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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Homm Visual Aspects
Thread: Homm Visual Aspects This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 09, 2015 08:02 PM bonus applied by Maurice on 21 Mar 2016.
Edited by Elvin at 10:41, 10 Aug 2015.

Homm Visual Aspects

As visuals are a multi-faceted aspect of the game that means a lot to me, I would like to ask of each and every one of you for some feedback. By visuals I do not simply mean graphics but rather the way the game is represented whether in art, interface, the looks of the adventure map as well as the battlefield.
I will cover one at a time and I would like you to tell me how much you agree. Please use the following replies:

-Highly agree
-Agree
-Don't mind
-Disagree
-Highly disagree

Onwards then!





ART

Much as I agree that Ashan should seek and maintain its own visual style, I find some problems with its current implementations. Much of its art is stunning except..

1) It is not dynamic, the creative control will not allow units to look much different between games. In H6, duel of champions and might & Magic X units look pretty much the same. Even H7 seems unwilling to break from the mold unless the community enters a state of fanrage. Why? Much as there should be some standards, who the hell asked for such stagnation? The old games were not afraid to reinvent units, there was no fear we'd get a new heroes game where the units would be slight edits of the previous one. And this is not a matter of budget, even by reusing a model you can rework a unit's aesthetics to make it look vastly different. Hair, armour, weapon, colours, stance.. A fan modder could do it. Sure there are subfactions like jungle, steppe or desert orcs but should we move on to another archetype to see some change? And what about factions like necro that do not have clear subfactions? Tough luck, here's another H6 necro? No thanks.

2) It is so painfully overdone. So many symbols, decorations, chains, spikes, shiny effects.. How many actually like that? There should be a point where we draw the line for crying out loud. I am not asking to return to an H3 visual style (though I'd prefer the classic style to be honest) but would it be too much if they toned down all that invasive decoration? Even core units look dressed like popes.





INTERFACE

I find it hard to believe that every homm game since ubi took over has a worse UI than H3. Every. Single. One.

1) Take the hero screen, H3 required only one screen to show everything.



Skills, stats, specialization, army, warmachines, paperdoll. It doesn't even waste room with backpack artifacts!
Add a button to show/hide the full skillwheel and you have everything you need.

Speaking of paperdolls, do we need the hero model in there? Doesn't the classic paper doll look so much better?



2) Take hiring screen. H3 shows all units - animations included - with stats, specials and availability. Even their dwellings.



All the information you could ever want from the units is there in one screen. H5 was a little bit worse. H6 devolved further. No overview for all units and I don't really care for the artwork. In H6 it wasn't even a separate, full screen..

3) Adventure map UI. Look at this beauty:



The interface is beautifully intergrated in the screen. Minimap, towns, heroes and other functions all grouped together on the right. There is a structured approach, not hero portraits or towns glued over the edge of the adventure map like here. Or here. This kind if UI is invasive and shows less info! It doesn't have the aesthetics or cohesion of the old games.





ADVENTURE MAP REPRESENTATION

Back in the day, the adventure map looked like an actual map. Everything had a symbolic size, like a location marked on a map.



Everything visible. Not much room required to place all locations of importance. Allows for a good overview of what there is to visit. Recent games changed the location scale to realistic which led many people to feel that the maps were emptier. I am happy that H7 is closer in scale to the old games.





BATTLEFIELD REPRESENTATION

H3 battlefield was close to the armies, where every unit could be seen in detail. But more importantly it was practical: The whole battlefield would fit within the screen without requiring a zoom in or zoom out. Without sacrifing unit detail.



Compare it to this:



You do not feel like you are in the battlefield. The units look tiny by comparison. All that room around the battlefield is wasted on eyecandy. Which is why I recommended changing the default camera distance to this:



Another game I feel has a good combat camera is king's bounty. Here's an example. And another on a brighter battlefield.
You can zoom in or rotate the camera but the default distance is just fine. You don't need to tamper with it to appreciate the combat like with H6. I frequently zoomed in but then I could only see a part of the battlefield. And then any mouse movement could change that view which I found annoying.





