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| Thread: Hero Specialisation |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted July 07, 2015 09:30 AM |
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Edited by NACHOOOO at 09:43, 07 Jul 2015.
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Hero Specialisation
The hero that you choose to play as greatly affects game play, and it is something that is an area of concern for me with MMH7 as there are a lot of heroes revealed so far with the very bland and generic increase creature growth in area of control specialties. Creature growth increase heroes are destined to be “support” or errand boys every time, and offer nothing more to game play than that. Everything that you could ever want out of that hero you get as long as they are in the game, even if the only thing you use them for is shuttling your troops from your town to your main hero. With this in mind, I wanted to take this opportunity to plead my case to Limbic to really put some thought into how the specialties work for MMH7.
In my opinion, there should be three different types of hero specialties. Immediate bonus specialties that help with rushing in the early game, long game specialties that get stronger as your hero does, and support heroes like the generic creature growth specialists, although these aren’t a necessity.
Immediate Bonus Specialty:
The idea is that your hero gains an immediate bonus that is strong for the first few weeks of the game, but ultimately becomes weaker when compared to your percentage based alternatives.
This allows for aggressive early game play, and is especially good for smaller maps.
An example of this would be a magic hero starting with extra mana. This obviously allows them to cast spells more often, and this could be the difference in key battles during early game.
This is pretty straight forward and I have no suggestions other than there should be a couple of these types of guys per faction to allow for that play style.
Support Specialty:
These are your errand boy heroes, the secondary, tertiary heroes that you only ever buy because they give you a passive bonus without the need for them to do anything specific, and because they can run troops from your town to your main hero. No one ever makes them their main guy, and if they do it’s a waste of time.
An example of this is as mentioned previously, x% increase in specific creature production per week in area of control. Once that hero is in the game, you’ve just got to keep it alive to gain its benefits.
There should be a minimal amount of these heroes in the game, and to be honest, if they weren’t to exist at all the game wouldn’t be worse for it because if every faction has them, they’re all getting the same benefits, so what’s the point?
Long Game:
This is where it gets fun, and there can be a lot of creativity with how a hero develops throughout the game, but this needs more development from what I’ve seen thus far.
I have a bunch of ideas how these specialties could be improved, some of them original, some borrowed from previous games.
- Percentage Based Specialties
These are pretty straight forward, but still have some wiggle room for different interpretations. They work because no matter what level the hero gets to, or the number of troops under their control, a percentage will maintain its effectiveness throughout the game.
E.g. 1 – Magic – Light Spells are X% more effective for this hero
- Might – Sentinels retaliate with X% more damage
E.g. 2 – Magic – Hero starts the game with fireball and casts it with X% more effectiveness.
- Might – Hero starts with battle frenzy ability and it is X% more effective
E.g 3 – Magic – Hero gains extra X% mana, per hero level
- Might – Basilisk Riders gain X% to damage, per hero level
- Creature Based Specialties
These guys at the moment seem to be getting the X% creature population increase per week which is such a waste. There are some really awesome things that you could do here, there’s the percentage based stuff like I mentioned above, but here’s another suggestion.
For every 5 levels of the hero, a new bonus is unlocked for the creature that is their specialty. This makes it really interesting as getting to each new tier becomes a specific goal for developing that hero.
E.g. 1 – Golems
Hero level 5: Golems in the heroes army have X% bonus to might defense
Hero level 10: X% increase to health
Hero level 15: Golems have an extra retaliation
E.g. 2 – Harpies
Hero level 5: Harpies in the heroes army have X% bonus to initiative
Hero level 10: X% bonus to attack
Hero level 15: Harpies gain an extra 2 movement points during battle
Or, if you wanted to go down the increase in that particular creature type population, you could have a certain number of that creature type join the heroes army per week depending on the hero level. Even if it’s just one core creature per level, it’s still a nice little bonus to get extra troops regardless of where your hero is on the world map.
These are the kinds of things that would make me want to play all of the different heroes, and play them lots of different times seeing how the different skills work with their specialty. The biggest thing is it would be fun! Please remove the terribly boring X% increase to creature population in the area of control type heroes, and replace them with something similar to what I’ve suggested. I promise you it will increase replayability and enjoyment of the game.
I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks, and I really hope that someone at Limbic sees the potential in these ideas.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 07, 2015 11:29 AM |
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Been discussed before. People cared more for aesthetics, dunno if anyone tried to push this idea to the devs. It hurts to talk about it..
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted July 07, 2015 11:35 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Been discussed before. People cared more for aesthetics, dunno if anyone tried to push this idea to the devs. It hurts to talk about it..
Well here's our chance mate. If we can get the devs to see how important things like this are to the game play then maybe we can get them to take notice. I just hope those people who do care about this don't just sit back and be silent on the subject
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted July 07, 2015 11:40 AM |
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NACHOOOO said:
ChrisD1 said:
Been discussed before. People cared more for aesthetics, dunno if anyone tried to push this idea to the devs. It hurts to talk about it..
