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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers?
Thread: Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers? This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 14, 2015 11:37 PM

drusain said:
This would be Limbic's fault, not Ubi's. The only thing Ubi cares about is that the game turns a profit; it would be Limbic directors who are telling Ubi "the game will sell well with this skill system we designed, these creatures we designed, these art assets we designed," etc.


UbiSoft is in the lead over the project, Limbic just supplies them with whatever UbiSoft asks of them. As such, I squarly lay the blame with UbiSoft for the mistakes and misdirection that we see but can't avert seemingly.

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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 14, 2015 11:47 PM

drusain said:
The extent will be "hey there's Sandro I remember him" etc.


sad, but true. most people have either become brow beat accustomed to have very low expectations of game developers...

or they are just that snowing dumb(which is what i believe). most of the general public is, and the developers count on that. god, how i hate them. both the dumbasses, and the users of the dumbasses. people with half a brain will always suffer(if it can be called such, regarding gaming), because of this.

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sandro400
sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted August 15, 2015 01:34 AM

drusain said:
because a sequel SHOULD take all of the good things from previous games and make them better. A sequel that REGRESSES is never good.


A very good quote actually, representing an objective statement. I want to apply it to the skill system and show that this is the point where swords, magic and minds clash: devs actually think that their model of skillwheel is a progress. I can't tell who's right: the majority of this forum or Limbic, but one thing is crystal clear for me: devs will change their mind about skillwheel philosophy only in the case the system utterly fails. Absolutely fails. Before they actually burn themselves (if their system fails), all of your attempts to reach out to them will fall to deaf ear. They will be just like "we gave them random and already expressed our feelings and thoughts, what do they want from us? We're making this game, not them; if they don't like it, don't buy it".
And let's be honest, not all fans reached out to developers politely. There were (and are) "issues" of "we're old school hardcore fans, we know better than you, just do as we say!"

Deal with it, devs will change their mind only if the current system will fail, in this particular case pushing them harder (as some of us like to do) will not help the process, but will only trigger the reverse effect of "who're they to told us how to make a game, we already have our team of VIP councillors" (and, in effect, such attitude to them may hinder VIPs work as well). That's not the case with reused models where "aggressive" approach is effective, here you need to be smarter and stop knocking on closed door.
As I once said on SC or to Galaad: find the right balance in your approach.

I hope my little contribution will help this constructive discussion. No sarcasm, I write this only because I have a tiiiiny bit of hope that this thread will remain as constructive as it is right now (hell, Genya's post received a QP!)  if not even better.

And, in the end, I would like to remind you of this little post from SC. I won't recite it here as well, for my post will become a wall of text. I think re-reading it won't cause any harm and might actually bring some good.

Sorry for the bad English. ^^
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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted August 15, 2015 10:01 AM

Thanks for the link: "Erwan is not directly involved in the actual development of the game. He is the creative director of the brand and helps us staying true to its legacy, but he is not making the call on most of the decisions we discuss on this website. We are."

So, should the skill wheel blame go totally to Limbic along with the bland specialities? Shouldn't we then discuss the mechanics and other things with the developer instead of Ubi? But how can we do that if we do not know in the beginning who is the developer, before the mechanics are decided upon and implemented?

If so... I'll wish that new developers are actually not the fans of the series... Blackhole was fan and it ended in ruin while the game is not what the most fans expected... Limbic is fan of the series, but has made some bad decisions... Or at least they should say that they are fans of Heroes X and Y, so that we should know the outcome in advance... :sigh:

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 15, 2015 12:53 PM

Ubisoft says them and Erwin has nothing to do with anything and all the blame is on Limbic. How surprising. Both Marzhin and Penin are lead game designers and from Ubisoft. And Erwin is their boss.
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 15, 2015 01:41 PM

Wait, you would actually think that game faults lies on the developer only? Should we bash Blue Bite for Heroes Online as well?

Please.
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cdiMaster
cdiMaster


Hired Hero
posted August 15, 2015 02:40 PM

I personally tend to think that the bad gameplay decisions were made by Penin and Erwan maybe just did not disagree with them.

