|
| Thread: Homm Visual Aspects |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
posted August 11, 2015 08:17 PM |
|
|
Pic of the skill screen in H7.
Hero portrait below skills? Pointless, also sticking out in a bad way.
Minimap? Unnecessary.
Specialization? Containing way too much space.
Skill pizza? Icons too tiny because all the other elements are wasting space. Because of that we get a big window on the right to highlight each ability and display the description. That should not have been necessary in the first place.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 08:26 PM |
|
|
An example of H3 fan made trainer, where in same screen you have 180 creatures to scroll, 150 scrollable artefacts, 80 scrollable spells, all 27 skills, hero portrait, all his stats, his movement, his mana, his level, all resources, his army, see map button, + button opening commander screen. Tight? Yet I think is not overcrowded and pretty simple to handle, because all the features are depending on same texture boxes, only size differ.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 08:35 PM |
|
|
This is looking great though I'm fine with spells shown by clicking the spellbook and your kingdom's creatures shows through the kingdom overview. Only shows there is room to spare if you organize things properly.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 09:02 PM |
|
|
That's waaaaaaay too cluttered 
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
|
|
Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 09:20 PM |
|
|
Elvin said:
More tabs and clicks means it is less organized.
From the point of view (or preference) of having a single hero screen with all info, such as army, skills, artefacts, war machines and so forth, the idea of clicking here and there might indeed seem unorganized. It's just what one prefers and likes best. Yet looking at it from a different perspective, 'my' perspective, I think that putting information under tabs is also a way of organizing things. Have a look at H5's example:
The hero has his/her model prominently placed, a larger portrait, and several tabs to learn more about what this hero is capable of. There's a tab for Inventory, Bio, Skills etc. Do you feel the same about how this is treated, compared to the older games? Imo this approach is similar to H6, where, as you've seen, there are also different tabs for different pieces of information.
If I had to choose between the style of H3/H4 and this, I wouldn't be able to make a quick choice. Both approaches have their appeal. H3 is clear as day: it's well-organized in one screen. H5's approach offers an individual tab for things like artefacts, which imo is also a form of organizing.
Elvin said:
Minimap? Unnecessary.
Now that the skill page has become a full screen, you make a good point. It serves no purpose other than being 'there'. That makes it rather 'fortunate' that in H6 the hero screen is more of a window, and while you view that window, stuff like the Minimap actually becomes darker to put the emphasis on the Hero screen itself.
Elvin said:
I do not want one in my town screen.
If you switch from town to fort to town etc while being in-town all the time, the Minimap will highlight your current location briefly. I think that with the system of town conversion, this helps you with orientation. Just my thought on it, don't worry  . I think this will be the same case in H7. Purely a matter of orientation, I can't think of another purpose. H5 didn't have it, nor did any game before that.
Elvin said:
Icons too tiny because all the other elements are wasting space.
Yes they put time in designing them (and when presented on the SC they are considerably larger), so having them so small in the end feels like a waste of effort imo. It should show them more, but as of now there's little room. At least in previous games, 6 included, these icons were at least much better visible.
____________
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 09:56 PM |
|
|
kiryu133 said:
That's waaaaaaay too cluttered
Is a trainer, a cheat program. From one screen, access all game parameters and able to modify each of them. If you have to open a second screen to access spells, close it to get back to first and handle artefacts, then you can't setup properly global changes.
I wonder how all infos about game would fit for H5 for example, within 800x600 box size.
|
|
Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 09:58 PM |
|
|
Stevie said:
This is not a question of preference dammit! It's a question of UTILITY and USEFULNESS! You want as much relevant information as possible, fast and easily identifiable. I don't wanna click MORE to obtain LESS information in an UI that looses itself in eyecandy and unused / badly used space! These things can be determined OBJECTIVELY. No nostalgia, no preference, stop trying to mop it under the carpet of subjectivism.
Goodness sake, these Ubishan apologists.
And to me, both options are as useful as they can be in their own respective ways. But I may prefer one over the other. I can't see it any other way. One person likes A, the other B. It's not like one of them is superior, it's just what you're used to.
