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| Thread: Homm Gameplay Aspects |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted August 18, 2015 01:21 AM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 30 Aug 2015. |
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Adventure Map
Highly Agree. I always liked H4's adventure map the best. Ton's of different buildings for resources, creatures, spells, and hero skills. But for a game that isn't the oddball of the series, H3 definitely had some of the best and most interesting buildings. Pretty much a 'Nest' of any creature with some kind of reward is just great 
Though I'm not a huge fan of one way portals.
Town Building
Highly Agree. Unconventional building plans is tied with diverse creatures in my eyes. Let a few factions have slightly weaker creatures that can be recruited on week 1, even champions. Having earlier access to higher tier creatures only makes factions more fun to play with. Linear planing for creature buildings reduces replay-ability for me. I don't want to know what the plan is before I even start the game. With two choices of champions in H7 I think at least 1 early access champion is a fair request.
Resources
I agree with your point but I think H7 has it wrong because they gave a little too many per pile and buildings were incredibly cheap and the resources were everywhere. They are suppose to be rare after all and it all resulted in the mines being unnecessary.
I think resource requirements for buildings should be fairly large, about an average of 10 minimum for elites and 20 for champions. It makes it more of a challenge and you are less likely to stumble upon the needed amount so easily. Also the one or two factions that have access to early high tier creatures can actually benefit from it. Like H3 Wyvern nest costing a lot of wood but no rares. But you won't just stumble upon the gems required for a Minotaur in the first week.
I'd say 1~4 is a good number for Rare resource piles.
Chance
Highly Agree.
Randomness has done so much. It makes players try different strategies they would have never thought of. Also adds excitement to the game and gives you that YES!! feeling like when your Dread Knights did that double damage when you wanted them too 
Skill System
I have a feeling we all kinda agree on this one. Personally I have no interest in faction skills. They might add it as an option, but is it really? I mean when you read the faction skills, why would you Not invest your skill points in it? I always liked how all heroes had a chance to get the same skills as all the other heroes, none of this "Sorry, you can't do that, only his guy/faction can do that". Now in H7 we get that even more because most of the skills are not accessible. But I just think the game would be better off without faction skills.
H4 got it right with the most appealing skill system for me. No skill was a bad option for any faction and some just had earlier access to certain skills.
Magic System
I Agree. Although I really don't ever play magic heroes. But I do know that after looking at the H7 system and spells the Might heroes will be incredibly stronger. Picking an element for your magic guild is nice and all...but you can't pick which element you want invest skill points in so....
Synergy
Highly Agree. I would have liked to see something like the spell point reduction of the H3 mages in H7's academy, Or to go back to "the Knight rule" of heroes 1&2 with Haven.
The line ups, skills, and abilities are mostly pretty bland in H7. There are similar units in the same tier spots, tons of repeated abilities, and with town level requirements...the factions special synergy is gone. Pretty much the same battle strategy would work for every faction.
And that is when their faction skills come in. To give a faction the ability to do things the others cannot. So don't forget to level it up! 
Hero Specials
I actually don't mind a lot of the current specs. Yes, the creature growth is overused and doesn't belong on some (like darkstorm). I like the creature growth building choice and I think some heroes can expand on that with the spec. Maybe I want a snow load of wyverns so I'll get the hero with their spec and purchase the extra building for them.
What I think they need to improve on is the changing the fixed bonus to a scaling bonus so it doesn't become just a --> recruit the hero --> use the bonus --> feel good about yourself. The H3/H5 specialties were nice because they grew with the hero.
Classes
Highly agree. Nothing to add.
Battlefield
I don't mind not having much on the battlefield, if anything I prefer it. Just a few obstacles is all I need. I wish we could go back to
Hexes though 
Overall I pretty much agree with most of your points, as usual 
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Tiptoe_McGuffy
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 18, 2015 06:41 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Keeping resources relevant in the lategame it's something unexplored in the series, I'd love to see ideas so they don't become "trade in the marketplace for gold" as in previous installments
SPELL SYSTEM
(Agree): I totally agree that 7 Magic Schools are too many, especially with the current trend of having a low amount of spells in the game. One day Erwan may realize he can keep the 6-7 Magic Elements while grouping the spells in 4-5 schools?
However, on the Might/Magic analysis, you are overlooking one crutial aspect: the impact of primary skills.
In classic Heroes (most notably H3 and H5) Magic Primary Skills have been neglected, in favour of the Might counterparts. Attack and Defense are constant bonuses to your creatures. In fact, each of those points have a 5% difference on damage. That's a lot. This could be furthered researched with creature A/D and how it changed from H2 (where the highest value was 15) to H3 (which went to 30), which makes the difference even more impactful.