TOWN SCREENS



What I liked the most about H3 town screens was that every single building was clearly visible and easily identifiable.
It was subtly animated so as to give the feeling of life.
Champion dwellings were highlighted and you could tell they were special. (Dragon cliffs anyone?)
Not all dwellings were buildings, some were part of the natural environment like caves, cliffs or forests.
They had a variety of colours, used in a way to distinguish buildings one from the other.
There were numerous non-military houses that gave the impression of an actual town.
Buildings were set up in a logical way. There were no passability problems and dwellings were where they might be expected. Rocs at high ground, behemoths isolated. Tavern and marketplace were easily accessible. Only fortifications did not feel quite right but I can forgive them for that one

Sanctuary

Stronghold.

Shades of Purple

In H6 it is not easy to distinguish buildings due to the colour palette. All dwellings look like more of the same. Champion dwellings do not stand out much. No citizen houses. No particular plan in building placement. It looks pretty but it's not very practical. Same is true for H7





That's it for now And don't forget to use the following for each category:

-Highly agree
-Agree
-Don't mind
-Disagree
-Highly disagree
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 09, 2015 08:12 PM

At one moment I felt bored and unhappy with H3 simplistic adventure map. We could have more role playing graphics in H3, but somehow avoid the chaotic feeling from H4.

H3 modded as I wanted H3, but not yet as H4:




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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted August 09, 2015 08:18 PM

Highly agree with pretty much everything. Going to work on a true reply for later (if i remember/have the inspiration) but for now i leave with "clarity and usability is queen"

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 09, 2015 09:01 PM

What is left to say, these pictures speak the truth. Absolutely agree with everything.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 09, 2015 09:03 PM

Elvin said:
ART

Agreed, with reservations. It's worth taking into account, however, that H7 is the first Heroes game where there aren't any major graphics improvement since the previous game. This does change the agenda in some ways. H1 -> H2 -> H3 -> H5 had pretty major leaps in graphics quality, H6 also I suppose. This basically meant that an overall re-design of every unit was, if not necessary, then not an extra cost, because you simply couldn't use old models. With H7, that's not really the case, and I actually support the re-use of some models, even if some chosmetic details should be done (which is also the case in most cases, I think). Redesigning every unit from scratch would simply be poor management of resources.

When that's said, I fully agree that units and hero models are way overdesigned. WAY overdesigned. Far too much eye-candy and spikes means most things end up being cluttered. Less would certainly be more in many cases. That is for me a BIG problem.

Elvin said:
INTERFACE

1) Agree. H3 Hero interface was good and easy to oversee. H5 worked well also. H6 was horrible.
2) Don't mind. Either works for me.
3) Disagree. I actually think the H5 and H6 adventure interface looks much better than H3.

Elvin said:
ADVENTURE MAP REPRESENTATION

Agreed, I think. H6 maps look awfully empty, and H7 maps look quite empty also. I didn't have that much of a problem with H5 maps, though, at least not those Fiur made.

Elvin said:
BATTLEFIELD REPRESENTATION

Highly agree. H7 battlefield is horrible, it's impossible to see what unit is what.
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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted August 09, 2015 09:04 PM
Edited by Sleeping_Sun at 21:12, 09 Aug 2015.

ART

I more or less agree, with what you said.

1) I think that that there should be at least some changes to the units from one game into the next. At least change colours enough that it feels that the unit is different. Just like what they did to Haven, for example. It shouldn't be too difficult to play with hue and saturation or to colourize a unit...

2) As for the decorations.... I  believe that deep down I do not mind them... by I want to raise an awareness that LW started some time ago and that is that number of polys impact the game performance. The lower the polys the better performance. At least this is of great concern for me, as I might not be able to play a game with high requirements...

INTERFACE

I highly agree with what you said in this section. But I have something to add. The town screen interface is bad. In H3 for example (and H1-H4) there are two clearly distinguished parts: the town itself and the unit managing part. The unit managing part is not overlapping with a part of the town. Thus everything is clearly seen.


H5 is somewhat an exception as we could rotate the 3D townscreen and see all that which was hidden behind a unit bar, map, etc.

H6 interface is bad because it is on a townscreen, thus a part of it is hidden, while it is not a catastrophe, as only the wall is hidden.


H7 has a similar thing. But what matter to me as someone who has some kind of an interest for the TS, H7 interface is bad for mod townscreens, as many buildings can get behind that UI. Even if we are to scale the image to make it fit, we are left with the gaps between three elements of UI: map, unit garrison, and the third thingy. I'll use the same Tower TS for an example. Here we can't see Tavern, part of capitol, market, etc.