Exactly what you say. YOU don't want A. But I do. It is subjective imo. All the relevant info is there for me to find, and the way I have to find it is one I don't mind, no matter what the screen looks like.
HoMM is in many ways based on taste and preferences, and cleary the latest course does not meet with what most fans expect. No need to be so mean all of a sudden with your "Ubishan apologists". Am I mocking you for your preferences? (well, maybe a little in the Fan Interaction thread )
____________
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 09:59 PM |
|
|
I will not accept further Enrothian vs Ashan bashing, keep it cool.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 10:02 PM |
|
|
Elvin said:
I will not accept further Enrothian vs Ashan bashing, keep it cool.
I apologize.
|
|
PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 10:05 PM |
|
|
Elvin said:
I will not accept further Enrothian vs Ashan bashing, keep it cool.
But...but...
Anyway, they could make a customized UI interface, similar to those we have in graphic editing apps. Add this, take that off, arrange them on re-sized clusters. This way one can have a single objective screen or multi-tabbed screens, depending on personal preferences. Add hero portrait, skill icons, or just names, spells learned etc.
*reads back a single world*
"Could". I hate speaking of coulds and shoulds.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 10:20 PM |
|
|
Dies_Irae said:
Elvin said:
I do not want one in my town screen.
If you switch from town to fort to town etc while being in-town all the time, the Minimap will highlight your current location briefly. I think that with the system of town conversion, this helps you with orientation. Just my thought on it, don't worry . I think this will be the same case in H7. Purely a matter of orientation, I can't think of another purpose. H5 didn't have it, nor did any game before that.
In this case, it does serve a purpose, but the cons heavily outweigh the pros. IMO, the only way I can accept having the minimap present on the Town Screen is if it was briefly showed when you entered the town, highlighting the town's position on the map and then after 2-3 seconds it was automatically hided so it doesn't take away space from the actual TS. Or being hidden from the get-go.
But it should never ever be always present, it's simply a waste of space 
____________
|
|
Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 10:33 PM |
|
|
Storm-Giant said:
Dies_Irae said:
Elvin said:
I do not want one in my town screen.
If you switch from town to fort to town etc while being in-town all the time, the Minimap will highlight your current location briefly. I think that with the system of town conversion, this helps you with orientation. Just my thought on it, don't worry . I think this will be the same case in H7. Purely a matter of orientation, I can't think of another purpose. H5 didn't have it, nor did any game before that.
In this case, it does serve a purpose, but the cons heavily outweigh the pros. IMO, the only way I can accept having the minimap present on the Town Screen is if it was briefly showed when you entered the town, highlighting the town's position on the map and then after 2-3 seconds it was automatically hided so it doesn't take away space from the actual TS. Or being hidden from the get-go.
But it should never ever be always present, it's simply a waste of space
Maybe it can be turned on/off by the click on a button, similar to the H5, although this was on adventure map if I recall correctly. That way, one can locate the town on a minimap, while at the same time the one can hide it in order not to obstruct the view.
____________
"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 10:37 PM |
|
|
Mind you, I'm not even sure if I want to have the minimap on the TS at all. Just giving my thoughts to make it less intrusive.
@Sleeping_Sun: that's what I'm suggesting, pretty much 
____________
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted August 11, 2015 11:27 PM |
|
|
Elvin said:
I will not accept further Enrothian vs Ashan bashing, keep it cool.
can Varnlings and Axeothians take part though? lol
____________
|
|
Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
|
|
posted August 12, 2015 12:22 AM |
|
Edited by Wellplay at 00:26, 12 Aug 2015.
|
verriker said:
Elvin said:
I will not accept further Enrothian vs Ashan bashing, keep it cool.
can Varnlings and Axeothians take part though? lol
They don't care about our feuds.
|
|
Pim18
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 12, 2015 12:38 PM |
|
|
ART
I am kind of torn regarding the art. There are aspects and designs in
there that I like but there are also a lot of things that I dislike(most notably the necropolis aesthetic).