Here, I'd advocate for A/D to give a smaller bonus, something like a 2.5-3.3 damage increase/reduction. That may make for a slower pace combat, but without needing every unit to be super tanky, like H6 & H7 core units are.
On the other hand, the Magic skills are much less important, for reasons such as:
- Knowledge of little to no use once you achieve a certain number (say 8+).
- Spell Power only affecting a fraction of the spells, and of those who benefit from SP, they don't do in the same level. Direct damage spells benefit fully from SP, but what about buffs/debuffs like deflect missile? They don't at all, with the exception of how long they will last. And that's an issue since combats don't last 50 turns (and no one in their sane mind would want that).
Sure both Primary and Secondary Might skills have been always better because they award permanent bonuses, but I'm firmly convinced making every single spell benefit from SP.
Say Stone Skin increases target defense by 4 plus 1 per five points of Spell Power, while lasting 3 turns plus 1 per every five points of Spell Power. Blinds renders target useless for 2 turns plus 1 per six points of Spell Power. Frenzy causes the target to attack the nearest unit (friend or foe) at the start of their turn, lasting 1 turn plus 1 per 10 points of Spell Power, but not using the creature's turn. Slow reduces target initiative for 25% plus 5% per every six points of Spell Power, while lasting 3 turns plus 1 per every five points of Spell Power. And so on.
This could be furthered improved by standardising the bonus of Magic Skill levels. For example, Basic Light/Dark/Destructive/Summoning Magic would increase the base effect. Advanced would decrease the mana cost of the spells of that school. Expert would decrease the amount of Spell Power points required to increase the effect of the spell (in Direct Damage spells, it would increase the damage*SP).
Instead of a flat +10 max mana, Knowledge could increase hero maximun mana by 5, and their mana regeneration by 2. That way, Maigc Heroes will not only have higher mana count, but they will also use it for creeping very frequently, and have no need to rest in town or side-track to visit that magic dwell and replenish your mana points. Might heroes will have a harder time to use high level spells too, since their maximun amount will be low.
Oh, and do I have to mention that magic dwells fully replenishing your mana points is very cheap? That Heroes 4 implemented adv. locations that replenished only a percent (30/50/70) of your hero(es) mana amount? Yes, H4 did that one right too 
Let me tell you about MMH5.5...
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 18, 2015 03:44 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 30 Aug 2015. |
Edited by Maurice at 16:00, 18 Aug 2015.
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ADVENTURE MAP
Highly agree.
Across all the titles released so far, they have truckloads of different adventure map buildings that allow for interaction for a specific gain - be it a temporary boost, a permanent boost, an artifact, resources, creatures or a mix of these.
A few remarks on that:
- I always hated the Cover of Darkness effect in H3 because it not just obscured the map but actually removed any knowledge of the static items present there. What I would like to see is a sort of greyscale effect over the affected area. You still see the lay of the land and the objects in it, but then in greyscale. When you revisit the area, you get it back in view again (until the cover is triggered again against you). The Cover's only effect will then be to hide temporary objects (resources, creatures, artifacts and heroes all fall in this category) from view, but not the already explored portions of the map.
- Portals (whether they're one-way or two-way) could come in various flavors. Some might require a key to pass, some require a resource investment, a level requirement, or have a time-delay between uses, etc. The essence is to make them conditional, so map builders can create numerous interesting map designs, to control the flow of the map.
- Creature banks should be present for many more creatures than just the ones they made for Heroes3, to diversify the units you could obtain from them. I realise that making too many means you likely can't build up stacks of specific types that your town can't produce, but I dislike the gravitation towards Wyverns and Angles that was so dominant in Heroes3, because you had virtually no other creature banks.
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TOWN BUILDING
Highly agree.
I can say I don't like the limitations based on Town levels. It's non-sensical in my opinion and rather a generic restriction than a carefully thought-out one, per town. Essentially, a generic restriction says that the player needs to build an X-amount of buildings before he can access buildings further down the town plan.
Previous games simply had requirements in the form of other, already existing buildings before you could build that particular building. With such an explicit building prerequisite, towns could be differentiated enough to make each town unique and interesting, especially when it came to the dependencies for base and upgraded creature dwellings.
I would very much favor a return to such a design. Heroes3 didn't display the prerequisites quite as well as Heroes7 does, but combining the two could really diversify the structure of each town. Heroes7 already incorporates specific prerequisites, though, so it's pretty close - they just need to drop generic town level requirements.
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RESOURCES
Highly agree.
In order to make rare resources interesting, you have to use a sliding scale. By only requiring a few and only providing a few from loose resource stacks, you're reducing granularity in their value as well as generally increasing the value of the mines that produce them. By increasing both the amount required as well as the amount you get from loose stacks (though not as much as is required for buildings) you can get much better granularity. A better granularity allows for better fine-tuning of costs for buildings and creatures that require them, across all factions, which in turn improves balancing out the factions.
