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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Racism, Policing, Political Correctness, and Civil Unrest
Thread: Racism, Policing, Political Correctness, and Civil Unrest This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted March 29, 2018 07:15 PM

French inane vegan face up to 5 years jail for saying on Facebook she has zero sympathy for the butcher killed in last french terrorist attack.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 29, 2018 07:53 PM

Which is correct, if you think about it.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted March 29, 2018 08:04 PM

You're right. I always said our democracies turned fascist, no surprise you find it correct, is your natural element.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 29, 2018 08:19 PM
Edited by Galaad at 20:20, 29 Mar 2018.

JollyJoker said:
Which is correct, if you think about it.


How is a 5 years jail sentence for a FB post 'correct'?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 29, 2018 08:51 PM

UP TO 5 years.

Now, it may be that you guys have no idea what the actual problem with this statement is - I wouldn't be too surprised, come to think of it.

The problem here isn't just the fact that it doesn't do to openly say that you don't think it's a shme someone you don't like - buthers, smokers, jews, drivers of posh cars, parking offenders, bankers, old people, young people, err, men, women, black people, white people, atheitsts, Christians in short, people you don't like for whatever the silly reason - DIED; although that puts you in the same pot as racists, anti-Xs and everyone who HATES people because of some PROPERTY of them, making you someone who could wear a white hood and burn crosses.

No. There is another problem. A terror attack doesn't care about WHO dies. It's a random attack for the attack's sake. Saying that you can't feel any sympathy for someone who dies in that, is akin to saying, IT COULD HAVE BEEN WORSE (and in this case, a VEGAN could have died). It says, that it matters, WHO dies. It says, that it somehow is important, when you evaluate a terror attack, WHO died. It says, it doesn't matter when people with PROPERTY X die in a terror attack. It says that there was something GOOD in that - someone COULD have dies instead who didn't deserve it (as much as the actual victim).

And that is really, really not cool. Not cool at all. Hauling someone to court and trying to shock some sense into her is fine.

In today's times the punishment imo should depend on te amount of followers. Someone with a lot of followers should obviously get a bigger penalty than someone with less.

And it's not fascism. It's fascism to think you could use individual rights and the protection the law gives you to do everything you can to undermine them and shouldn't be punished for it - while at the same time complaining about the weakness of leaders and so on.

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fred79
fred79


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posted March 29, 2018 09:01 PM
Edited by fred79 at 21:12, 29 Mar 2018.

i don't think anyone should be jailed for freedom of speech, whatsoever. slapped upside the head, maybe, but not jailed.

especially being, that what people in power get away with, is FAR worse. these same people who are locking the general populace up over what they say, say and DO far worse.

and yet, THEY'RE not locked up. they just might lose their jobs over some stupid snow they said(or did), but they're not being incarcerated for it.

it's the same thing with people claiming that the holocaust didn't happen: it's horribly, awfully WRONG to lock someone up for their opinion or belief, period. that kind of snow is setting a precedent. and you're seeing it spread, now.

that you're ok with that, jj; says just as much about you, as that snow stating that it's ok a butcher died because they do the obscene and abhorrent job of helping provide people with food.

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verriker
verriker


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posted March 29, 2018 09:13 PM

unlike countless other issues where retarded fascists, republicans, tories or adjacent like to have a fallacious snowflake whinge and a barney about freedom of speech because they do not know what freedom of speech is, that one actually does look a legitimate freedom of speech issue cheers lol
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 29, 2018 09:22 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 21:24, 29 Mar 2018.

Someone doesn't understand the system the law operates in. There is a saying that "without a plaintiff/prosecutor there is no judge(ment)".

What that means is, that a society MUST put borderline cases to trial, in order to determine what is right.

Do I really have to tell you the basics here? The police is the investigative arm of the law, while the prosecution is the part of the arm of law that decides whether something is PUT TO TRIAL (that is, put to a trial or HEARING to decide whether there should be a trial).

IF there is a trial, depending on what kind it is, a jury or judge will decide the case, but the defendant will have support and so on.

It is NOT an outrage when this card is played - ESPECIALLY not in France, where police, prosecution and judges work a lot more hand in hand than in the English speaking countries.

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fred79
fred79


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posted March 29, 2018 09:46 PM

JollyJoker said:
Do I really have to tell you the basics here?


of what? someone not being allowed their freedom? you are so wrong, i don't know where to start. that you think it's ok to threaten(or incarcerate) someone with jail or prison over what they SAID, baffles me.

i take it, you are a fan of an orwellian society? because with "crimes" such as these being actively prosecuted, it's just a hop, skip, and a jump to such a reality.

or maybe you just have a problem with meat eaters? you do eat meat, right?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted March 29, 2018 09:48 PM

Let's see, which regimes - until now, locked up people for their opinions...

..the communist and fascist ones.

The thing with opinions, is that we live in an era where shared information goes faster than we could type or think. Before, in order to make you hear, you had to write a book, then to make it proof read, to distribute so it was not like your opinion is from your butt. Now it is possible that in heated debates or even if you act momentarily irresponsibly, you rush and write some shocking remark on the net, a screen is made then no matter how you apologize, you are locked. So is even worse than before.