TS needs some love too!
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nessich
nessich


Hired Hero
posted August 09, 2015 09:04 PM

Art

I highly agree with your points regarding the art in the newer games. The most annoying thing IMO is the reusage of models. They could have at least made them more distinguishable.

The art style is a completely different matter. Even though I respect it, I don't like it. It's not memorable, it's already seen. The overdone armor, weapons, trinkets remind me of MMORPG games like WoW. I'd like to have seen a more unique aesthetic. The art doesn't have to be realistic to be successful. For instance, Dishonored pulled off one bizarre yet distinguishable art style that works quite well and is unique. The HoMM 3 visuals are yet to be surpassed.

Interface

I actually really liked the Heroes 6 interface's design. The circles, the patterns, the colors were well chosen. However, I agree that functionality-wise it was a mess. The Heroes 7 one is worse IMO.

Adventure Map

I feel that 3D doesn't really capture the essence of the adventure map. The former games' adventure maps even though they were flatter, they felt less congested and more organic. You didn't have to rotate the camera or zoom in to pick up resources or artifacts. So, I highly agree.

Battlefield

I also agree about the battlefield. That area around it in the latter games seems like a waste of time and resources.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted August 09, 2015 09:37 PM

Elvin said:
ART


highly agree

Elvin said:
Much of [Ashan's] art is stunning


highly disagree

Elvin said:
INTERFACE


highly agree

Elvin said:
ADVENTURE MAP REPRESENTATION


highly agree

Elvin said:
BATTLEFIELD REPRESENTATION


highly agree
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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted August 09, 2015 09:46 PM
Edited by Gryphs at 10:30, 10 Aug 2015.

Elvin said:
ART
Highly agree the unit stagnation is getting old fast. Lore is primarily to be blamed for this one as they cannot edit the same nations to change their unit schemes all that much.

On unit decoration I agree completely that unit decoration is far to high. Even royal guards in the past would struggle to look as extravagant as some of the upgrades of common footmen in Ashan. It is ugly, tacky, and entirely unnecessary.

Elvin said:
INTERFACE
I agree with your first point but H5's interface was not bad. I agree with your second point to an extent but this has never been a real problem for me. I don't mind the third point it has never bothered me.

Elvin said:
ADVENTURE MAP REPRESENTATION
I don't mind this point with exception of H6 where some of the buildings were indistinct.

Elvin said:
BATTLEFIELD REPRESENTATION
I agree somewhat here but to be honest I like the new eye candy on the battlefield. I agree that the default camera distance should be close like you suggest perhaps with a zoom affect from the previous default zoom as you enter battle.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 09, 2015 09:54 PM
Edited by Elvin at 21:59, 09 Aug 2015.

Silly me, forgot the town screens [/facepalm]

There is something else I forgot to mention. Since H6 added a huge amount of artifacts, it no longer was feasible to create a unique model for each on the adventure map. Instead they created a generic model for each artifact category: Boots, gloves, cloak, amulet etc. So while you can tell what slot each adventure map artifact goes to, you cannot tell what it is. You have to mouse over and even if you do, there are no descriptions what it does. H3 did not have descriptions either but H4 did afaik.



How it used to be.



If you squint enough you might spot 5-6 artifacts.
Mainly because THEY ARE BATHED IN LIGHT.

The game can work like that but honestly, I'd rather have a clear idea what artifact I'm seeing at a glance. Not having to mouse over every single artifact to determine my interest in it.

I had an alternative idea that might or not satisfy you. Instead of a generic model, how about we use a square box with the image of the artifact on top. No 3D model required, easy to implement regardless of the amount of artifacts. I am not fully satisfied myself but I find it better than the H6 approach.
Obviously the box should be the size of the hero so as to be more noticeable.

Thoughts?
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 09, 2015 10:28 PM

Wow Elvin, that Grig guy looks freaky dangerous. He only lacks Red Orb and perhaps a huge lich army from Cloak and a different skill distribution and he'd be perfect!

In HoMM 2 or 4, I never get that feeling looking at a hero screen.

Salamandre said:




So beautiful..



Anyway that aside. HoMM 2 also had something in the visual department HoMM 3 didn't have. In my opinion both games are good in the same ways, but they do those ways different.. if HoMM 2 had been the later game (with what follows), I think it'd be just as popular as HoMM 3 is today.

