany, France and their puppets are evil. Their policies invoke conflicts. They mistreat eurosceptics.
Because of them such genocides like Bieslan were organised. They should be punished for their genocides along with USA, Russia and other vile countries and organizations.
DO NOT VOTE !!! PROTEST !!!
http://lifeandfreedom.freewebhost.co.nz/index2.html
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 09, 2015 10:09 PM |
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The EU is indeed nothing like the UN, mostly because the UN is totally worthless. By design, on top of all. The idea behind the EU is not world peace and love but creating a framework for peaceful coexistence and eventually prosperity of dozens of nations which otherwise tend to jump at each others' throats every 20-30 years. How this evolved into what it is today is another story.
Greece is not EU's own handiwork. Greece was initially important for NATO and then it became somewhat important for the would-be EU (if you check the expansion of the Union eastward, you'll encounter this story again and again, for different countries - latest example is Ukraine). Frankly the entire Southern Europe is in a similar state without direct geopolitical explanation for the crazy accumulation of foreign debt but then again - that's still not EU's fault alone, the global economy is set up like that at the moment. You will find similar GDP-to-debt ratios elsewhere in the world, the absolute numbers of the US and Japan for example are MUCH more ridiculous.
The stability part is not fearmongering, just reading history without pink glasses. Europe does need a mechanism to prevent wars and large conflicts and the EU has a good foundation for that.
Internet can be used for spreading information and disinformation, like any other media. You give it more credit than it deserves.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 09, 2015 10:51 PM |
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Zenofex said:
The EU is indeed nothing like the UN, mostly because the UN is totally worthless. By design, on top of all. The idea behind the EU is not world peace and love but creating a framework for peaceful coexistence and eventually prosperity of dozens of nations which otherwise tend to jump at each others' throats every 20-30 years. How this evolved into what it is today is another story.
Somehow I don't think I managed to reach out to you. My main point is: It is not a good idea for people who live at place X to decide for people who live at place Y . The EU is perfect for that and it also boosts the egoistic greed for power within people to entirely new levels. We think we are so smart and that staying in a big pack like animals will somehow make us more safe, when it is our egos and greed that tears most good things we do apart.
The question regarding the "jumping on eachother's throat" part, has it ever struck you that our current democratic model might be to blame for that and not the lack of a colossal parliament?
Zenofex said:
Greece is not EU's own handiwork. Greece was initially important for NATO and then it became somewhat important for the would-be EU (if you check the expansion of the Union eastward, you'll encounter this story again and again, for different countries - latest example is Ukraine). Frankly the entire Southern Europe is in a similar state without direct geopolitical explanation for the crazy accumulation of foreign debt but then again - that's still not EU's fault alone, the global economy is set up like that at the moment. You will find similar GDP-to-debt ratios elsewhere in the world, the absolute numbers of the US and Japan for example are MUCH more ridiculous.
It does not matter if it is EU's own handiwork or not since the point of EU is to bring all in to the fold. Their problems will therefor become EU's. Now the problem here is once again that EU and Nato are two very different things. While Nato might seek military cooperation and thus have a reason for bringing all into the fold, EU don't. Like you said yourself, many of the southern countries have critical issues with debts and so why would EU want them unless there was an unspoken agenda for what the people would probably not agree to?
Also the strong countries now also got more debts and if tied by the euro those debts can be hard to repay.
Zenofex said:
The stability part is not fearmongering, just reading history without pink glasses. Europe does need a mechanism to prevent wars and large conflicts and the EU has a good foundation for that.
Internet can be used for spreading information and disinformation, like any other media. You give it more credit than it deserves.
Then how could you miss the obvious fact that it is the democratic form itself that allow these wars to happen? It is difficult to convince people in a direct democracy to resort to war but with the current democratic system it is a lot easier. Like I've said before, there is no difference between 1 and 349 people making the decisions, it is still too few that decide in matters that concerns too many.
I also don't give the internet more credit than it deserves. To be frank, I give it too little. The internet is a source of communication and connection. Without it mainstream media is able to indoctrinate and manipulate people at will since there is no alternative to find information from besides the newspapers presented. Now with the internet, people have even more freedom than before and can so build their own opinion of things and not buy the opinion of a journalist with his own political ideas. Even though you can spread disinformation on the internet, it is much more difficult due to the amount of information out there.
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mvassilev
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posted July 09, 2015 11:15 PM |
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phe said:
EU has poor basis (no basic honesty, tolerating homosexualism, abortion, trade unions, budget deficits, granting loans instead of cancellation of debts, common agrar policy and lobbies), bureaucracy and silly regulations.
That's an interesting combination of problems.
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Stevie
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posted July 09, 2015 11:27 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:28, 09 Jul 2015.
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