1. Agree. These games are too similiar to each other aestheticwise which causes me to find Heroes 7 uninteresting to look at.
2. Agree. This is something that is part of the era though. A lot of fantasy games(and to a certain extent scifi games) follow this overdecoration procedure. This is probably done most notably to differentiate every design from each other but as a result makes everything really needlessly complicated to look at.
INTERFACE
This is probably my biggest issue I have with Heroes 7(and to a certain extent Heroes 6). The interface is a mess with multiple buttons doing the same thing and poorly organized icons.
1. Agreed. Heroes 3 and 4 probably had the best hero screens.
2. Agreed. This is actually something I find really lacking in most games after 3. The hiring screen always gave a good indication of creatures stats not to mention that it was a visually appealing screen. Heroes 4 and 5 kind of had it but I always missed this screen the most from more recent games.
3. Agreed. Not much to say about this what hasn't been said already.
ADVENTURE MAP REPRESENTATION
1. Agreed. Again not much to say about this. Heroes 1 till 3 had the best viewpoint for this though.
BATTLEFIELD REPRESENTATION
1. Sort off agree. While I agree on the practical viewpoint I did not hate the battle screens from Heroes 4 and 5. I think that especially Heroes 4 had a nice alternative for a battle screen that also works(If only held back by poor pathfinding from the units and bugs). That said either are okay for me.
TOWNSCREENS
1. This is probably my biggest issue with Heroes 6 and 7. Heroes 3 had beautiful townscreens that were actually ordered well. Heroes 4 had the right idea but suffered from an odd aesthetic. That said I also like the flyby fully 3d townscreens that Heroes 5 had. However I do think that you should either go fully 2d or fully 3d with the townscreens. AKA You either make a fully 3d game and add a 3d townscreen or your make a 2d game and add a 2d townscreen. You don't combine both because it ruins the aesthetic of the game. Heroes 6 and 7 have now as a result 2 clashing aesthetics(Most notably the town on the adventure map and the town on the townscreen)
Not much to add in general. I do think that discussing the art is quite important considering that is the reason why I like this series as much as I do in the first place. A game's visuals combined with clever sound design and music can really make or break a game for me.
|
|
mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
|
|
posted October 12, 2015 07:56 PM |
|
|
I think I have a fairly unique perspective on this in that while I did grow up playing Homm2, I never played Homm3, 4 or 1 until AFTER I got bored with Tribes of the East (Homm5). That is, I didn't play homm3 until around 2011.
In the past few years I've tried out a few older "classic" games (like older Civilations, etc.), and numerous others, and have found that they just aren't as enjoyable as I was hoping they'd be. In almost every case the newer games were my default go-to game to play.
However, Homm3 and Homm4 were an exception for a myriad of reasons, with the visual world map and interfaces playing prominently in my desire to play them. I find these games are brighter, have better font sizing, and are more intuitive.
Visuals are important to me because they have a huge impact in 2 areas: 1) Ability to easily identify everything in the game to enable a player to plan their strategy, and 2) Immersion into the game. In both cases I think Heroes6 and 7 have been a failure, though I think 7 is an improvement on 6. Interesting, I enjoy Homm5, but it definitely takes a few hours to get used to the 3d, etc.
____________
|
|
frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
|
|
posted October 12, 2015 08:14 PM |
|
|
Quote:
ART
Highly agree. Not to mention that new artwork resembles Warcraft too much. LizardWarrior had a great thread about that.
Quote:
INTERFACE
Highly agree!
New interfaces are everything but nice looking and practical. How many clicks is needed to do something in H6 and H7: too many! And, of course, minimap in townscreen and in hero screen, because that is so important. And yet, there is no place for skillpizza and artifacts on the same screen. How??? In H3, you just double click on hero, and voila, everything is there, explained. Plan, simple, and beautiful.
Quote:
ADVENTURE MAP REPRESENTATION
Highly agree!
