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| Thread: Arcane Knowledge - what is this idiocy!? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 30, 2015 09:14 AM |
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Arcane Knowledge - what is this idiocy!?
Ok, here's a game feature that completely baffles me. So if I'm not mistaken, they have introduced a new property called Arcane Knowledge that controls which spells I can learn:
Level 1 spells require 0 Arcane Knowledge
Level 2 spells require 2 Arcane Knowledge
Level 3 spells require 5 Arcane Knowledge
Level 4 spells require 8 Arcane Knowledge
Learning skills in magic schools provides you Arcane Knowledge points:
Basic (Novice) skills grants 1 Arcane Knowledge point
Advanced ("Expert") skill grants 2 Arcane Knowledge points
Expert (Master) skill grants 3 Arcane Knowledge points
This means that when I have the skill on Master - i.e. highest - level, I can't learn level 4 spells.
WHO CAME UP WITH THAT IDIOCY!?
Of all the stupid and lame ideas of Heroes 6/7, this one comes close to the top!
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What will happen now?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted August 30, 2015 09:36 AM |
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In my opinion the idea is great
It addresses one of the problems we complained about, that spells restricted by schools are inaccessible, now you can learn any spell from any school.
What the problem is, is that right now, as the numbers stand, and especially with Random skill pick, you are not sure if you will get the 8 points you need.
For me
Great idea, good system, bad implementation. Reduce the requirements to 2-4-7 and it will be OK
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 30, 2015 09:41 AM |
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You can't learn tier 4 spells outside of your magic skill. I'm disappointed though, while it helps you learn more spells than you normally would be able to, acquiring other tier 4 spels still requires a second school or arcane brilliance from paragon.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 30, 2015 09:41 AM |
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I'd say getting master should allow you to learn all spells in that school but i don't mind it otherwise. I mean, a master of earth should not have a problem learning spells from other schools.
I do think everyone should be able to put all spells in the spellbook but be unable to cast them until skilled enough.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted August 30, 2015 09:41 AM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 09:48, 30 Aug 2015.
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The problem is not Arcane knowledge - this is a pretty good solution in the current, 7-magic school system, which increases spell diversity in heroes' spellbook. The problem, I would say, is in required number of Arcane Knowledge points. As you have pointed out, in order to be able to learn all the spells you need one Master and one Expert school of magic. The easiest solution to that problem would be either change in spell requirements in terms of Arcane knowledge so that only one Master school of magic is required or making no changes in Arcane knowledge requirements and simply allowing Grandmaster abilities of schools of magic to give last two Arcane knowledge points, which are required to learn level four spells.
PS. Arcane Knowledge system in combination with new Metamagic finally makes Enlightment's Grandmaster a legitimate choice, which is also an important point to consider, especially because at the moment only Academy has access to Enlightment's GM.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 30, 2015 09:53 AM |
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I'm not that happy about it. I mean academy's racial gets to boost mastery of spells, the same thing GM enlightenment does from the get go. Except it also requires novice magic skills. The whole thing doesn't feel right.
I'd like GM enlightenment to max your spell mastery regardless of magic skills. But then what should metamagic do?
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 30, 2015 10:44 AM |
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Dave_Jame said:
In my opinion the idea is great
It addresses one of the problems we complained about, that spells restricted by schools are inaccessible, now you can learn any spell from any school.
What the problem is, is that right now, as the numbers stand, and especially with Random skill pick, you are not sure if you will get the 8 points you need.
For me
Great idea, good system, bad implementation. Reduce the requirements to 2-4-7 and it will be OK
I think this is the completely wrong solution to something that I don't think was a problem in the first place! Learning a magic school at highest level SHALL and MUST allow you to learn ALL spells in that magic school - anything else is stupid beyond belief.
Secondly, I don't think it's a good thing to allow a player to learn ALL spells under general conditions. That could be a fine GM Paragon ability though - you can learn all spells from all schools as soon as you have one school to Master level - but under other circumstances, the old system of being able to learn low level spells of all schools but only higher level spells if you specialize in the school was perfectly fine imo.
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What will happen now?
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 11:00 AM |
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Okay, I don't understand it anymore. Does or doesn't unlocking a magic's mastery levels allow you to learn the corresponding magic's spells? Example: does master earth magic allow you to learn lvl 4 earth spells like before, or is learning of all spells determined by arcane knowledge?
If magic mastery determines the level of spells you can learn in that particular school, then arcane knowledge is only a bonus that allows you to learn extra spells. So then in the current system one master and one expert magic skill will allow you to learn all lvl 4 spells.
If only the arcane knowledge determines which spells you can learn than the system is truly snowed under, as a master in earth magic should be able to cast all earth spells.
Could someone enlighten me what is the case? I haven't come so far yet as to have either a master magic skill or lvl 4 mage guild, let alone both.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 12:06 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 15:23, 30 Aug 2015.