HoMM 4 tried something new, and I think it worked when going from 2->3, but not from 3->4.
I'm not sure, but I've the impression all the later series tries to be HoMM 3 with better graphics.. why not just play HoMM 3 then?
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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted August 09, 2015 10:37 PM

Honestly with Artifacts they just have to lower the number. Not that hard really. Also the flavor text in H4 for picking up artifacts and doing other things on the map I greatly miss.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 09, 2015 10:40 PM
Edited by Elvin at 22:40, 09 Aug 2015.

H2 did a lot of things in a good way, sometimes better than H3. H4 had some good points of its own to make. I'm only using H3 as an example, many of the things I mentioned are present in all nwc games.

EDIT:

Added town screens in the masterpost.
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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted August 09, 2015 10:51 PM

Adventure map presentation should be designed to be perfectly visible on all levels of zoom. Zoom has sadly become a staple feature in the genre and is unavoidable but I find that the Civilization series has a nice approach that could be used here as well including a much higher adventure map camera base settings and possibly the use of labels with pictures on them. This would allow a larger scale of terrain features to be used without losing pespective of the unit models. This ofc requires non realistic unit representation on the Adv. map but imho it never should have been tried in H6 because it also contributed to the map feeling empty.

Elvin said:
I had an alternative idea that might or not satisfy you. Instead of a generic model, how about we use a square box with the image of the artifact on top. No 3D model required, easy to implement regardless of the amount of artifacts. I am not fully satisfied myself but I find it better than the H6 approach.
Obviously the box should be the size of the hero so as to be more noticeable.

Another possibility would be to do away with artifact models but have colorcoded chests according to rarity that are noticabely different to gold chests. Mouse-over descriptions with 2D pictures are a perfectly acceptabe alternative if we really want to go cheap on the graphics department.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 09, 2015 11:08 PM

Treasure chests could work just as well.. If we are going to mouse over anyway, I'd prefer artifact chests over generic models.
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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted August 09, 2015 11:16 PM

Would not generic chests be the same as generic models?
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 09, 2015 11:22 PM

fuChris said:
Mouse-over descriptions with 2D pictures are a perfectly acceptabe alternative if we really want to go cheap on the graphics department.


As player is okay to hover mouse and get infos, but now think one second: how handle that as mapmaker?

Let's say you just designed a huge map and now polishing it. You zoom out and try to find loopholes as for instance the level of artifacts  the player will get in early, medium and late stage. How you do it? Click on every generic box to find what you put inside?

This is the death of mapmaking, redundant clicks and lack of global vision.

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted August 09, 2015 11:34 PM

Salamandre said:
How you do it? Click on every generic box to find what you put inside?
Zoom out to a bigger scale view while in the editor and instantly the 3d generic chest will be represented by the 2D artifact models, similarly as world overview works in Civ4 for example. In a user friendly editing tool such a feature can reduce such conserns to literally just a scroll of the wheel.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 09, 2015 11:43 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 23:45, 09 Aug 2015.

It remains the difficulty to set it. Generic objects as events -or in this case, chest- offer a scrolling bar to get your option.

Open H3 map, place the 6 components of angelic alliance. 6 seconds.

Now place them again, but this time inside 6 events. It will take you more than one minute, using the internal scrolling bar. This is the difference between friendly and not friendly editor.
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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted August 10, 2015 12:22 AM

Not really. If you put down an artifact then you simply put it down 1-2 clicks, thats it, no events involved.
What I'm talking about is simply development resource management in the form of how it will be represented as an ingame model during gameplay. During mapmaking it can be represented as a lable either by default in a world map view or simply set it in the options menu to show them as default 2D pics no matter the zoom.

The civ4 example I mentioned:

The small arrow is not needed ofc, static pictures are fine as well.
Ofcourse in Civ multiple objects can be in the same tile which could be problematic but that doesnt often come up in heroes except when heroes wisit garrisons or mines and such.
Really it can only be screved up if the designers really wanted it to be screved up.

But enough offtopic....

One of the reasons I would like a world overview in game is that we could place ourselves exactly where we are on the global map during a campaign, which is not exactly useful per se but but could help with immersion and the ebb and flow of territorry and power would be made visible and make the setting seem more alive. Ofc custom made campaign maps(like Enroth) could also be recreated.
And to all who worry about the game needing to render too much, don't. Such a screen needs less 3D models on it that the original H6 townscreen. *zing*
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