Since 3D started, everything went to hell. Especially object sizes. I really liked how map was in older heroes games: symolic and easy to understand. Object stood out from decoration, and you could always distinguish what is what. In newer heroes, you have to press Alt to have interactive objects highlighted, so you can know what is interactive.
And another thing that I dislike about adventure map in H7: it's colours. They are dull. I think that they try too much to be realistic, and they loose the magic. H2 and H3 had the best colours in the series, everything you look is just beautiful and full of colours. In H7 beta, I failed to distinguish ore from some rocks, or failed to see pile of wood because it's colour was similar to terrain. In H2/H3, you could do that easily: even when wood was on dirt terrain (both were brown) you could easily spot pile of wood.
Quote:
BATTLEFIELD REPRESENTATION
Highly agree!
I have only this to add: bring the hexes back
Quote:
TOWN SCREENS
Highly agree!
I would just add one thing that devs keep forgeting: they design town screen, and place stupid interface above the town screen, so some of it's parts are hidden. In older Heroes, that was planned: interface was in bottow part of the screen, and whole town screen was above the interface.
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted October 12, 2015 08:36 PM |
|
Edited by Pawek_13 at 01:40, 18 Oct 2015.
|
Since I have such a feeling, I'll combine this post and the next one, add a little bit of my own content.
Quote:
ART
Agree. Every new game should bring with itself new looks. Maybe not a new artstyle, but definitely uits should not be the same. Take a look at Heroes I and II, for examle. While both games had a similar artstyle, they still look distinct enough thanks to new sprites for each new unit. The problem with Heroes VII is that it didn't try to alter the looks enough, so it feels very similar to Heroes VI, at least in factions shown later than Haven (Necro and Dungeon,) as in both of them amount of unchanged reused assets is high and these factions feel to similar to their H6 counterparts. Now we know why is that and Marhin's explanation pretty much finishes the topic. Still, it would be way better if the budget was around the same size as in Heroes VII, we would see more of Heroes VII Haven and less of Heroes VII Necro.
Decorative elements. I don't care about these. It seems that highly ornamented characters have become a common trope for fantasy games and I'm perfectly fine with such. If we would be back to more Heroes III style, then I'd be also okay. Overall, I really don't care.
This issue has arrived recently and should be pointed out - colour coding. A huge ad definite NO! It looked fine in Heroes V, as only heroes' pennats were coloured (except for Necro - purple skulls don't look good  ) and that was enough. As in Heroes VII there are no such things, colour coding should also be absent. It fits terribly with the vast majority of units' designs - bright colours don't mesh very well with rather dark Necro (again - purple skulls .) If Heroes VIII comes out, please, don't introduce colour coding.
Quote:
INTERFACE
Highly agree on that one. Interface in Heroes VI and VII is pretty bad. There's a ton of space used for objects that don't need that space (like specializations,) bjects that do require visibility (like skill system) don't get it and three worst offenders: minimap with available towns, heroes' portraits and UI. They are literally everywhere and they block everything! It is especally visible in 2 places - Tear of Asha's minimap and Artifact seller's screen. In the first case a great window is dwarfed because useless minimap had to be added!  The second one is a very similar case - the window for the seller is so tiny because of, you guessed it, three offenders!
There's also one aspect of the interface that I dislike - placement of buttons of towns. In all Heroes games up to V they were next to heroes' buttons, what psychologically emphasized their importance. Now they in a region of the Interface nobody would have looked before - above the minimap. Now it seems that towns, such a huge part of the game, are completely unimportant (what is, of course, not true.)
Recruitment screen - I kinda understand why in Heroes V it looks like it looks. Units were 3D models, no longer 2D sprtes, so to make them visible in full glory they had to alter the looks a little bit. What I don't understand is how it looks like right now. When I recruit the units, I want to see how they look in game, not just their icons.
The last issue with current interface - where is kingdom overview from TotE?! It was such a great function, yet it got lost. Why? 
WARNING! Next two parts of the analysis will be heavily based on the video footage of Heroes V alpha. Go watch it (or at least part with thownscreens and adventure map) before reading next paragraphs.
frostymuaddib said:
Quote:
TOWN SCREENS
Highly agree!
