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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Racism, Policing, Political Correctness, and Civil Unrest
Thread: Racism, Policing, Political Correctness, and Civil Unrest This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 29, 2018 11:24 PM

jj sides with authority; that much is obvious. apparently, anyone arguing with authority is in the wrong. that said...

i really think everything he spouts is just a cover. he's probably the leader of the resistance.


*drops a wink at jj*

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 30, 2018 12:47 AM
Edited by Galaad at 00:50, 30 Mar 2018.

As if the law was being respected. Since it's hot topic just in Skripal case the 24h ultimatum is illegal. Article 9 from the Chemical Weapon Convention states that a state has 10 days to reply after such accusation before any sanction can be taken.

Here a girl is found guilty for something she hasn't done: terrorism apology. Come on JJ, this is not right.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 30, 2018 02:01 AM
Edited by artu at 06:01, 30 Mar 2018.

verriker said:
unlike countless other issues where retarded fascists, republicans, tories or adjacent like to have a fallacious snowflake whinge and a barney about freedom of speech because they do not know what freedom of speech is, that one actually does look a legitimate freedom of speech issue cheers lol

This. Freedom of speech doesnt cover hate crimes, yes, but an actual hate crime is NOT about stating how you hate someone, you are not even slightly sorry that they died and may they rot in hell, etc... It is about provoking a real THREAT to a group of people based on their identity such as saying something like "we are meeting in town square today and will be sending those Christians to their beloved heaven." Had the vegan wrote something like "while at it, those guys should start with butchers and wipe them all out," then, we'd at least have a debate on our hands, and even in such a case, it could have been argued that it was obviously a figure of speech, not a literal invitation to murder. Other than that, anything may be not cool or appropriate, they can be idiotic, explosive and so on but they are not criminative IF you have freedom of speech. The idea behind the concept is to protect inflammatory rhetoric anyway, not conflicting opinions about who is the best looking actress lately.

Edit: So the charge is terrorism apology, not hate speech... It still doesn't cut it. First of all, Galaad is right, her motive is not to promote the attack but to condemn the butchering of animals, her content is consistent with this. And the thing is, if by chance some Neo-Nazis died in a jihadist attack and somebody tweeted something like "isnt this poetic justice, scum removing scum from the face of the earth," most probably there would be no charges, would there. One can say butchers are not Neo-Nazis but to a vegan who believes all sentinent animals have the right to live same as we do, they are not so different after all. Only, hers is a marginal opinion, at least in today's world, (still an opinion nevertheless), so the rhetoric is considered illicit. Because it treats the butcher like some Neo-Nazi/Jihadist/Pedophile/Rapist or any other category of people, that millions tweet about the same way every day: Glad he died, world is a better place without him.
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All naughty talking and living are cool - Ghost

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 30, 2018 10:07 AM

That's not the point.

Actually, the point isn't HER opining on THE BUTCHER(S), but on the TERROR ATTACK (indirectly). I'm not going to repeat my first explanatory post, so read there.

Secondly, it's the PUBLIC aspect of PUBLISHING it - that development is new as well in our modern society, but tweeting or facebook-posting something, when you have followers, friends and potentially thousands and even millions who can read that, things - freedom of speech, especially - are something that has to be legally explored.

In this case it simply amounts to taking a despicable thing and link it with a personal crusade - which is obviously something you SHOULD NOT do.

We had something vaguely comparable in Germany - a much more pronounced case - when the RAF executed Hanns Martin Schleyer, who had been a convinced Nazi, had been an officer in the SS and still managed to secure a high position for himself. The point wasn't that you couldn't say he deserved it. The point was

that you must not WEIGH terror/murder by looking at the result. This is true in both directions: a terror attack isn't different, whether it kills babies or old farts, sinners or saints, because the attackers DON'T CARE.

France has proven that they put "interest of society" over individual rights (burqa) - no one should wonder about this. There is the legal aspect, that basically amounts to, if there is a law, the law eventually has to be enforced (to see whether it's good or not, mainly). Enforcing the law means, the prosecution must point the finger on someone and put them to trial. As I said, in France police, prosecution and judge work together a lot more than in the English speaking nations.