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ROLE OF CHANCE
Highly agree.
It's been too controlled in Heroes6 if you ask me. I dislike the fact that lucky effects only occur on critical hits in Heroes7. I fail to understand the connection between critical hits (which involve being lucky already) and the proc chance on special effects. The two events both require luck, but Heroes7 made an artificial link between them that's simply illogical.
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SKILL SYSTEM
Highly agree.
The skill system partially hinges on the class differentiation, but has merit by itself. In Heroes titles prior to Heroes6, Heroes only has a skill or two to begin with and further open slots. Progression through the skills depended on the random skill offers that popped up. Even if the player gravitated towards mostly the same skillset over time across multiple games, the order in which he acquired and developed them differed randomly in each game. Also, depending on luck, he might have been forced to accept a skill or two not in his original plan, or may have missed one or two that he really wanted. This provides variety, even if the end result is roughly the same each time.
This is opposed to the linear path that Heroes6 and Heroes7 provide. Even right from the very start of a game, you can plan out a skill set and in which order to acquire them. There is nothing hidden, nothing left to chance. And even if they did include a random system in Heroes7, it's only a phantom of what the real random systems from Heroes3, 4 and 5 were. In fact, the random system in Heroes7 is rather out of place with the underlaying fixed skill wheel.
Heroes should start off with a skill or two but have the rest be open to chance. The odds of being offered a specific skill should not only depend on Hero class, but also on the faction the Hero belongs to.
Heroes4 introduced the perks that came along with the skills, while also boosting the experience yield, so overall higher levels could be achieved - and thereby skillup points which could be invested in either skills, or perks. Heroes3 didn't have this, where skills capped off at low-20 levels, beyond which only primary attributes increased. Heroes6 got rid of the notion of skills and perks with their awkward system and while Heroes7 returned to the distinction between skills and perks, the number you can even acquire has been severly reduced from the start with their skillwheel setup.
Personally, I am more for a setup that follows a combination between Heroes3/5 and Heroes4. The experience spread and range are larger than what we have now, with end-game levels beyond level 50. Every levelup where the Hero reaches an even numbered level, the Hero gets to choose a Perk from one of the available skills he knows. The skills where a perk can be selected is randomly chosen if more than two are available. Once the player has selected one of the two skills for a new Perk, the player can choose which perk in that skill he wishes to acquire (no random offer, the player chooses among available ones). On each odd numbered level up, the Hero gains a new skill point, which he can invest in raising an existing skill, or acquiring a new skill, randomly offered, if he still has skill slots available.
The exact number of skills the Hero can select depend both on the total amount designed for the game, as well the maximum skill level possible. For instance, Heroes3 and Heroes5 capped the skills at level 3, while Heroes4 capped it at level 5. At the same token, Heroes3 allowed 8 skills total, no perks, whereas Heroes4 and Heroes5 allowed for 6 skills, with perks. Three perks per skill is a nice number.
The skills should fall into 3 categories: Might, Magic and Adventure. Might skills should primarily be offered to Might Heroes, Magic skills should primarily be offered to Magic Heroes. Both Hero types should get equal opportunities to Adventure skills, which are used on the Adventure Map.
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SPELL SYSTEM
Highly agree that the current system is flawed, mainly due to the multitude of spell schools.
Light and Dark in our real world have traditionally been aligned with respectively Good and Evil, Life and Death, etc. They are not elemental forces, like the four elements Air, Water, Earth and Fire are. You could even say that while the elemental forces are tangible, Light and Dark are actually more spiritual concepts than anything else. Personally, I've never felt comfortable with throwing them all on the same heap.
My suggestion is to split off the Light and Dark components from the traditional Mage Guilds and instead put them in Churches and Sepulchers and the like. On top of this, Prime Magic shouldn't stand by itself, but instead be a skill that governs all Magic (elemental) skills. This reduces the skill set to 4 Elemental Magic skills and 2 Spiritual Magic skills.
For each faction, the designers should determine how strong they are in the Elemental skills and how strong in the Spiritual skills, though it's mostly obvious.
For instance, Haven is rather strong on a Spiritual level, while Academy has virtually no ties to it. Academy, however, is very strong across all four Elemental skills. Stronghold is relatively strong in Air and Earth, while also being a Spiritual people (even though their form of spirituality differs somewhat). Spell distribution through the various levels depends on alignment strength of the faction with the given element. For example, Inferno will not have Water spells, but their top tier spells will all be Fire spells. Earth and Air spells top off at a lower tier for them; since their alignment is less than with Fire, the highest tier Earth and Air spells available to Inferno is lower in the Mage Guilds in Inferno towns.
