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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes IV: Basic Methodology
Thread: Heroes IV: Basic Methodology This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
arachnid
arachnid


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 08, 2002 02:13 PM

Hydra you have wrote 3,529 words covering 6 pages (in microsoft word i copied and pasted it for dramatic effect) on a game you dont even have, i hope you stop posting pointless crap when you get the game.

By the way pointless crap is exactly what you have written based on sheets of information, heroes 3, other peoples words and not the game its self (im not saying its your fault that you cant get the game for living in the artic or somewhere like it as everyone knows polar bear transport system is unreliable).


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Batvanio
Batvanio


Adventuring Hero
Archimage
posted April 08, 2002 05:10 PM

Played all the castles so far.
The only thing is that you all are underesteemating Necros.
The game with the Nekro is very different.
You can buy all the creatures and turn them to skeletons.
But the real power of the necro is a creature called - vampire.
When you are a grand necromancer you just get 3 or 4 of those with every battle. And in a fight with living creatures a stack of vampires just refuse to die. It is easy to keep their numbers grow and grow. and the death magic has a good suppport magic for them - sacrifice, raise vampire, etc. With a grand necromancer the game is piece of a cake on the highest difficulty.
also I already wrote about that but for the protocol - when you are expert in both death and nature you get new unique summoning spells - the best in the game.

____________
...and give my best regards to your family

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 08, 2002 06:55 PM

Arachnid, you're entitled to your opinion but in cases like these it would be advisable to keep it to yourself. If you don't like to read what he says then simply DON'T.

There's no need to post replies like the one you did above. All you stand to 'gain' is hurting ThE_HyDrA's feelings. How about a little more respect for one another on this forum?

There are people who post to this topic who have the game and can correct ThE_HyDrA where needed. There's no need to rack down on a good discussion topic.

---

I can't really comment on the relative town strengths since Preserve is the only town I've played extensively. I can tell you, however, that Preserve's line-up likely is not the best one and comment on a few things.

---

Map Movement & Exploration:
Preserve has excellent Map Movement. Sprites, Griffins, Air Elementals, and all the level 4 creatures have a movement of 13 or better. (The fastest creatures in some towns don't even reach this movement.) Pathfinding is a level 1 Preserve spell, and the Thief is accessible through the Tavern. This is certainly one of the Preserve's stronger points.

Elves, Wolves, Water Elemental and Waspwort are all slow, so if fast movement is required the player may be forced to leave these units behind or simply accept shorter movement to transport them.

Creature levels:
Level 1.
Nothing special to say about the level 1s. As for most other towns they're cannon-fooder primarily used to protect the hero in the beginning.

Level 2.
The game doesn't really favour tank units like the Tiger due to spells. Usually, it's better to go for Elves but the Wood requirement for the Elf building and the Ranger's guild is high. The level 2 Preserve units are decent.

Level 3.
The griffin is overall the better unit because it can fly and is faster. Unfortunately, for the Preserve it's also difficult to get this dwelling because it requires the Citadel which is quite expensive. The Unicorn Dwelling requires the cheap Rainbow structure, and is the best choice if you really need level 3 units early. Both of these units falls behind when compared to many of the other towns which sports more powerful creatures as level 3.

Level 4.
Overall, the best would nearly always be the Phoenix as the level 4. You get a really fast creature which hits hard and is durable. The Faerie Dragon is severly handicapped in combat so if the creature runs out of spellpoints or can't get a direct line of sight to desired target, or if the target has magic resistance then Faerie Dragons have major problems. In a siege they work admirable taking out creature shooters in the Towers and enemy heroes had better have Resistance to magic or the Faerie Dragon will kill them with spells. For a Hero with access to 100% Magic Resistance or the Anti-magic spell, Faerie Dragons are overall very easily defeated. Faerie Dragons offers two main options: damage spells and having the dangerous opponents missing turns with Confusion.

Creature Portal:
The creature portal offers two good options IMO. These two are the Mantis and the Water Elemental. The Mantis is good level 4 creature, although the Portal will not give you 2 per week, so you're behind in developement for it.

The Water Elemental is the Preserve's most versatile spellcaster, and by far the Preserve creature which I believe is most useful in many set-ups. Among the spells the creature has are Quicksand and Icebolt. Both of which are very useful. Being an Elemental is also a distinct advantage against many other creatures. The drawback with the Water Elemental is mainly its slow speed.