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 15, 2015 03:56 PM

As i have said before, i think Erwan's job is kinda like Chris Metzen's in Warcraft. They oversee and pitch some ideas but mostly overseers. I think Erwan's is focused on the artistic side, while Metzen in his day did more or less a but of everything. That means that Erwan's job is to keep the Ashan stories consistent and without breaking the canon.


Also unlike erwan, Metzen is kinda hot tho.

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted August 16, 2015 12:06 AM

Storm-Giant said:
Should we bash Blue Bite for Heroes Online as well?

Regarding the situation of Heroes Online - there is a whole piece of newson Acid Cavr about the failure of this project, where Acid Dragon, Avonu, former mods of Polish community (that was closed because of... too big popularity) of that game and also some other members of site's community bash... BlueByte and Polish branch of Unisoft, not Erwan, not M&M company, they put the whole blame on the developer. Since so many and so important and rather trustworthy people presented such strong opinion on the matter, I personally believe that they can be trusted. The article is in Polish, it's called "Quo vadis?" and can be found here (if anyone decides to read it, reading comments is a must!).

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted August 16, 2015 12:16 AM

Huh, that would imply that we all know Polish. Usage of translating sites is not generally recommended, when you have these blocks of texts.

But, why don't you tell us what the users from comments think in general?

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted August 16, 2015 12:29 AM

EnergyZ said:
But, why don't you tell us what the users from comments think in general?

Except for a short quarrel about catapults most comments bash the game and BlueByte, especially one published by a former moder called Krotos, who said that BB paid absolutely no attention to players' feedback. Acid Dragon's comment has very similar tone. It added a bunch of other interesting facts, like deleting posts with truly constructive criticism and instead creating a thread where players were supposed to write what they like about the game. It is a great showdown of reasons why BB mustn't be engaged in future M&M projects.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted August 16, 2015 12:42 AM

Hearing these words, it makes me wonder how this "Blue Byte" cowardly is. Everyone can hide themselves from negative comments, the honorable ones can listen it out, see what they can change to improve themselves (or something they created). But this is plain cowardice to delete comments, pretending the fans like the game, when, in truth, is far from it. It would seem even newer fans couldn't speak up what they didn't like about that.

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sandro400
sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted August 16, 2015 01:32 PM

I certainly agree that Blue Byte must not be allowed to continue their works over M&M titles. Not only they mishandled Heroes Online (which had quite a good start - and, honestly, I never thought that an online game can be failed) by continually milking money and totally (I mean it) ignoring fan feedback, but they've also killed DoC. Well, I understand that previous developers of DoC signed down and moved on to another project, the game was sort of "frozen" and maybe Ubi had no choice but to give it to BB...
Well, see for yourselves, browse official DoC international forum. BB's attitude and almost complete silence about the future of the game trumps Ubilimbic's attitude.  
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Danny
Danny


Famous Hero
posted August 21, 2015 08:14 AM

I stopped coming here shortly after Necro-gate and checking back now I see people are still doing the same. After forcing the devs to replace two creatures now they want to do that with a lot more. While I understand criticism and personally I don't like any of the eight units in Dungeon, this "the game is my dress up doll" and "Heroes is being created for ME ME ME" attitude is sickening. One is supposed to enjoy the art created by someone else, not tell them what they are supposed to do. Comments like "I won't buy the game because XY unit is the same as in H6" are pure nonsense either. If you don't like it then don't buy and play the game, but why spend hours/days/weeks/months/years of your time complaining about something? Never understood this and unfortunately it appears related to other media as well, not just video games, but movies, music tv shows...

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted August 21, 2015 08:32 AM
Edited by Avirosb at 08:34, 21 Aug 2015.

Danny said:
I stopped coming here shortly after Necro-gate and checking back now I see people are still doing the same.
After forcing the devs to replace two creatures now they want to do that with a lot more.
While I understand criticism and personally I don't like any of the eight units in Dungeon,
this "the game is my dress up doll" and "Heroes is being created for ME ME ME" attitude is sickening.
It's more a "we can tell Ubi is pulling an ungodly amount of assets from H6.
We can tell Ubi isn't willing to put a decent amount of money into this project and that makes us somewhat disgruntled".