I would just add one thing that devs keep forgeting: they design town screen, and place stupid interface above the town screen, so some of it's parts are hidden. In older Heroes, that was planned: interface was in bottow part of the screen, and whole town screen was above the interface.
Precisely! Devs forgot that townscreens in Heroes I-IV were the interface, so they had to be practical and very clear, hence their looks still hold up today. In Heroes V, since elements of the interface were moved to the bottom of the screen, 3D screens didn't need the same practicality as in the previous iterations, so they were created to be visually stunning (and, at least in my opinion, they succeeded in that.) Limbic devs sadly failed in that aspect, as tried to make something comfortable to use, something nice, and eventually failed in both. Thy completely forgot about the "interface" aspect and the result isn't tragic, but could have been a lot better. Funnily, even though Nival eventually decided to create fly-by 3D townscreens, I think that their alpha versions were very decent, at least in terms of 2D townscreens. The interface was terrible, but the townscreen was very clear and also looked nice, hence I believe that leaving them in such a state wouldn't have been a bad idea. Oh, and by the way - I totally agree with you, Elvin.
Quote:
ADVENTURE MAP REPRESENTATION
frostymuaddib said:
But, imo, even the adventure map looked better. (in Heroes V alpha - my additional note)
Maybe it didn't look better (graphics were clunky to say at least)  but the scale of the objects was better. Everything was big and map didn't feel empty (what is especially the case in Heroes VII ) In the aspect of scale, I think Heroes VII devs took a wrong path. It seems that they focused too much on decreasing the size of map objects in comparison with hero's size, while in Heroes V alpha's case everything (heroes, mines, towns, etc.) was disproportionately big in comparison with decorations (look at the trees, there are so tiny!) Hence I believe that devs should revisit Heroes V alpha to see how good scale in 3D Heroes games can be. Also, I highly agree with Elvin. 
PS. I don't know where to add these thoughts, so I think this is the best place - Adventure Map Representation. What I know want to do is to ponder the adventure map buildings.
Firstly, there's a huge lack of variety in buildings' visuals. After playing for some time with Heroes VII I noticed many of the adventure map buildings look very similar. This results in environments that are too similar and in player's confusion. Example of such situation is Marketplace and Artifact's seller. Both are just a bunch of stalls with the only difference being lack of a fountain in the middle of seller's model. Other example: statue that increases Spirit by 1, statue that increases either Spirit or Spellpower by 2, Fortune Teller and the Cartographer. All of these buildings are basically a base with the floating object over it. Moreover, in case of the first two the levitating thing is a crystal and in second case the flying object is a sphere. Where is there variety in this?!
Second thing I would like to mention is somewhat connected with washed out colours but mainly refers to the adventure map objects' visuals. This issue is a lack of a fairy-tale feeling. Each time we play a Skirmish we create a story of a hero. Such a tale needs a proper scenery. I would like to ask you a question: what sounds more exciting: visitng a famaous library and studying its ancient manuscripts in order to increase magical prowess or visiting a floating stone to increase magical prowess? I don't know about you but I definitely choose the first option. How can I get excited about a new play in Heroes VII, if objects on map look so dull? 
Quote:
BATTLEFIELD REPRESENTATION
Highly agree on that part. Heroes V coped with that quite well, making all the units visible and scaling them properly, but King's bounty has done that even better.  All units are perfectly visible, their size is spot-on and more importantly, battlefields can be seen perfectly with all their crispy details. I think Heroes V-VII loose quite much on their top-down perspective, as many details of battlegrounds' surroundings go missing, so doing a more angular approach might be beneficial.
|
|
frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
|
|
posted October 12, 2015 08:39 PM |
|
|
Pawek_13 said:
The interface was terrible, but the townscreen was very clear and also looked decent, hence I beleive that leaving them in such a state wouldn't have been a bad idea.
I never saw this video, thx for sharing. You are right about the town screens, and interface . But, imo, even the adventure map looked better.
|
| |
|
|