Waspwort, Leprechauns and Satyrs you would usually summon if you need their specials. Both Waspworts and Leprechauns are painfully slow, so don't carry them around the map.

Spells:
The Preserve has mainly Summon spells, plus some spells to enchance abilities of your own creatures. There are barely any spell which gives penalties to the enemy. The exception would be Wasp Swarm, which takes away the enemy's next turn. Otherwise for negative spell effects the Preserve has to rely on creatures, and then mainly the Waspwort, Water Elemental or the Faerie Dragon.

The Waspwort shots give the enemy Weakness. I've a hunch that this spell prevents some creatures from firing at you from long range. The summon spell gives you a high number of Waspworts, when compared to other units so once you get this spell and need more fire-power it's one of your main choices. The two other main options being the Faerie Dragon and the Water Elemental for magical damage. The Fire Elemental also have the ranged ability and can be used as a back-up if you don't have the others. (For brute strength the Phoenix and the Mantis are both good, depending on what you want to accomplish.)

Preserve also has weak spells for protecting/boosting their own creatures when compared to other towns. Or rather, the Preserve can only protect/boost one creature perc asting. This will probably lead to the spell being cast on the Hero instead of a creature. Mass Snake Strike has limited usefulness for the preserve troops, but Mass Fortune is a  decent spell. Unfortunately, Antimagic doesn't remove hostile spells already affecting a creature, and it blocks also friendly spells once it has been cast. The Preserve has the Quicksand spell as delaying tactics, although this spell is usually cast your the Water Elementals and not the Hero.

The Preserve has difficulty handling powerful enemies once army sizes become reasonably big. At level 30 with GM in all the Nature Magic skills, you can summon 4 level 4 creatures, or 12 (Griffins)-20 (Waspworts) per turn. This increase will be insignificant in late game, and you would much rather cast a mass protection spell or a mass attacking spell. Summoning works well against wandering armies, but I've feeling it won't work well when the enemy has powerful heroes.

Grand Master Summoning gives you 1 Elemental every day or every two days. I'd really like an option here to control what type of creature is summoned. (You can control this artificaially but doing so is tedious.)

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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arachnid
arachnid


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 08, 2002 07:55 PM

ok good post
The thing i want to meantion is that i too have played quite a lot of preserve. In the campaign ive basically went round with my main hero and no army at all, just using him to summon creatures which easily beat the computer ai since they seem to just keep going for them and not your hero.

During the campaign i never even upgraded my castles since there was no need as he can kill everything on his own. Maybe there are a bit to good at clearing the map as the only thing he could not beat was a large group of black dragons. Even when vastly outnumbered you can hit and run taking big chunks out of the enemy generals main army.

I agree that the water elementals are superb even though i have not really had an army of them ive fought them and for what they are they do alot of damage.

I really hate the skill that makes you raise 1-2 elementals each day as they basically useless other than really bad cannonfodder, they also slow you down far to much (so i just delete them) this has to be a up for worst skill award.

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted April 08, 2002 10:03 PM

Waspworts haven't caused weakness to any creatures with their shots, at least for me, but in melee they have done it. Weakness causes creatures to do less damage.

If you have your army slots full, Summoning skill can be useful, so long as you have one slot of Water Elementals. Water Elementals worth 100 experience points (and more) per day isn't bad at all. Master and Expert proficiences are also useful to boost your Elves.

Phoenixes are hardly superior to Faerie Dragons. Battles are seldom so long that Faerie Dragons would ran out of spell points. And they indeed do damage with those spells. 23 Faerie Dragons are able to do more than 800 damage with Fireball and more than 1500 damage with Lightning, and that's lot. They also have confusion. And with Faerie Dragons you have much less losses against neutrals than with Phoenixes.

Most useful creatures from Portal are Water Elementals. I rather recruit them than anything else from there.

Talking of whether to use Faerie Dragons or Phoenixes against Chaos, is a bit worthless as there is hardly no way of knowing what creatures opponent will use. Thieves Guild won't show best creatures anymore. And it's make no sense to wait to be certain what 4th level creatures opponent uses. You will buy your 4th level creatures when you are able to do so. And with random towns there is no way of knowing what alignment opponent has, as Scenario Information shows no longer the starting towns. Which is good.

Mass Snakestrike and Mass Haste are also useful spells. And so is Pathfinding.

