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| Thread: Sexism and the like and how to avoid it |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted July 26, 2015 05:37 PM |
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Quote:
I don't think anyone wants to be a jerk. I want to help people realize when they are so they can take necessary precautions to not be it and expect the same thing in return: I want people to call me out when I'm a jerk. Because I will be. It's natural. No one is a lesser person until they start defending bad behaviour.
You are somewhat wrong. Some people want to be jerks. Some people find it a way to exact their superiority, or have no humanity centre in their brains, lacking in empathy or conscience.
I'm an arrogant prick and I don't usually care if I will be called out or not. It's just how I am, I'm fundamentally not meant to agree with people who are weak-willed or overly zealous. And I will be a jerk. It's natural. It's understanding why you do what you do that matters.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 26, 2015 05:45 PM |
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And sorry to smash the young heart's dreams here, but actually women prefer jerks. No matter how loud they deny it, this is part of the incomprehensible feminine logic fred joked about.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 26, 2015 05:55 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
I don't think just because it's worse one place, one shouldn't do something here, but I DON'T SEE any sexism here. I don't think Fred is a sexist culprit. I think the point is about being able to know when to fight ones battles / pick the right battles... I don't know how much of Fred's post you've read, but I don't see him as woman hating in any way.
Hence why i think it's important to call it out. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.
It's that way with Fred as well. I don't think he hates women which makes it more important to point out when what he says conveys that he might be. It's simply about making people aware of things they say can be sexist, whether they mean it or not. If what you say come off as something else then what you intended. Knowing you have a problem and realising it is the first step to fixing said problem. If you want to fix it of course.
TDL said:
I'm an arrogant prick and I don't usually care if I will be called out or not. It's just how I am, I'm fundamentally not meant to agree with people who are weak-willed or overly zealous. And I will be a jerk. It's natural. It's understanding why you do what you do that matters.
At least you know? I'm not sure how to respond. Maybe not be a jerk about things people can't change, like gender, ethnicity and orientation?
Salamandre said:
And sorry to smash the young heart's dreams here, but actually women prefer jerks. No matter how loud they deny it, this is part of the incomprehensible feminine logic fred joked about.
If that even was true (which it's not) it's a result of the sexism I've brought up. But this isn't the place for that discussion. This is about how to find and avoid it here.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2015 06:06 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 18:08, 26 Jul 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
It's that way with Fred as well. I don't think he hates women which makes it more important to point out when what he says conveys that he might be. It's simply about making people aware of things they say can be sexist, whether they mean it or not. If what you say come off as something else then what you intended. Knowing you have a problem and realising it is the first step to fixing said problem. If you want to fix it of course.
i said in the statement that got you and adrius upset, that "that might sound sexist". i am quite aware of what i said, and i've had to defend the reasoning behind that one statement multiple times in that thread, and now in this thread. let it go already, we are all quite aware that it sounded sexist. and we are all aware(or should be), that it was in good humor that i even posted it. my good humor is now gone. you and adrius have blown some dumb asshatery wayyyy out of proportion.
here is the what i said:
fred79 said:
however sexist that may sound
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2015 06:28 PM |
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nowadays anything you say may be considered sexist or racist...
especially in political battles.
don't forget those loudest guys often use double language, when they claim to be democratic, anti-racism/sexism/fascism, etc, they often are the complete opposite. wolves disguised as sheeps.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 26, 2015 06:30 PM |
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Quote:
This is about how to find and avoid it here.
If you haven't noticed, nobody here really cares how to "find and avoid" sexism, mostly because they don't see it in such a shallow textbook way as you. There's one fundamental problem with such an attitude - you assume you are totally right and what's more, that you actually have the wisdom and the experience to "spread the word" or whatever nonsense might be lurking in your head. Where from? You've had 20+ relationships with women, talked to a thousand of them, know them all well enough to make claims? Or you just want to advertise yourself on the Internetz? Doesn't work like that, drop it.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted July 26, 2015 06:40 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Hence why i think it's important to call it out. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.
Not what I meant with cherry picking your battles. 