In effect, the distinction between Elemental Magic and Spiritual Magic determines how far each faction can build up their Mage Guilds and their Churches (either sacred or profane). Magic Guilds are the way they have been in previous installments, like Heroes3 and Heroes4. Churches function much the same, except the spells being offered are restricted to Spiritual skills. The maximum level a Mage Guild or Church can be built up depends on the strength of either skill within the faction, by choice of design. For instance, Haven might be the only one to build the maximum level Church, but their Mage Guild may reach at most level 3, or perhaps even 2. In reverse, Stronghold may reach Mage Guild level 4 (with only Earth and Air spells at top tier), but only Church level 2. Of course, "Church" for Orcs isn't the same design as for Haven . It just offers the same fundamental function to the faction.
The way I see the Spiritual skill, is that each player chooses one alignment at the start: Sacred or Profane. When the player chooses Sacred, he chooses the Light side of the Spiritual skill. Churches owned by the player offer Light spells. The other side, Profane, gives the Dark side of the Spiritual skill. Churches owned by that player are defiled and offer Dark spells. Whenever a player conquers a Town which has an opposite Spiritual alignment, the player has the option (at a resource and time cost) to switch the alignment. In effect, the Church is cleansed or defiled, so it turns to the other type - though the maximum level is still related to the town in which it occurs, since Town Conversion is not possible. A few restrictions apply: Inferno should never get be allowed to be Sacred, for instance and it's unlikely for Elves to be Profane. Well, at least for the Sylvan Elves; the Dark Elves are likely Profane.
Once a player has chosen Sacred or Profane at the start of the game, his Heroes never get offered the opposing skill and they can't learn the opposing spells either, even if they choose not to convert an opposing Church to their side.
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SYNERGY
Highly agreed.
The only addition I would like to make is that I really liked the concept of perks having multiple skill requirements, in Heroes5. Fire Magic and Artillery made for the Flaming Ballistae Perk for instance.
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HERO SPECIALS
Highly agreed.
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CLASS DIFFERENTIATION
Highly agreed.
I've written a post about it before, but I want to get rid of the passive boost in Attack and Defense, which is mostly prevalent with Might Heroes. It has created a severe imbalance between Might Heroes and Magic Heroes in the past, as well as making it a necessity to introduce the silly concept of the Hero attack (which culminated in the absurd Hero charges through castle walls in Heroes5) just to have the Might Hero do something during a battle instead of standing passively by at the sidelines of the battlefield.
I see the solution by removing all passive boni to Attack and Defense, for both Might and Magic Heroes, and introducing specific Might skills that deal with troop deployment, troop functionality and troop synergy. Battle Tactics may include passives (like a larger deployment area or the availability of reserve forces which can be deployed during the battle, rather than right away at the start) as well as slight boosts to Attack and Defense, but the core of the Battle Tactics are activated Commands that a Might Hero has available to him during a battle. Warcries also fall into this category, as do Flanking attacks and ambushes.
Whereas on a very high level, they could be considered spells, their effects however, are not. They have no resource cost attached, don't deal direct damage (but only possibly increase damage from the units under the Heroes' command) and provide a synergy bonus when properly chained through the turns on the battlefield.
It's this synergy which is so important to achieve the greatest efficiency possible on the battlefield. Since battlefields are dynamic, the way to reach the greatest efficiency changes too, so different Commands are used at different circumstances. The application of these Commands temporarily increases aspects such as Attack, Defense and Morale, or attempt to reduce it among the enemy forces.
Combat Commands are trained at War Schools (building in towns, which also have a few Tiers) and require the specific skills to be used on the battlefield. Major Command categories are of course Attack and Defense, but Army Logistics (not to be confused with the Adventure Map skill 'Logistics') and Battle Tactics are major categories too.
This way, the Might Hero has to spend every turn to maximise the potential of his army, just like the Magic Hero casts spells each turn to support his troops.
Where the Magic Hero depends on spells to support his troops, the Might Hero depends on his Battle Commands to use his troops most efficiently. Just as Might Heroes can be offered Magic skills, Magic Heroes might get offered these Might skills too. Battlemages have relatively larger odds than "normal" Mages, for instance. However, where Magic skills depend a lot on Knowledge and Spell Power, Might skills depend a lot on Attack and Defense. And with level ups, Might Heroes have a far larger chance to increase their Attack and Defense, where Magic Heroes have a far larger chance to increase their Knowledge and Spell Power.
Both Hero Classes have the same access and chances when it comes down to Adventure Map skills.
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BATTLEFIELD
Highly agree.
A return to hexagons is highly desirable, given the symmetric nature of the tile set. No two tiles are connected through just a single corner, like with square tiles.