Thieves are available to Preserve (and to any town except Haven and Academy), so you should recruit one and especially on larger maps. Scouting primary skill's (contains Stealth) efficiency drops dramatically on smaller maps, as there is less experience to be gain and thus (GM)Stealth is hard to achieve. Scouting is without a doubt most useful skill class in larger maps. One or two heroes with scouting skill class is propably enough for most players. Stealth also makes scouting itself good to be had.

Using Stealth hero to transport your armies don't make much sense until much later in game, when most of the map is explored, as having army with Stealth hero makes Stealth itself useless.

Creatures most hard to keep alive are without a question the Berserkers. This frenzies just run to their death.
____________

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Abazagaroth
Abazagaroth


Hired Hero
Paladin of Knowledge
posted April 08, 2002 11:57 PM

my take on it

Well, its kind of hard for me to say what is the "best" in terms of multiplayer as of yet, but in terms of isolated strengths and weaknesses (meaning against the computer, using only that alingment troops/spells/heroes), I am seeing very little real difference in absolute strength except that Might a lot weaker, and Preserve are a bit weaker than the other 4. The other 4 seem very balanced in terms of absolute power, just requiring different strategies. It will be interesting to see how they stack up against each other though in multiplayer, which is a whole different game.

Its also important to keep in mind that spell alignment does make quite a difference, as in many maps you won't ever get the chance to learn the skills of other alignments, much less find a castle with the spells. Some of the artifacts can really make a difference too, particularly the range ones. Having range heroes with a stun and slow effects on their range attack can be really powerful.

____________
C. David Kreger
dkreger@yahoo.com
[url]http://www.modernhumanorigins.com[/url]

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 09, 2002 12:36 AM

Quote:
The thing i want to meantion is that i too have played quite a lot of preserve. In the campaign ive basically went round with my main hero and no army at all, just using him to summon creatures which easily beat the computer ai since they seem to just keep going for them and not your hero.


I've had similar experiences. However, sometimes the creatures do go for the hero and then you have to be careful. I only developed combat skill partially for "Elwyn" instead putting main increases in Scouting, Pathfinding and Stealth. Even so, unless you had a dozen of level 4 creatures ranged at him Elvin was able to deal with it himself.

The only thing Elwyn had problems with was taking oot opponent castles with opposing powerful heroes and sizeable armies. For those combat you needed to develope your towns. However, exactly what you built didn't matter too much.

I actually never used Hit and run for Elwyn. Wasn't really aware that you were allowed to do so with Elwyn. At the latest map I used Stealth to get around the level 4s, and then if the hero had a chance to beat them I'd just take them on single-handedly. Most effective spell against ater Elmentals is Antimagic. They're much worse in melee without that Icebolt.

I forgot to mention Summoning. It probably give you less benefit than the other skills. Necromancy and Resurrection are more powerful. Charm is probably about as powerful, as you have to encounter aligned creatures for the skill to be really useful.

I don't know about the Waspworts. I do know that when they hit the elves at long range, the elves stop shooting and next thing the elves do is advance towards my troops.

The problem with leaving one slot for Water Elementals (Summoning) is that Water Elementals ruin your mobility. A working trick is however to keep all 7 army slots occupied at end of turn, and doing so turn after turn (with no Elementals). Then when you want to get some Elementals for next turn you allow for on stack of Water Elementals. You'll then get several at one go. Elves are also slow. If hero can take the opposition by itself then you do not want them in your main army.

Actually, during the full Elwyn campaing I believe I never cast mass haste at any time, and mass snake strike something like once or twice. There was always IMO something more useful to cast.

A Thief doesn't have to develope Stealh first. You can just as easily take Pathfinding for the Speed boost. The bonuses you get for not fighting monsters are nice though. Usually, you split out the rest of the army just outside the yellow area for the enemy and then use the Stealth hero the last few tiles. Then if you need help from your army, just return and finish the creatures off. Otherwise, just take them out alone.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 09, 2002 01:40 AM

Quote:
Arachnid, you're entitled to your opinion but in cases like these it would be advisable to keep it to yourself. If you don't like to read what he says then simply DON'T.

There's no need to post replies like the one you did above. All you stand to 'gain' is hurting ThE_HyDrA's feelings. How about a little more respect for one another on this forum?



Using the same logic, you donīt have to read arachnids posts, and theres no need to post replies like the one above.. =P

Itīs hard to do what you tell others to do, and it takes strength and will. Sometimes this is lacking.