Another thing to consider with the whole subject, same goes for many of these kinds of subjects such as racism, is that you're defending someone you're not a group of. I don't think it's wrong to do, but it means it may look like you're offended on someone else's behalf, which makes a stand point look weak if people doesn't already agree with you. It doesn't mean only woman should advocate feminism, but I think it means one should be careful with being too small-minded.
So if e.g. meroe said she took issue with what Fred wrote because she identified with what he said I think it'd have been different.
Of course I may be way off on that one.
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Living time backwards
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 26, 2015 06:42 PM |
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fred79 said:
fred79 said:
however sexist that may sound
Being aware of the problem doesn't make it less of a problem
@Zenofex
Would you rather live in a world where some people have a distinct advantage while others have a distinct disadvantage and can't even pursue their dreams simply due to being born with certain bodyparts? That's all i care about. I don't care one bit about my own so-called "internet fame". I just want everyone to feel welcome and accepted.
What matters the most? Your minor inconvenience or harassment, assault, unequal pay, objectification and so on. If what it takes to make half the population being able to feel secure and accepted is well worth having to think for 2 seconds before saying something.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted July 26, 2015 06:44 PM |
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The sad reality of things is that bigotry will never be fully eradicated. People will always get offended by something at a certain point. It's the price we all pay for human interaction.
What we CAN do about it is simple: we embrace what we have in common and bond based on this, and respect our differences. We can't all be the same and thank the gods for that, as the world would be boring.
I really, REALLY hate sexism though and it annoys me whenever I see it. Yes, men and women are different, in the same way each man and every woman is different. People of the same biological sex tend to behave through certain patterns due to a combination of social molding and hormones, but generalizing among gender lines is prejudicial and in my opinion, a bad thing.
As for this guide, I agree with Adrius but also with Ohforfsake: It's a good initiative, but lecturing others on how to behave is really, REALLY condescending. People don't like to be told what to do. All you can do is make suggestions and they will either follow them or don't follow them. Such is the way the world works.
finally:
Quote:
And sorry to smash the young heart's dreams here, but actually women prefer jerks. No matter how loud they deny it, this is part of the incomprehensible feminine logic fred joked about.
Not only is this largely false (I know MANY women who hate "jerks" - somebody define the word "jerk" please, because there are so many different flavours of douchebag out there), but this appears to imply that acting like a "jerk" towards women is perfectly acceptable. Women tend to like men who are confident and can fit a providing role, not self-important douchebags who misstreat them.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted July 26, 2015 06:45 PM |
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oh and this is SUCH an OSM topic if ever there was. move it plz.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2015 06:46 PM |
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I bet women who are born with a few millions don't have much trouble pursuing their dreams.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 26, 2015 07:05 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
@Zenofex
Would you rather live in a world where some people have a distinct advantage while others have a distinct disadvantage and can't even pursue their dreams simply due to being born with certain bodyparts? That's all i care about. I don't care one bit about my own so-called "internet fame". I just want everyone to feel welcome and accepted.
What matters the most? Your minor inconvenience or harassment, assault, unequal pay, objectification and so on. If what it takes to make half the population being able to feel secure and accepted is well worth having to think for 2 seconds before saying something.
You still don't get it, it's not about the world but about you playing a preacher for something you don't seem to understand very well yet. Assuming you're not just attention-****ing, who do you think you'll help with mentoring posts in a game forum?
Also, women in general are far less helpless and incapable or defending themselves and their interests than you might think, stop treating them as mindless amoebae who need Captain Justice to save them from the filth of the world - that is an insult to them.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted July 26, 2015 08:27 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Salamandre said:
And sorry to smash the young heart's dreams here, but actually women prefer jerks. No matter how loud they deny it, this is part of the incomprehensible feminine logic fred joked about.
If that even was true (which it's not) it's a result of the sexism I've brought up. But this isn't the place for that discussion. This is about how to find and avoid it here.