If anything, recent games like Age of Wonders 3 have shown how you can have interesting battle fields that span an area much larger than can be held within a single overview. Because honestly, why would you want to see the battlefield in a single view? Why is it forbidden to scroll or rotate the camera across the battlefield to get the proper scope? I realise that Heroes7 is more symbolic than Age of Wonders 3 when it comes down to army depiction on the battlefield, but that's no excuse not to experiment with battlefield shapes that are not rectangular, or have no height differences. If anything, those can spice up the battles themselves, as troop positioning becomes more important. Also, increasing battlefield size reduces the 1-turn-smash battles, where a Champion creature charges the enemy on the first turn, annihilating enemy forces before they even had a time to (re)act.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted August 18, 2015 05:20 PM |
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ADVENTURE MAP
Highly agree.
"Also something to directly mess with the opponent. Like sabotage his mines, spy his spellbook, ambush his supply lines or caravans, predict the next week effect and use the info accordingly, gain control over a location that inflicts movement penalties, limit his field of vision. Something to make it personal"  This should be an incorporated feature of the Thieves guild either on adventure map or in the town. A player could 'invest' (gold + rare ones) in an attempt to undermine the enemy in some way that you mentioned in your post. The higher the investment the higher the chance to perform the action, and the longer the duration of the sabotage... But what if there is the option to sabotage the sabotage? 
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Quick note:
H7 Dungeon has something like that now:
Spies Guild: You can send your spies on a “plunder” mission: Plunder a random resource site of a target player
Hall of Intrigue: You can send your spies on a “sabotage” mission: Sabotage a random town dwelling of a target player to have its weekly production halved.
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1) Also, I would love to see Pandora's Box back.
2) It might be a good idea to incorporate a possibility to script an event that you are ambushed on an adventure map (H3).
3) It might be also good to incorporate the 'week of rebellion/anarchy/invasion' when your town is under assault by the neutral scripted hero (such feature should be liquid, i.e. it should be able to set it to either a random single day in a week or that all 7 days in a week have a chance to feature the rebellion). If the neutrals win the siege, your town converts to being neutral, the buildings are intact. If the neutral hero loses, you can gen some reward: a relatively high level hero, an artifact, resources, some (rare/unique/neutral/faction) units who have 'surrendered to you cause', etc. Such bonus can occur if you also retake your town from the neutral hero.
4) Should there also be obelisks for some ultimate artifact like in H1/H2? I mean some very powerful weapon, or something like that, besides the grail/tear of Asha.
TOWN BUILDING
Agree.
I hate town level. I do not like to first finish with the first package of buildings and then continuing to the next package, etc. I do see the need for some requirements that you mentioned and that I support.
1) The town should not be self sufficient. The gold income should be lower, so that the player needs to move from his town and conquer the mines, i,e, the player needs to be active, and not static in his town until he amasses a large army.
2) I do not think that we should have resource silos. Yes, they are helpful for the easier recruitment of the champion-level units, but that is why the player needs to hold as many areas/mines as possible so that he could establish and then preserve his dominance with the greater amount of champion creatures.
3) If data-mined info is correct. H7 Necropolis has TWO buildings that provide resources: resource silo (gives a random resource), and dragonblood laboratory (gives 1 dragonblood steel). However, the player can only build either resource silo or altar of sacrifice (transforms living into skeletons) and embassy (something about the negotiations with neutrals I believe) or dragonblood laboratory.
4) In some previous instalments, we had fort (provides wall), citadel (provides creature boost, 1 arrow tower, moat, and maybe stronger walls-I forgot about this) and castle (provides creature boost, 2 arrow towers and fortifies walls). Now that all of these elements got a separate building in H7, do we need 3 buildings just for the walls (in H7 they are Fortification lvl 1, 2, 3)? Or maybe the first wall (fortification) should benefit from addition HP during the siege when the moat and the arrow towers are built?
RESOURCES
Highly agree.
1) Like I said before. Resources could be used as an investment for a sabotage of the enemy.
2) Mage guilds could be 'bribed' to change one spell per level. If there are four levels of a mage guild:
The charge for the changing of a single lvl 1 spell could be 1000 gold 4 wood and ore, and 2 each of rare resources.
The charge for the changing of a single lvl 2 spell could be 2000 gold 6 wood and ore, and 4 each of rare resources.
The charge for the changing of a single lvl 3 spell could be 3000 gold 8 wood and ore, and 6 each of rare resources.
The charge for the changing of a single lvl 4 spell could be 4000 gold 10 wood and ore, and 8 each of rare resources.
Such changes could be performed only once per map/month/town... this is now a question of balance...
ROLE OF CHANCE
Highly agree.
SKILL SYSTEM
Highly agree.
SPELL SYSTEM
Agree. Instead of H6 spell schools, I propose 3 schools with different branches:
I Elemental school, containing air, fire, water and earth.