Anyway, enough about that. I just realized that chaos is a very powerful town. I think it might even be my new favourite.. but I will sure miss the genies (((

Black dragons kick serious monster booty! sure their hitpoints and damage is roughly 2x the regular level 4s, but the real strength is in the att/def. its 40.. that means you take about 25% less damage and do 25% more, and with the magic immunity thats really good.


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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted April 09, 2002 06:33 AM

Well, I finally had the chance to pick up my copy, but not much to play with it yet.  So far it seems rather as I expected in many ways, but I will have to spend some more time before I have any real feel for it.  Well, off to try that "random" town and see what I get tonight!

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 09, 2002 10:48 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 9 Apr 2002

Town Analysis

Thanks to Djive backing me up there, and to others, using the same logic again, don't read the posts if you are not content on reading it!
Must I explain it again?
Arachnid, I really don't see you coming up with anything regarding much heroes in this thread. So, before criticising, do something constructive yourself, and think about what you are saying.
An example:
"living in the artic"
If you had taken the time to think about what you were posting, you could clearly see that I reside in Australia, not the arctic.
Now, shall we get onto more intersting matters?

"The only thing is that you all are underesteemating Necros."

Underestimated the Necropolis? Oldtimer and myself have regarded the Necropolis as a very good town in Heroes IV. As you say, the vampires are one of the best and most economical creatures in Heroes IV. They have the uncanny ability to heal their HP, by redirecting life from the creatures they attack.
The Necromancer, at later stages in the game excell just about more than any other castle in the game. Their level 4 creatures arent bad, and their basic skills at GrandMaster levels, can be very damaging.
So certainly I can conclude that the Nercopolis will emerge as a very strong town.

"The Preserve has mainly Summon spells, plus some spells to enchance abilities of your own creatures."

Yes, here, Is where I would question their diversity in the spellcasting abilities. Although it si a handy bonus having creatures enhanced in many aspects of their statistics, more is needed from the Preserve magic alone to have great effect as a powerful spellcaster.

"Phoenixes are hardly superior to Faerie Dragons."

I am really not sure about this comment. Yes, even the Fairy Dragon is a spellcaster, the phoenix, has other great abilities to compensate for the unavailability of spellcasting. Phoenixes have more HP, and have greater abilities, as far as I amconcerned. Rebirth, as always is a useful ability, but other specialties such as the breath attack can also be useful for attacking multitudes of creatures. The phoenix is also much quicker, and therefore being able to attack first, and cause more damage (11-15 more) sooner.

"Stealth also makes scouting itself good to be had."

Yes, I do believe that scouting is quite a commendable skill on its own, but with the aid of such other skills, scouting becomes more of a bonus than when used by itself. Other similar abilities, like logistics also have effects that can be likened to this.

"Creatures most hard to keep alive are without a question the Berserkers. This frenzies just run to their death."

I agree with this comment. While berserkers have a high amount of HP, their frenzies are more than berserker could handle. The centaur, I believe would be the best level 1 creature around.

"Well, its kind of hard for me to say what is the "best" in terms of multiplayer as of yet,"

I think that is probably the overall generalisation of town rankings so far. This will most likely change when the experience with the game progresses, and we are able to deveop more concise evaluations of towns.

"Necromancy and Resurrection are more powerful."

I had expected as much, to be honest. Yes, summoning is a good skill to have, and much of the Preserve town is based upon utilising this skill wisely, but the Necropolis definitely trumps the Preserve with its skills. The Preserve, I believe just doesn't have the room to accomodate all of the summoned creatures, and like two people have experessed, most creatures are only needed for their certain specialties. Otherwise, only the Water Elemental and Mantis have a skill which is needed in great amounts: diversity.

"You can just as easily take Pathfinding for the Speed boost."

Yes, I would think that Thiefs are able to move around the adventure map with considerable ease, as their predominant skills usually seem to revolve around this particular aspect of the game.

"Black dragons kick serious monster booty!"

Yes, I agree with this comment from Bjorn. Although, another creature that possesses the same ability is the Behemoth. They also have great attack and defense power, but not only that, they deal a great amount of damage, and instead of slashing 25%, they slash 80%, which can be instrumental is matches with a multitude of level 3 and 4 creatures.

Here is a small list of some Preserve spells I think can be infuential to an outcome in the game:

Preserve:
Pathfinding: Even though it is a simple spell, it is very useful, it saves attaining GM level.
Wasp Swarm: This is a good spell for immeadiately foiling a move. Unfortunately, it doesn't affect the Necropolis.
Anti-magic: This spell, as always provides that extra bit of respite. Knowning nothing can be cast. (Has lower significance against Stronghold)
Water Elemental: Noted before
Summon Griffin: This spell just makes the amount of Griffins easier to attain.
Dragon Strength: This spell, I would have thought is an excellent spell, it reverses all attack and defense differences, but makes them swing in your advantage.