Well here's our chance mate. If we can get the devs to see how important things like this are to the game play then maybe we can get them to take notice. I just hope those people who do care about this don't just sit back and be silent on the subject
Eh, we tried countless times, not just on hero specializations. As if you needed to go straight to their HQ and present them with papers that state "Improve hero specializations!" or something to get their attention.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 07, 2015 11:40 AM |
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NACHOOOO said:
ChrisD1 said:
Been discussed before. People cared more for aesthetics, dunno if anyone tried to push this idea to the devs. It hurts to talk about it..
Well here's our chance mate. If we can get the devs to see how important things like this are to the game play then maybe we can get them to take notice. I just hope those people who do care about this don't just sit back and be silent on the subject
My eternal question. Do the devs see stuff here? Is anyone here to directly send smth to the devs? Did anyone on the fan meeting discussed this subject? What happened?
I can make another post at ubi forums but I'm afraid they only answer to uproars (#gurs,necropolis units)
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted July 07, 2015 11:46 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
NACHOOOO said:
ChrisD1 said:
Been discussed before. People cared more for aesthetics, dunno if anyone tried to push this idea to the devs. It hurts to talk about it..
Well here's our chance mate. If we can get the devs to see how important things like this are to the game play then maybe we can get them to take notice. I just hope those people who do care about this don't just sit back and be silent on the subject
My eternal question. Do the devs see stuff here? Is anyone here to directly send smth to the devs? Did anyone on the fan meeting discussed this subject? What happened?
I can make another post at ubi forums but I'm afraid they only answer to uproars (#gurs,necropolis units)
Well I heard one guy came here and asked some questions for the fans, but this was before I even joined here.
Besides some talk with Marzhin and Ubi-Nox's messages (here and H7 site), nothing else.
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted July 07, 2015 11:49 AM |
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Edited by NACHOOOO at 12:08, 07 Jul 2015.
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EnergyZ said:
ChrisD1 said:
NACHOOOO said:
ChrisD1 said:
Been discussed before. People cared more for aesthetics, dunno if anyone tried to push this idea to the devs. It hurts to talk about it..
Well here's our chance mate. If we can get the devs to see how important things like this are to the game play then maybe we can get them to take notice. I just hope those people who do care about this don't just sit back and be silent on the subject
My eternal question. Do the devs see stuff here? Is anyone here to directly send smth to the devs? Did anyone on the fan meeting discussed this subject? What happened?
I can make another post at ubi forums but I'm afraid they only answer to uproars (#gurs,necropolis units)
Well I heard one guy came here and asked some questions for the fans, but this was before I even joined here.
Besides some talk with Marzhin and Ubi-Nox's messages (here and H7 site), nothing else.
I've posted this here, on the ubi mmh7 forums, put a link on the mmh7 official website and HC messaged Marzhin. Spamming a little bit, but this kind of thing needs to get to the devs and I love this franchise too much to just sit back and let them roll out a sub par game. MMH7 is supposed to redeem this series after the disaster that was MMH6. So many things are STILL broken in that game, it's not good enough
Progress? http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1208326-Hero-Specialisation
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 07, 2015 11:56 AM |
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NACHOOOO said:
Progress? http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1208326-Hero-Specialisation
You actually got a response!! You re like my hero! If they fix any of the specialozations because of this Im going to kiss you!!!
What's your opinion on the creatures abilities? Don't they seem a little repetetive?
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted July 07, 2015 12:07 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
NACHOOOO said:
Progress? http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1208326-Hero-Specialisation
You actually got a response!! You re like my hero! If they fix any of the specialozations because of this Im going to kiss you!!!
What's your opinion on the creatures abilities? Don't they seem a little repetetive?
hahahahaha, oh man, I'm freakin cheering so hard.
Like unfettered and no retaliation? A little bit, I know a lot of people thought there were too many abilities in mmh6, but imo they've stripped it back too far in mmh7. It almost seems forced, like flying, why do no flying creatures have it listed as an ability?
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 07, 2015 12:15 PM |
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NACHOOOO said:
hahahahaha, oh man, I'm freakin cheering so hard.
Like unfettered and no retaliation? A little bit, I know a lot of people thought there were too many abilities in mmh6, but imo they've stripped it back too far in mmh7. It almost seems forced, like flying, why do no flying creatures have it listed as an ability?
Indeed they overdid it and we ll have to wait to see if it affects gameplay. Golem is aunit with low initiave so unfettered does nothing for that unit. I made a yhread about that too but no response...
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted July 07, 2015 12:20 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Indeed they overdid it and we ll have to wait to see if it affects gameplay. Golem is aunit with low initiave so unfettered does nothing for that unit. I made a yhread about that too but no response...
Initiative stuff would not be helpful, but unfettered sounds as though their movement would not be able to be reduced in battle either so it's not a complete loss
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 07, 2015 12:33 PM |
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NACHOOOO said:
ChrisD1 said:
Indeed they overdid it and we ll have to wait to see if it affects gameplay. Golem is aunit with low initiave so unfettered does nothing for that unit. I made a yhread about that too but no response...