II Twilight school, containing light and dark,
III Primordial school, containing order, chaos and void.
SYNERGY
Highly agree.
HERO SPECIALS
Highly agree.
CLASS DIFFERENTIATION
Highly agreed.
BATTLEFIELD
Highly agreed.
Skill system, spell system and class differentiation will be covered in detail in a proposal that I'm writing. But at the moment, I have no time to fully dedicate myself to that. Thus, only this much from me, although I believe that everything must have been said by the time I've post this...
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 18, 2015 08:57 PM |
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I see some concerns about Magic Guilds and how important is to get spells from the right School(s). IMO you are over fixating on the Magic Guild, while forgetting that in previous Heroes games, Spell Hunting was actually a much more complex and diverse system. Let me bring back a post I made in the discussion thread roughly a month ago.
Storm-Giant said:
Regardless of the number of schools, we shouldn't lose focus and talk only about the Magic Guild. Spells could also be obtained through:
- Magic Shrines.
- Magic Scrolls (h4 style, the hero can learn the spell from it if the appropiate requirements are met).
- Magic Shops/Conservatories (selling Scrolls).
- Scrolls as rewards from Treasure sites (Utopias, Pyramids, any treasure site could award them...if you think they need to, of course).
- Scholars.
- Pandora boxes.
All of the above would make the Spell Hunt so much funnier and enjoyable. Additionally it would lessen the restrictions imposed on the Magic Guilds. And the best of all? I'm solely taking ideas from older HoM&M games, I bet it's possible to come up with new ways of learning spells outside of the Guilds.
All of the above help lessening the impact, the reliance on the Magic Guilds in the Spell Hunting. By sheer amount of chances your hero will more likely find spells from whatever Magic Schools he's mastering.
Regardless of the number of Magic Schools you have in mind, this additional methods of adquiring spells should be taken into account while discussing the Magic system.
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MadDemiurg
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 07, 2015 09:22 PM |
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Sorry to revive the old thread, especially it's less relevant after release, but I wanted to share a different perspective on some points here. Also it would be nice to analyze what's there in h7 release.
1) Adventure map. Overall I agree, adventure map is important (it's directly tied to the strategical element of the game). In h7 many of the items listed are actually present, however they are often not placed in a clever way. I think clever map design is actually the most important part here. Maps should enable more than one route to attack the opponent (preferably much more) and many alternative adventure pathes with varying benefits. It would also be nice to actually promote splityour army and exploring multiple directions with different heroes (I think being too focused on a single "main" hero is one of the weakest points of Heroes titles, especially in multiplayer). I would also like to see a number of lesser strategic points on the map (like forts), which provide you with aditional income from surrounding mines and which you have to fight for vs other players (just multiple castles won't work as well, as winning/losing a castle is too gamechanging and can lead to game over too fast).
2) Town building. Overall agree. H7 actually provide decent specialization options with alternative growth upgrades, but some of the prerequisites look forced and unnecessary (sometimes they help to distinguish factions though, for instance dungeon being able to get town portal earlier makes them more mobile and fits the faction quite well).
3) Resources. I disagree. Before anyone cries "filthy casual" I will say that I consider myself an experienced 4x/TBS player and optimizing my build orders and strategies is one of the most fun parts for me. However, I don't a lot of mechanical benefits from multiple resources in heroes. And one of the few benefits I see is actually what OP doesn't like about them e.g. if both unit A and unit B take a lot of the same resouce it's feasible to only build one of them fast, whicle you cn still build C as well, as it requires some other resource. So some kind of a soft either/or choice as opposed to chosing from two creature types permanently. Other than that, it only increases randomness and you'll often end up with plenty of resources you don't need while struggling to find the necessary ones. Some fans seem to like this aspect of the game, but I don't find it fun, and it makes multiplayer much less skill dependant and more luck dependant for no good reason. Well, H7 has 4 rare resources (and it does not improve the game in my opinion).
4) Role of chance. I also disagree. I don't think rolling a dice every time you sneeze enables diversity and replayabliity. Look at StarCraft for instance. The game has no random at all (even damage numbers are not randomized) and it still enables diverse combat strategies. That's because the players introduce enough random in the game themselves, making different decisions and using different tactics. It's a different genre, but the point still stands. But Civ games also do not have random tech trees. Random is often overused to hide bad balance. If you have a hero with 10 skills but only ever use two this is not an indication that you lack random leveling, that's an indication that balance is terrible. H6 did not prove anything in this regard, H6 skills were just boring originally. Were they picked at random, they would still be just as boring. Same for spells. Heroes do feature a lot of fights vs predictable AI though, so some combat randomness is needed so these do not play out the same each time. However, high number of rolls with low dispersion is preferreble, so one roll would not win or lose a battle. A lot of hero fans seem very attached to randomness, so I think making it optional looks like a good solution. H7 has both random and non random skills and random spells. I would prefer to have an option to select spells at guild levelups as well. There should be some rewards for exploration though, so maybe you can discover some unique or upgraded spells on the map (these should not be gamechanging compared to the core available spells though, more like a slight advantage, something akin to finding a stat boosting artifact).