Bottom line for me is, woman got what she pleaded for when she said what she said (in France). Got off with probation (of course), for a first time case. That's it.

You can now debate the law, of course, now that it HAS been enforced for once.  

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 30, 2018 10:34 AM

no matter which way you try to paint this, jj, what happened to her, and you, are wrong. period.

your opinion in this matter is counteractive to the welfare of all free-ish lower-on-the-totem-pole human beings everywhere.

that SHOULD tell you something.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted March 30, 2018 10:40 AM

The said butcher might have been killed during a burglary and she would've probably said the same thing, which hardly means that she supports burglars - indirectly or whatever. Admittedly that's an extremely shallow, emotion-driven opinion which usually is rooted in one's own psychological problems but the world is full of such people and the Internetz, the pigsty that it is, is even fuller. Bringing them to the courts just because they vent their frustration will lead nowhere. Applying too broad interpretations to what is "hate speech", "terrorism apology" and such is the road to Gestapo-state.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 30, 2018 10:41 AM
Edited by artu at 10:42, 30 Mar 2018.

@jj

That is the point if the question is “the limits” of free speech, and the question here is. You can argue that our traditional understanding of free speech is insufficient in this new world of internet but then I’ll disagree completely. I think, it is still very important ethically and beneficial pragmatically to preserve it. So had I been the judge, I wouldnt convict her, and keep in mind it could have gone that way, there is always a large room for interpretation when it comes to cases like this and the law is never immune to politics, it
is not math or some branch of positive science.
____________
All naughty talking and living are cool - Ghost

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 30, 2018 11:54 AM

That's exactly my point, it could have gone the other way, but she'd have still put to trial first.

Let me repeat that in Western law it's the JOB/TASK of the prosecution to decide, based on 1) the law and 2) the evidence whether a person is to be prosecuted or not, that is, most of the time, put to a trial (although there is also the option to put to a judge decision whether there is enough for a trial).

If there WAS NO law like that, there was no prosecution and no trial, but - in France - there IS such a law.

So obviously you CAN put her to trial - there is nothing wrong with that.

If you don't like that, attack the law, not the decision to enforce it.

And, seriously, there is no such thing as Freedom of Speech in an absolute sense, as there isn't such a thing as Freedom of Action. Freedom of Speech is governed and limited by the rest of the body of law there is.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 30, 2018 12:12 PM

Well, it’s not like she pushed the boundaries of the absolute. She just used one of the most common, even shallow ways of expressing disapproval: She’s not sad that the butcher died. She arguably implies it is karma. So what...
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All naughty talking and living are cool - Ghost

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 30, 2018 07:01 PM

Well.

I have no sympathy for that veggie fanatic. Maybe it was karma she got 7 months on probation - so what? She can appeal, if she doesn't like the verdict.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 30, 2018 07:48 PM

As long as authority does not possess karma...
____________
All naughty talking and living are cool - Ghost

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 30, 2018 09:33 PM

Or terorists.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 30, 2018 10:12 PM

I kind of get the counter-joke, but way passed it, I had an edema in my leg, took some muscle reflexers, they are like drugs, we'll discuss things later, I am not exactly high at the moment but they do have a hippy effect.
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All naughty talking and living are cool - Ghost

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 30, 2018 10:29 PM

Be careful, that stuff is addictive, although it probably will take a few weeks.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 30, 2018 10:38 PM

I am always careful about such things, we are talking about the last 20 minutes or something like that, it's so good though.
____________
All naughty talking and living are cool - Ghost

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 30, 2018 10:46 PM

Muscle relaxers are the dog's bollocks.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 30, 2018 10:49 PM

As if I wouldn't know. *Sigh*

Although I don't know why you need that for an edema.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 30, 2018 10:54 PM

Your muscle in the leg goes like a balloon, it presses the nerves, it hurts like hell, you take the reflexer, you can walk again.
____________
All naughty talking and living are cool - Ghost

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 30, 2018 11:29 PM

An edema is a cell thing with water?

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 30, 2018 11:48 PM

Yes, it's life you sarcastic cell hole.
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All naughty talking and living are cool - Ghost

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