Danny said:
One is supposed to enjoy the art created by someone else, not tell them what they are supposed to do.
Comments like "I won't buy the game because XY unit is the same as in H6" are pure nonsense either.
Why? You're basically paying twice for the same model.
If you bought H6 that is.

Danny said:
If you don't like it then don't buy and play the game, but why spend hours/days/weeks/months/years of your time complaining about something?
Because that's what people do.
At least we aren't rioting in the streets.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 21, 2015 08:58 AM

Strange, I was happy that creatures from H3 were roughly ripped then slightly polished from H2. Because that way I/we could instantly start playing online with friends, without having to read manuals and memorize new designs, new stats, new abilities. IMO keeping same line ups while improve game play is an advantage, previous fans will addition to new ones and so on.

But maybe the problem is that since H4 there are no "previous fans", so that's why designers change so much; they still try to make one successful game, from which will paste new branches.
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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted August 21, 2015 09:21 AM
Edited by Avirosb at 09:22, 21 Aug 2015.

Salamandre said:
Strange, I was happy that creatures from H3 were roughly ripped then slightly polished from H2.
They weren't; H2 graphics were hand-drawn sprites, H3 digitized 3D models.

H3 did however feature slightly altered assets from some of the Might & Magic role-playing games.

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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted August 21, 2015 09:59 AM

Pawek_13 said:
Regarding the situation of Heroes Online - there is a whole piece of newson Acid Cavr about the failure of this project, where Acid Dragon, Avonu, former mods of Polish community (that was closed because of... too big popularity) of that game and also some other members of site's community bash... BlueByte and Polish branch of Unisoft, not Erwan, not M&M company, they put the whole blame on the developer. Since so many and so important and rather trustworthy people presented such strong opinion on the matter, I personally believe that they can be trusted. The article is in Polish, it's called "Quo vadis?" and can be found here (if anyone decides to read it, reading comments is a must!).


You can click on news title and/or "gem" next to its date to get link to news itself.

Anyway here is English version of the article.
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dark-whisperer
dark-whisperer


Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
posted August 21, 2015 10:47 AM

@Danny
Let me make a list of factors that made me complain:
1. 25% of entire creature pool are either recolored units from HVI with minimal changes or totally untouched exact copies from HVI units.
2. Some of those units are catastrophically bad in design and/or animation like Lamasu, Medusa and Dungeon dragons. Developers must have known that those units are far from fan's favorites but they reused them anyway.
3. Total lack of honesty about reusing models from previous game. Intentional usage of misleading concept art for sole purpose of avoiding any kind of criticism until it was to late.

I would accept any original art, as you call it, made for this game, as developer's vision of the game world without complain.
I didn't have any problem with these reused creatures when they were presented for HVI and they were as bad then as they are now.
What is my problem with HVII is such obvious and cheap corner cutting and total lack of respect of consumer base.
Lots of talk about dedication, attention to detail and listening to fans while doing the opposite behind everyone's back. That's what I cannot accept quietly.

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Danny
Danny


Famous Hero
posted August 21, 2015 11:21 AM

I just don't think it's that much of a tragedy. After all they've written themselves into a corner with Ashan so there is only so much they can do with creature lineups (Academy is practically the same lineup as Heroes 5) which also means it's not easy to come up with new concept for the same units over and over again. There's official concept artwork for the dragon gods now so obviously the dragon units will resemble them, that's the LEAST of the problems with the Dungeon lineup for example.

To me it's a bigger issue is that they are shoehorning units from Heroes 3 into the game only to please fans when they don't really feel being part of the current concept, like Troglodyte or Medusa, but I can get over this and probably still enjoy the game as much as any of the previous Heroes. But it is pandering to fans and yet the fans still find things to be upset about so in the end it makes them look ridiculous, like that dude on the official blog who's posted the same thing about reusing models a hundred times now.

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