5) Skills - disagree about randomness parts, agree about having more faction specific stuff in regular skills (and racial skill should be autoleveled to some extent imo, like in h6, because it's either a no brainer or a letdown otherwise). Overall some general talk here, without actually diving into mechanics, so not much to add. H7 has both andom and non random skills pick systems, but not enough faction specific stuff for my liking. H7 actually did a decent job at improving some non combat skills, for instance economy feels like a viable primary skill, enabling to buy more creatures a lot faster.
6) Spell system - Agree on some points, disagree on the other. I agree about less magic schools, although with H7 implementation (only certain skills available per class and you pick your levelups) many of described issues do not exist. Not getting the spells you want also would not be a problem if you would be able to pick them (which is the approach I advocate). Less incenitive to pick multiple magic schools is somewhat mitigated in h7 by having "wisdom" abilities that add some cross school synergy. I would expand this, both through passive bonuses and spells interacting with each other. Maybe even intoduce ways to combine spells (now THAT would actually be an interesting Academy special, albeit very hard to balance). Anyway, magic seems quite OP in H7 atm and it looks like it's the might heroes that need help.
7) Synergy - Strongly agree. not much elase to say, combos are always fun.
8) Hero specials - Also agree, H6/7 are too dull in this regard.
9) Class differentiation. No strong opinion. I think all skills available for everyone or limited skill selection per class both have their ups and downs. #1 doesn't work that well unless you don't have random skills, as with selectable skills heroes will feel a bit too similar (won't be too bad in case of many faction/class specific perks though)
10) Battlefield - Agree. H7 did some minor improvements like cover bonuses, but overall it still feels bland and would add a lot of depth if improved.
Will add some points from me personally later.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 12, 2015 10:31 AM |
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By all means, I am interested in your thoughts  I consider gameplay feedback more relevant than ever.
1) As far as H7 campaigns are considered, I do not like all those scripts. In academy and first 2 necro missions you do not feel the pressure of an opponent when exploring the map. You can simply take things at your own leisure. I'd much rather have strategic maps than rpg maps or at least, less rpg maps just for the flavour. Heroes is a strategy game after all. H6 was similar in that respect except the maps were.. overblown. You could not complete them fast if you wanted and you are actually punished if you do some things before you are supposed to. At least H7 has more adventure map locations so you can create a map that requires smart play.
2) Sadly most of the building dilemmas are easy choices. I also dislike having to choose between offensive and healing warmachine the way they have been implemented. Heaing is not well represented in the warfare skill while offensive machine does a lot of damage. And sometimes one of the two is required for a creature dwelling making certain factions even more biased on their choice. Very disappointing.
3) I actually found the resource reduction okay, it was not without advantages of its own. But it was expected that the fanbase would be against it and as such it was an unfortunate decision. Some liked it, some didn't mind, many many more hated it. The one thing I personally did not like was the ridiculous amounts of crystal required for pretty much everything, making it absolutely essential to have 2 crystal mines to build up your main town and downplaying the role of the marketplace since there were no surplus resources. Which incidentally was the reason the marketplace got a gold income in the patches.
In multiplayer 4 resources are not really an issue unless you are playing RMG and the template is bad. In the maps I've played competitively all 4 mines are in a place you can easily spot but well guarded so there is an element of risk in capturing them. Depending on the game and the guardians you may be screwed though. Like in H5, when your favourite mine is guarded by lots-horde of arcane archers. Or archmages.
4) Chance has always played a big role in heroes. I do not want this to be a gambling game but there are cases where the uncertainty can test your adaptability and intuition. The resources or artifacts you get, the neutrals in your starting area, your skills and spells, your starting hero - you will have to combine everything you have to get the best result given the circumstances. I like that. But the randomness should be controlled so that your choices can influence it, like with the H5 skill system. It should never be a win or lose situation.
In H6 randomness would not have mattered, both for the reason you described but also because there were cookie cutter builds. You always knew what to aim for, give or take a couple of skills. The system should be designed with controlled randomness in mind than try to apply a random factor afterwards, like H7 did.
I absolutely love random spells as well as spell-hunting. Exactly because you have different spells to combine in every game. Again however the game must be designed with that in mind.
In H3 it was fine or rather would be if not for overpowered and underpowered schools
In H5 that was possible with academy and necro but not so much with the rest because passive skills were quite preferable.