Beside, the freedom of expression is a human right, in stone letters. It is done so because critical thinking, expressly, is possible only when thoughts are not censored, so they can challenge one other and find a common ground. You can't pursue the truth without challenging the fashions - and also such thing is absolute, there is no range from which you consider freedom should be allowed, if you do so, you are a fascist.

There is no difference in someone saying "lock him for saying that" and any bewildered fanatic claiming you deserve death for criticizing his imaginary good.
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Galaad
Galaad

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Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 29, 2018 09:52 PM
Edited by Galaad at 21:56, 29 Mar 2018.

Yes, there is a trial, and in France we hopefully have presumption of innocence. But according to the article the accusation is for 'defending terrorism', but she wasn't defending terrorism, she was spreading her vegan values. I find the amalgam very worrying.
You cannot deny that, over-surveillance of population and getting sentenced for an opinion or sentence said is  of authoritarian tendency, but this is not very surprising in the EU countries, since people with considerable power there have been elected by NO-ONE (Peter Sutherland, Mario Dragui, Mario Monti, Loukas Papademos...), making them dictators by definition.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted March 29, 2018 10:02 PM

The trial is done, she got 7 months suspended jail. For terrorism apology, they had to come up with something.  

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fred79
fred79


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posted March 29, 2018 10:08 PM

sounds like europe is being tested with something akin to the u.s.'s "patriot" act... not good news at all.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 29, 2018 10:09 PM
Edited by Galaad at 22:11, 29 Mar 2018.

Quote:
The trial is done, she got 7 months suspended jail. For terrorism apology


Well IMO this is just not right.

Quote:
they had to come up with something.


That one is getting overused.
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fred79
fred79


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posted March 29, 2018 10:12 PM
Edited by fred79 at 22:13, 29 Mar 2018.

absolutely agree with sal and galaad, here. i wonder what'll be the straw that breaks the camel's back for people, worldwide? will there even BE a tipping point for those with common sense? from everything i've seen, it doesn't look like it.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 29, 2018 10:43 PM

Look, I've probably written that somewhere, but the current fascist leader in Germany said, it was high time to do away with political correctness and name the things with their correct name - and then a political comedian said, yeah, that Nazi b!tch was completely right - and things exploded.

You know, I think you guys don't even know what you are talking about.

To give you an example. Freedom of speach ACTUALLY means, that you CAN say, that you THINK, it SHOULD be okay to say EVERYTHING, incuding that you are all **** and God is a ****ing basterd and the police are pigs and whatnot - but unless there is no actual court decison about that - you cannot EXPECT to say everything and get away with it. The law doesn't work that way.

Instead, the law must determine, how far the individual right to SAY something goes with a viw on inhibiting the right of people you talk about. Can you you just tell some crap about someone, just because you feel like it, and is this freedom of speech, or is there a limit about what you can say about others?

And so on. Freedom of speech is not in any way absolute, and it's normal for a state of law to check that borderline between individual and societal rights.

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JollyJoker
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posted March 29, 2018 10:56 PM

In this case there is another thing to consider. Publicity. It IS a difference, whether I tell you IN PRIVATE that you are an idiot (or that butchers suck) or whether I tell it in public, and writing it down in a social media is the same thing as publishing it in a newspaper.

You have a social responsibility when you opine on something, and society can call your stance when you decide to go public.

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Galaad
Galaad

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Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 29, 2018 11:00 PM
Edited by Galaad at 23:05, 29 Mar 2018.

No one is saying we can say anything, of course defamation is nowhere close to be fine but in the current example how can you even agree that woman gets 7 months for 'terrorism apology'? The meaning of her post was 'Butcher also kills living beings so he's not better than a terrorist', she wasn't supporting ISIS actions, you do realize that?
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted March 29, 2018 11:06 PM

We know very well the speech freedom ends where it is considered hate speech, a lame concept leftist butt-hurts - especially those from EU council, after letting millions of cultural unadaptable migrants flow in west, had to come with, in order to squash people naturally complaining. Yet hate of speech has a very vague definition, it is a term used to describe broad discourse that is extremely negative and constitutes a threat to social peace. So is perfectly subjective - because, in my view for example, nothing troubled more our social peace than the irresponsible decision of letting so many people entering in first place, right? - but well, we have to deal with, somehow it is in the laws.

Now, about apology of terrorism, there is none in this case. The girl is vegan, she militates for it, she certainly saw some explicit videos about how humans kill animals, which is quite shocking I admit, so she lost her temper for a minute. So what, are we such a sissies and can't deal with people temper, when put in words?

The entire story is pathetic, even more when seeing the arguments of those validating it.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 29, 2018 11:17 PM

That's what makes the internet society so sucky. People who have no idea about an issue opine about it. "How can...?" Well, you CAN. The prosecutional arm of the law is tasked with it and CAN suggest that something isn't legal. It's the pivotal point of the whole system and their JOB to do it.
And it needs them being able to make a case, and every idiot could make a case here. She won't go to prison, though, so the right tone was kept. She (and everyone else) was cautioned - and you can be sure that the next one coming up with something like that IS going to jail.

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