That's more about biology. The "alpha male" is always being a kind of d1ck to the lower ranking, he beats them, don't let them eat until he finishes, he always takes the juicier parts of the prey and won't let others mate with his females. Of course, in some species, like hyenas and meerkats, where the female is dominant, it's the same, except the females switch roles with males, the alpha female is the boss and will often kill the offspring of other females and "order" the other females to feed her young. Who's the alpha is determined by the sexual dimorphism, the stronger you are, the higher is your ranking in the group. Maybe as humans' sexual dimorphism isn't favoring the females, it may be hard-wired in the brain to associate the "jerk" with alpha because he acts as he pleases.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted July 26, 2015 09:10 PM |
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I very much despise sexism, but Zenofex is right this is absolutely unnecessary we do not need you to preach to us.
Also this really is OSM material.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 26, 2015 09:12 PM |
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Women aren't attracted to jerks. Jerk women are attracted to jerk men.
Generally speaking, you end up with the partner that you deserve. The purely aggressive alpha male personalities are often more successful in wooing lower class women, who have been taught to admire those exclusive qualities. It is true that women are biologically strongly inclined to be attracted to men that display leadership, but when this is tempered with levity & kindness, it is more successful in attracting better educated women, who tend to appreciate these qualities in addition to the conventional "leadership" quality.
If you're a fun & nice & educated guy, fun & nice & educated women will be attracted to you. You will lose the interest of other types of women, but that is to your benefit.
It isn't logically possible to be attractable to every kind of person. One person's perfume is another person's stench. So no matter how you present yourself, you're going to be gaining the interest of some types of women at the expense of losing the interest of others. You have to decide what you value and adjust yourself accordingly towards that end.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted July 26, 2015 09:16 PM |
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Yeah, it's more about preferences, that was just a theory.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 26, 2015 09:37 PM |
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The game of love is not something which works like in the perfect gentleman manual (ok, how many of people commenting here were married or lived for more than 10 years with a partner? Because this is what we talk about, first hand experience, not what my mum says)). The pheromones and chemicals processes involved are complex, and saying that "nice" attracts "nice" and "jerk" attracts "jerk" is naive and simplistic. You will find many people affirming the opposite as well, that contrasts generate magnetism.
All in all, women logic is not something someone can easily claim to understand. Therefore is source of jokes and sexism -more or less disturbing- but in both forms it always bows down to same nominator: our insecurity before one of the greatest dilemmas, mystery, call it how you want.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 26, 2015 09:40 PM |
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Speaking of sexism.
"Woman logic" is "logic". If you find women hard to understand, then it is because you're not giving their wants & desires much consideration.
Women are not illogical people. They are generally attracted to men that are decisive about themselves and are respectful towards them. It is perfectly logical for them to feel this way. Women that have these types of men end up in successful, highly rewarding relationships. They are treated well and treat their partner well in turn.
I'm sorry that you suck at dating. It has been my experience that being kind & fun towards women is highly effective at gaining their interest.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 26, 2015 09:47 PM |
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I don't suck at dating, don't worry, I know my text by hearth. Is just that your discourse is sounding unreal. But ok, if you believe it firmly, be it.
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Era II mods and utilities
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2015 11:30 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
1/ Don't defend yourself
usually if someone tells you you or something you said is sexist they most likely don't mean it in a "beats women" kind of way. Sexism is more than that and it's likely you don't necessarily is aware of how deep it can go. Trying to defend yourself against accusations only makes you seem unable to take criticism well. Don't do that. Don't explain why you said it or anything like that.
That's horrible. People can be wrong about whether you're sexist. Coming down on people who defend themselves gives great social power to those who can make accusations of sexism. We shouldn't just lie down and accept other people's accusations - of course, it's good to be inquisitive-minded and open to being persuaded that you're wrong, but not defending yourself isn't that, it's just surrender to others. "The sanction of the victim", and all that.Quote:
If you're a fun & nice & educated guy, fun & nice & educated women will be attracted to you. You will lose the interest of other types of women, but that is to your benefit.
Also, this. There are plenty of women who like jerks, but they don't matter, in the sense that they're not the kinds of people you should be considering anyway. The fact that they like jerks isn't an arbitrary feature, but is caused by what they're like, which also makes them undesirable to date.
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Eccentric Opinion
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