In H6 it was possible because of the tears/blood system, though with reduced impact because active abilities were limited but also because you had little incentive to pick more than a few of them. You were better off stocking up on passive skills.
In H7 it is hardly viable since there aren't many spell combinations and you have little incentive to pick more than 1-2 magic schools.
I believe that we need a more simplified approach where you can learn and effeiciently cast numerous spells with limited level ups and not the other way around.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 12, 2015 11:42 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 11:43, 12 Oct 2015.
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Elvin said:
1) As far as H7 campaigns are considered, I do not like all those scripts. In academy and first 2 necro missions you do not feel the pressure of an opponent when exploring the map. You can simply take things at your own leisure. I'd much rather have strategic maps than rpg maps or at least, less rpg maps just for the flavour. Heroes is a strategy game after all. H6 was similar in that respect except the maps were.. overblown. You could not complete them fast if you wanted and you are actually punished if you do some things before you are supposed to. At least H7 has more adventure map locations so you can create a map that requires smart play.
I've found that it varies a lot. Take for instance Sylvan: the first mission is a walk in the park and you can take your sweet time as you neither have a time limit, nor an active AI opponent. However, I've found Sylvan mission 2 to be tough as nails, unless you make a straight run for the main objective and ignore most of the map. Point in case: in that mission, you're facing an enemy Hero who has an army in the "Deadly" category by week 2 (since he will pile almost all creatures onto that Hero), who's happily roaming the map, taking your only town by week 4 to add to the 3 he already owns. Even if you have no time limit in that mission, having to dodge an opponent who can roflstomp you like a fly on the wall, capturing your main town before breakfast, isn't my idea of "fun".
Heroes has always been about building up a powerbase and defending it while you're exploring the map, boosting your Heroes with the locations you encounter, all the while trying to nullify attempts of the enemy as well as poking away at weaknesses.
Quote:
In H7 it is hardly viable since there aren't many spell combinations and you have little incentive to pick more than 1-2 magic schools.
You're hard-pressed to find Heroes with more than 2 Magic School skills to begin with .
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 12, 2015 11:58 AM |
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For me campaigns are also a way to explore unconventional scenarios and test you in different ways but I can't commend on that before I see for myself Could be a bug for all we know.
My problem is when you lose track of your objectives and you don't know if you missed something or a script did not trigger. For instance, in academy mission 3 you complete your objectives and.. wait. After a week something happens but during that time you have no idea what you are doing. Then you have to pick up an artifact from the army you destroyed except.. it's not where that army was destroyed! And you have to look all over the map. Just like you had to look all over the map to find all the obelisks. That was freaking annoying, they could have used some quest markers.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Pim18
Known Hero
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posted October 12, 2015 12:51 PM |
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I agree with everything in the OP post. I don't really have anything to add.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 12, 2015 01:53 PM |
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Yet another thread to try and find the best Frankenstein's Monster Heroes game?
How many more failed games wll be necessary to realize that a new game will need a new vision and not another best of try?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 12, 2015 02:07 PM |
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Elvin said:
For instance, in academy mission 3 you complete your objectives and.. wait. After a week something happens but during that time you have no idea what you are doing. Then you have to pick up an artifact from the army you destroyed except.. it's not where that army was destroyed! And you have to look all over the map. Just like you had to look all over the map to find all the obelisks. That was freaking annoying, they could have used some quest markers.
I can't say I had the same issue, to be honest. The event that happened which you're referring to happened for me while I was still busy (and nearly completing) the first main objective I had. Yes, I was slow, but I invested most resources in the beginning in building up my Town and army. Also, the Artifact appeared for me right at the same spot where the enemy army was destroyed, within a days' range of my Town.
With regards to the Obelisks, I've found it to be way too easy to identify the specific map region where the Tear is buried, after visiting 1 or 2 Obelisks already. This is provided that I already explored the section of the map where it's located, of course. Then it's a matter of trial and error to reveal it (can even be done with dummy Heroes, provided they visit an Obelisk first to get the Spell for it). In Heroes 3 it was virtually undoable, even if you only had 1 more Obelisk to go. Maybe the puzzle map in H7 is zoomed in too far for this.
Once you locate the Tear, in that mission at least, you automatically also trigger the victory condition of having visited the Obelisks.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 12, 2015 02:09 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:09, 12 Oct 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
Yet another thread to try and find the best Frankenstein's Monster Heroes game?
How many more failed games wll be necessary to realize that a new game will need a new vision and not another best of try?
They won't be convinced until they get the best of of their dreams. Right now they still have Ubisoft to blame for not getting the "formula" right.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 12, 2015 02:23 PM |
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I'm afraid, you are right.
What's worse - I suppose Ubisoft will see it the same way - with predictable results.
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