"Well, off to try that "random" town and see what I get tonight!"

I look forward to seeing your opinions about the game once more, Tristan!
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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jondifool
jondifool


Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
posted April 09, 2002 12:46 PM

(warning long post ,dont read if this offend you)

Some comments on your last post Hydra:

"Yes, even the Fairy Dragon is a spellcaster, the phoenix, has other great abilities to compensate for the unavailability of spellcasting."

The fairy spells all cost 5 points and it have 40 to start with! The Fireball and FireRing area attack is more usefull than the breath attacks ability to damage more targets (both does fire damage by the way). The Lightning spell do around 66 damage (if I remember right) for each fairy making it supirior against high defense creatures , and make it a strong hero killer! Against low defense stacks phoenix does more damage!
And the confussion spells makes wonders in taking out (of action) too powerfull enemy stacks, and just as important it stops the advance against you, preferable creating a bottleneck , hording all enemies in a thight spot, being vulnerable to more fireballs!!


So who is best! The rebirth effect actual works alot like just another summoning spell for the preserve player nice to have, but how strong is it!! So The Farie is maybe supirior!!

I still mean that preserve have to fundemental lines of play for multi.

A shooting line where the setup is elfs, grifs and faries. Suplemented with wasports or shooting elementals. The griff is tank ( cast First strike on it!! and give it max luck, or dragon strenght) and let summons keep enemy out of reach of you shooting army and take retaliation shoots (if opponent has shooters too)

And the All out attack line up. With Tigers, Unicorns, Phoenixs, suplemented by Mantis. Its either The mass first strike spell,( dragon strength) and a few late summons (for there spell abilitys ! Or maybe doing a first round summon to get the stack into battle with the rest  If you attack with a lot of troops, the griffs special should not be as much worth than the unicorns blinding, but maybe the flying is!

By the way, When we discuss fairys against Phoenix I think they are going to be used in the different lineups as above!
Ofcause we can mix armys as we like, but if you want full strength off your army we don't use half to rush to the enemy and the other half to stand behind shooting at long range, through obstacles doing little impact! But because of this we have to face that some creatures is of more worth in a different combination. The 2 lineups above is just my understanding of how to get most value out off your creatures, it could be a wrong lineup! Lets discuss that also!


About presererves spells

Don't underestimate summon lephricorns and summon satyr as gamewinning spells.
You get to very nice effects, and a creature to block direct path to your hero and to walk into battle to take away enemy retalliation!!

Fortune from the lephricorns gives 1 stack max luck!!. Luck means less damage taken, as I have found out 1/3 less and this includes magical damage from spells!!

The Max moral from the satyr is very nice too as it gives you a big changes to get turn before every one else
(max moral is good for the shooters setup and max luck is good for the tank)

Also I will mention Quickssand as a gamewinning spell!
That spell alone would make any walker army loosse any battle. In the heroes spell book or from Water elementals.
(Hydras, behemoth, dragongolems all worthless against it)

Dragons strength could also be a game loosing spell!! (steal enchantments!!) By the way as I read it its an increse 100% in damage and 100 % in life!!

Anti magic suffers great from not removing curses, but offcause still rules!

I don't think summon grifs would be that strong, becuase it would be difficult to have a big enough stack from summon where the unlimeted retaliation would work wonders! The summon spell doesn't add to the exsisting paid stack, but forms a new!! And therefore stacks with effects like weakness, blinding, binding, and spells is going to be much more important to summon!


And finally to another thing:

Imps spellpoints draining effect doesn't it work on creatures to. And isn't there some creatures there realy would be weak with out there 1 time special spell. (Angels as exsample), just wondering!!

with regards
Jondifool

____________
The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 09, 2002 06:04 PM

The Fairy Dragon is better in sieges, as the Preserve needs to take out the shooters in the towers by spells. If any other method is desired then Preserve shooters must seriously outgun the defending shooters.

(Once the opponent has Castle and is set on defending it with a sizeable force of shooters, every town must have a strategy on how to handle it. Your own shooters do very little damage to creatures in the towers, so spells or other disruption is necessary.)

In an open battle Phoenixes tend to be more useful than Faeries.