Initiative stuff would not be helpful, but unfettered sounds as though their movement would not be able to be reduced in battle either so it's not a complete loss
No i meant that there is no reason for unfettered since their initiative is low. They will be mostly dead until they actually reach you because they'll play probably after your shooters.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 07, 2015 02:25 PM |
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I completely disagree with your suggested system - it segregates the heroes into main or secondary - you are never going to choose a support hero as a main, since you must leave that hero in the AoC in order to get those bonuses. That's plain bad design.
Furthermore, Percentage based specialties are flawed. They are extremely difficult to balance and keep things fair between all the different heroes. In Heroes 3 Logistics, Armorer and Offense (in that order) specialists are miles ahead of any other hero*. In Heroes 5 Wyngaal and Haggash could decide the battle on their first turn because of their initial attack. Deleb was a monster when creeping with her ssj ballista. It's simply too difficutl to keep specialties balanced, useful on early game and not overpowered on the late game, borderline impossible.
IMO the way to get rid of % based specialties, instead establish a scale model for all heroes, keeping the initial bonus small but noticeable yet reward leveling. It's a system I suggested before but I don't recall introducing it properly, so I'll do it this time giving a couple of examples:
Example #1: Creature specialty
Level 1: Increases the Attack and Defense of the creature by x.
Level 5: Increases the production of *creature* by x/week in the Area of Control.
Level 10: Increases the Initiative of the creature by x.
Level 15: Increases the Attack and Defense of the creature by x.
Level 20: Increases the Hit Points of the creature by x.
Level 25: Grants the creature a new ability/current active ability is stronger.
Level 30: Increases the Speed of the creature by x.
Example #2: Magic School specialty
Level 1: Hero starts with a spell from Magic School *Magic School*.
Level 5: Increases Spell Power by x when casting spells of the Magic School of *Magic School*.
Level 10: Increases hero mana regeneration by x.
Level 15: Increases Spell Power by x when casting spells of the Magic School of *Magic School*.
Level 20: At the start of combat, the hero cast a random level 1 spell of the Magic School *Magic School* to a random target, for no mana nor action cost.
Level 25: Increases Spell Power by x when casting spells of the Magic School of *Magic School*.
Level 30: At the start of combat, the hero cast a random level 2 spell of the Magic School *Magic School* to a random target, for no mana nor action cost.
This are the two most generic specialties I could think of. More exotic ones could follow, but it's important to avoid overlapping with the skill system (for instance, I can see Economy specialties increasing gold & resources income with higher levels if not other bonuses, but I find trouble thinking of a Explorer specialty since it'd be the same than the Explorer skill I have in my mind, with if different perks (h5 style)).
I may also add that the order of the bonuses isn't necessarily set in stone, it could be altered to spice it up.
Pros and cons:
+ Hero specialty stays relevant in the game, from early to late game.
+ More varied specialties, they aren't limited to boosting one single aspect.
+ Easier to balance, since they don't focus on one single aspect but rather provide small bonuses on several of them.
- More difficult to implement (more work to the developer).
- Increased difficulty in coming up with new unique specialties for all heroes of each faction (you may end up partially repeating some of them for that reason).
I sincerely wish one day we would see a system akin to this one, it would be so much fun 
* (except maybe Galthram, but that's because Necromancy and the initial lot of skeletons he brings when hired lol)
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted July 07, 2015 02:50 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
I completely disagree with your suggested system - it segregates the heroes into main or secondary - you are never going to choose a support hero as a main, since you must leave that hero in the AoC in order to get those bonuses. That's plain bad design.
Furthermore, Percentage based specialties are flawed. They are extremely difficult to balance and keep things fair between all the different heroes.
The whole main and secondary point was the entire reason I wrote this, maybe try reading my post again (or properly?).
There are tools to ensure that these are balanced, and I've also added alternative suggestions
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 07, 2015 02:55 PM |
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NACHOOOO said:
The whole main and secondary point was the entire reason I wrote this, maybe try reading my post again (or properly?).
And I'm totally opposed to that, hence my post.
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted July 07, 2015 03:08 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
NACHOOOO said:
The whole main and secondary point was the entire reason I wrote this, maybe try reading my post again (or properly?).
And I'm totally opposed to that, hence my post.
And again I suggest you try reading once more
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 07, 2015 03:21 PM |
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Again, I don't see what I'm supposed to find. I simply don't like your idea, I see much to lose and very little to gain with it. Not to mention it completely snows up the starting random hero, since it may be a good one or it may suck big time.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 07, 2015 03:23 PM |
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i just want specializations that makes sure all heroes are worthy of leveling up and using as a main, man. is that too much to ask?
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted July 07, 2015 03:35 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
i just want specializations that makes sure all heroes are worthy of leveling up and using as a main, man. is that too much to ask?
Agreed 100%, that's what I'm hoping we can make clear to the devs
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 07, 2015 03:59 PM |
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I have brought this up before, here and in the closed forum. We'll see.
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