Preserve will have to consider movement when facing most stacks. Often you'll just have the 13+ movement troops and attack with them. Of the "ranged" units only the Fairy Dragon has a speed of 13, so when you face an army it all depends on how powerful your hero is with spells and ranged attacks. A very common scenario is to Summon some Phoenxies/Mantis/Griffins and let them make a kamikaze attack. Unless the ranged power of your hero + feaeries outgun the opponent you'll want to go on the attack with the rest of your creatures.

Naturally, the fast troops will not face every enemy they meet. If ranged support (elves  or elementals) are required then the army will just have to await shooter reinforcements and try to do something else constructive.

Usually it pays of to explore in more than one direction. Stapling everything onto one hero and one army just gives the enemy twice the time to build up and it takes you twice the time to flag the same dwellings. The slower army could consist of elves/tigers, unicorns and elementals.

If you face mainly shooters then you want to finish them in as few rounds as possible. Even if this means firing with your shooters with range penalty. Remember that once you engage the enemy shooters in close combat they'll no longer return fire when your shooters aim at them.

One of the worst units to meet (and probably for many towns) are medusas. Their stone can accelerate your losses a lot, so players must be careful when facing them.

Summon Leprechaun is a good spell in the first weeks, but then its use dimishes.

Not sure if Luck works against spells. Are you sure you didn't have Resistance of 30% insteaad?

If you get Good Morale in a turn the damage your creature will inflict increases by something around 25% or so. This is in addition to acting sooner.

Preserve will probably use summon spells to a very big extent. They see a variety of uses. At level 30 with GM in Nature skills, you can summon 12 Griffins per turn. The new stack accumulates (that is you don't get 3 stacks with 12 griffins you get 1 with 36), so if you summon 3 turns in a row you'll have 36 griffins. If you manage to defeat the shooters in a castle siege, then preserve can usually put summoning to very good effect. Just defend with your creatures and start summoning. For each turn your army grows. So either the defenders abandon their walls and fight on equal turns or wait until your army overwhelms them. Griffins are particularly useful in this case.

Imps spell draining works on creatures too. If you have several stacks of them each will take 2 spellpoints from the caster to add to one of your own spellcasters. Imps are actually quite useful in that way.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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jondifool
jondifool


Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
posted April 09, 2002 09:19 PM

greatings Djive!

Well I am pretty sure that I in a hotseat saw my phonix take 266 damage from a 400 points lightning spell and that the 4 leaf clower showed up! offcause it went fast, but I made the conclussion that my fortunespell just worked!!
(didn't have any reason to expect resistance on phoenix)
But I have not made it as a Test so it could be wrong!

Nice post by the way, going to comment it later!! Your catle siege thought are interesting!!

with regards
Jondifool

____________
The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 09, 2002 09:56 PM

About what you said on Morale. The below example is genuine, showing that Morale really makes a lot of difference in H4.

Just consider this example.

I have:
11 Faerie Dragons -3/+2
10 Nagas -8
1 level 15 Seer. (Chaos Aligned) -4/+1
1 level 14 General (Nature aligned) -4/+1
1 level 6 Wizard King (Order aligned) -8
26 Unicorns -3/+2
17 White Tigers. -3/+2

I'm laying siege to a Haven with the following army:
1 level 3 Knight
16 Champions
36 Monks
96 Squires
36 Pikemen
86 Crossbowmen

The computer says. "You'll crush this army like a bug."
I lose badly. ( I get Annihilated, the enemy has almost a dozen champions left, the hero and half of the Squires.)

Then I try again and this time I split away the Order hero and the Nagas, and attack with the remainder. (This removes all my Morale penalties.)

(The numbers after the creatures is the morale they have in the first and second attempt. That's really all that changed between the two tries.)

Computer now says I have the advantage against the enemy.
I crush the enemy like a bug. (I have 1 Faerie Dragon left, 20+ Unicorns, and both my Heroes.)

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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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jondifool
jondifool


Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
posted April 09, 2002 10:03 PM

Sorry djive who said something significant about morale ?
me? I am last poster? no !!
Hydra, maybe i have looked his last post and didn't finf it , the rest is to long to reread for now. Anyway who is it adressed to,
your exsample anyway could talks for itself, impresiv exsample!

With regards
Jondifool
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The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 09, 2002 10:17 PM

Quote:
Sorry djive who said something significant about morale ?


A few posts back you advocated Satyr's because they can cast the Mirth spell. (There was not anything in the more recent post. This example tells you why Satyr's may be a good idea.)

Anyway, the example tells you not to mix opposing alignments. And this is purely of morale reasons.
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FuriousGeorge
FuriousGeorge


Hired Hero
posted April 10, 2002 05:43 AM

So far i find Nature a little subpar, but i'd like to play with some more possible tactics (the nature campaign is very limiting in terms of what they allow you to do).

Nature has high offense/high movement units that can reach an enemy in 1 turn and inflict some serious harm. Their spells are mostly about just creating more of those units. They play fairly straightforward, and there's not much to do than just overpower your opponent.

I do see the powerful Nature creatures working exceptionally well with some of the powerful magic available to Life/Chaos, the allied factions.

- Town Options
No university means advanced classes will be hard to create (other than combat hybrids).
I find the Luck bonus a bit weak compard to the other towns' bonus buildings.
The portal is just more creatures, the theme of Nature.

- Heroes
Archers are some of the nastiest heroes you'll find. Getting 2 attacks at GM Archery is absolutely deadly.
Druids = more creatures (suprise).

- Spells
The only advantage summonings have vs. illusions is they can't be dispelled, which is only a problem vs. enemy Order mages, a rather specific enemy. It would make sense that Summonings create more monsters than the equivalent level Illusion, but i haven't been able to compare this concretely.

First Strike & Mass First Strike are some poor choices for one of Nature's few combat spells.
Sprites: no retaliation, better than 1st strike
Wolves: attacks twice, meaning 1st strike is half as effective
Tigers: have it
Elves: have it
Mantis: have it
Faerie Dragon: caster

To be fair, Griffin/Unicorn work exceptionally well with 1st Strike.


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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted April 10, 2002 06:35 AM

Well, after a bit of time to play, I must say I am impressed!  Played the tutorial with Academy, and while it seemed pretty fun, it was not my favorite.  Then played with Asylum and Haven some.  I like Chaos, but make sure you get your heroes a Crossbow!  It can make a HUGE difference.  Crossbowmen rock early on.  I split them up early to engage more targets per turn, and with some squires to protect them they do some nasty damage to your enemies before they can get close.  Since I got lucky enough to get my priest the ressurection skill, I went with pikemen for 2nd level and they aren't that bad either.

I still think it takes longer to get started in some ways, but daily availibility of troops is usefull in the beginning.  Oh, and Black dragons are nasty!

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 11, 2002 10:31 AM

Analysing Castles

Interesting disicussion, sorry I haven't been able to reply, schoolwork and other commitments have stopped me from doing such. But, with all that behind me, I'll just state my opinions on the matters at hand.

"The Fireball and FireRing area attack is more usefull than the breath attacks ability to damage more targets"

Yes, and this is a sub-special ability, and therefore not the Faerie Dragon's customary attack. Although that sentence did not mean anything specific, the point I am trying to relay here is that the Phoenix's breath attack comes as a standard feature. While the Faerie Dragons spells don't always eventuate in that manner. So, while the Faerie Dragon has a more diverse list of skills, the ones we are talking about are not standard, and cost spell points.

"So The Farie is maybe supirior!!"

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion too soon. Even though you said maybe, your mannerism suggests otherwise. (!!)
I still believe that the Phoenix has the wood on the Faerie Dragon. It is more practical, it is quicker, and generally deals more damage. The phoenix is quite useful in sieges and open battles. But I believe more so in open battles, because of the range it is able to reach. Although, if attacking in a siege situation, both level 4 creatures are useful, as they both have the ability to fly.

"The griff is tank"

That point is for sure. The griffins are tanks, they have 95 HP, fly, and deal up to 22 damage. The Unicorns and Griffins are quite similar if you look at their statistics. The main differences are the cost, abilities, and capability to fly. This is what makes the two units different, and consequently, swinging the pendulum in favour of the Griffin.

"Also I will mention Quickssand as a gamewinning spell!"

That may be so in some cases, but I believe it is too unreliable to use in most cases for me. Spells such as quicksand and firewall aren't to my liking, as I utilise defensive spells, as that is the way I play.

"Their stone can accelerate your losses a lot, so players must be careful when facing them."

Not only this aspect of the medusas, but their unlimited shots can also have quite a significant event in long battles, were stamina is needed in terms of ranged attackers.

"Summon Leprechaun is a good spell in the first weeks, but then its use dimishes."

The most probable reason for this is that the Leprechauns lose importance in the latter stages of the game as their abilities Luck) and reliability are no match for other armies of this time frame.

"I still think it takes longer to get started in some ways, but daily availibility of troops is usefull in the beginning."

Yes, this for me, brings up a good point about creature growth. In all the previous series of Heroes, creatures were only available once per week. A feature to uphold this system was the 'Week'. Now that we have different creature growth rates, it makes creatures more available. Therefore, able to build up a larger army in less time. Of course, this also means others will have the same amount and once can lose it as quickly has he attained it.

Just a question about the new creature growth change. As I mentioned before, when creatures were inhabited by the week, there was a 'Week of the Red Dragon'. I am wondering now if there is the 'Day of the Orc' or something that fits in with the new system.

Now, it seems that this thread has been based on the discussions of the Preserve town. Now it is obvious that there is a specialed thread for the Preserve town that Jondifool had created before this one I believe. So can I ask a favour of you to refrain from posting about the Preserve as the predominant section of your post. Thanks.

OK. To start on a new topic, but still incorporating Towns and their Heroes, Spells, Creatures; the new battle techniques in Heroes IV.

The priority of movement is determined by the parameter of speed. The distance of movement, by the movement gauge. Parameters traditionally influenced the locality/terrain (related or not), magic and artifacts. Furthermore, heroes with the skill Of tactics increase both parameters.

So this is also likely to have an influence on what creatures are chosen throughout separate towns. Also, the usage of different skills and artifacts, and of course, the myriad of new spells available to counteract the opposition.

With this in mind, I would like to share with you my thoughts on battle.

Well, it is obvious that there are going to be new tactics in play, Defensive, such as myself, or offensive, the strategy most used by towns that have the attainment of high speed and movement creatures.
To me, it appears that one has to use the correct combination of spells, heroes and creatures to have much success. So, the great proficiency of chaos spells are always reliable, but maybe not the best way to tackle a Necropolis Castle's army.
Creatures using their special abilities well is an important factor in tricky battles, as the pirate's specialty, when on sea could win a match for their team. While its earth-dwelling equivalent, the leprechaun, enduces luck for its team.

So, there was my very brief account on battle tactics in Heroes IV, but I would like to hear your take on battle tactics that you would use. (Djive has touched on that with the post about the luck of her team against the Haven)
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 11, 2002 01:30 PM

"That point is for sure. The griffins are tanks, they have 95 HP, fly, and deal up to 22 damage. The Unicorns and Griffins are quite similar if you look at their statistics. The main differences are the cost, abilities, and capability to fly. This is what makes the two units different, and consequently, swinging the pendulum in favour of the Griffin."

Don't forget that you get one more Unicorn per week, and also that you can often build it a lot sooner since the Griffin dwelling requires the very expensive Citadel.

(The town which has been truly shafted in the form of required builings for dwellings is the Stronghold. And hmm.. perhaps also the Academy, but I belive that at least the level 2 doesn't have too expensive pre-requisites. Necropolis is the easiest town to start with. If you build Cerberi day 1 (requires nothing prebuilt), you can build either Vampires (requires Tavern: often pre-built), or Venom Spawn (requires MG level 1: often prebuilt) on day 2.

"That may be so in some cases, but I believe it is too unreliable to use in most cases for me. Spells such as quicksand and firewall aren't to my liking, as I utilise defensive spells, as that is the way I play."

Quicksand is a purely defensive spell. It's simple the enemy walkers don't get to attack and thus do no damage.

"The most probable reason for this is that the Leprechauns lose importance in the latter stages of the game as their abilities Luck) and reliability are no match for other armies of this time frame."

The problem with all low level Summon spells is that you don't get all that many monsters. I don't have the exact numbers in my head, but would you pick 30 Leprechauns for 2 Mana over 12 Griffins for 5 mana? I'd considered it if I got 130 Leprechauns.

"I still think it takes longer to get started in some ways, but daily availibility of troops is usefull in the beginning."

Actually, the best thing is not to buy the level 1 and level 2 and instead try to build the level 3 some days earlier. Most level 1 and level 2 are simply not durable enough.

"I am wondering now if there is the 'Day of the Orc' or something that fits in with the new system."

There is Month of "XXXXX". Where XXXXX is a creature in the game. It replenishes creatures on the world map, and usually the new creatures are placed so they guard mines and other important locations. All stacks that are placed are not of a single monster. I've noticed it to be common that the monster mix with another type of the same level from the same town, so in fact the placed stacks are mixed.

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