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i think arcane knowladge is a great feature that no doubt upgrading the game spell system. i request a fix to topic headline, basically its too rude.
now to discuss it, thanks to arcane knowladge, i learned many different spells to use in different situations which acctually created some more differences between h6 and h7 spell system:it provides you spells outside of your chosen spell school even more.
you focus on fire magic but you need utility in a battle? fear not, in addition to first level spells you can now cast 2nd level spells also, for example there is gust of wind which pushes enemies.
i will edit this post 20 minutes later, i need to check the numbers in skill wheel and come back again to discuss it properly.
meanwhile, I DEMAND THIS TOPİC TO BE RENAMED!
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edit: will continue editing from time to time, when i have more spare time. it looks messy right now, but when i finish it, it will be a clear post with conclusions, pros and cons.
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CURRENT RULES
1st tier skill gives 1,
2nd tier skill gives 2,
3rd tier skill gives 3.
required arcane knowladge for spells:
1st level spells: 0
2nd level spells: 2
3rd level spells: 5
4th level spells: 8
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scenarios of possible hero developement:
1-purely focusing and rushing on one spell school with a magic hero
if you start with novice given:
hero level 1: arcane knowladge 1= all level 1 spells available
hero level 3: arcane knowladge 3= all level 1+ level 2 spells available
hero level 5: arcane knowladge 6= all level 1+ level 2 + level 3 spells available
---1a-dont unlock more spell skills
you have access to all spells but no level 4s.
---1b-continue to unlock other spell schools
-----------1b1: first alternate subscenario, focusing on second spell school
hero level 6, learning a second spell school skill: arcane knowladge 7=no change
hero level 8, focusing on second spell school: arcane knowladge 9= all spells are now available in game.
------------1b2: second alternate subscenario, picking 2nd and 3rd spell schools with no focus
hero level 6, learning a second spell school skill: arcane knowladge 7=no change
hero level 7, learning a third spell school skill: arcane knowladge 8= all spells are now available in game.
2-going hybrid schools together with no real focus, if you start with a novice given:
hero level 1: arcane knowladge 1= all level 1 spells available
hero level 2, learning a second spell school skill: arcane knowladge 2= all level 1+ level 2 spells available
---2a-dont unlock more spell skills
---2b-unlock 2nd tier spell school skill of one of them
hero level 4: arcane knowladge 5=all level 1+ level 2 + level 3 spells available
my conclusion: its much more easier to access pre-level 4 spells now, with different combinations you will always have lots of spells to use. this is the good side.
but to be able to learn level 4 spells, you need a good amount of effort... back then, it was easier to access level4 but you were only able to learn from the one school you focused. this being put aside, main problem remains still, finding the level 4 spells. so imho, it is not connected with the arcane knowladge system.
solution is really simple.
if you fix the magic guild 4 to offer both preferred spell schools, you will offer a guaranteed 2 spells instead of 1. this creates a more reliable system that rewards efforts put more or less, and also makes use of arcane knowladge.
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oakwarrior
Famous Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 12:18 PM |
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I think this would be a good topic for a poll... I'm really interested in how the opinions are for this change.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 12:52 PM |
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Arcane Knowledge feature is completely and utterly irrelevant and within the confines of the system a bad idea. Why?
Because this game gives all the goodies via abilities. Casting for example Regeneration unskilled is crap. Casting a basic damage spell like Firebolt unskilled is crap.
Consequence: the spells you learn that you don't have abilities for -> CRAP (and compare that with Warcries)!
So, to really make use of a spell you need to learn the respective skill anyway. Real example of how crappy this is:
Start with Sylcan Thornsower (Offense and Accuracy as special). Guy also starts with Blizzard andcan cast it with the effect that it lasts 3 turns and reduces movement by 2 without actually having the ability that gives that Guy also comes with a GM in Earth. Dried lands map has this Novice spell shrine, teaching me Regeneration, Despair and Firebolt. Building level 1 Guild with Water I get Stone Skin, Arkath's Bla and Inner Fire for 2 Fire spells (giving me 3 already, Heal and Blizzard.
I have high Magic value already - but Firebolt does crap damage - and will always do crap damage, because the guy will never learn Fire - nor light mind you.
Who cares, though? I have Impede and that ability giving hero attack the ability to put a mark on target. So my 21 basic Hunters attack 19 Striders - and Striders don't ever reach baseline, between Blizzard, Impede and the AI, those Striders virtually stumbled blindly around, being slowly and piece for piece massacred.
Back to Arcane Knowledge. Doesn't do anything except prohibiting to learn T4 spells with the Master skill.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted August 30, 2015 01:01 PM |
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cleglaw said:
now to discuss it, thanks to arcane knowladge, i learned many different spells to use in different situations which acctually created some more differences between h6 and h7 spell system:it provides you spells outside of your chosen spell school even more.
Hmmm... Wasn't there a skill in H3 called Wisdom that allowed you to learn the spells regardless of the magic school you've choosen, so you could use different spells in different situations? This 'mastering spell school' came with Ubi's Heroes. I personally prefered H3 approach (with all of it's flaws!) that H6 and H7.
/offtopic
And I don't agree that this post's title is offensive. 'Arcane Knowledge - what is this idiocy!?' is not attacking or insulting anyone, just stating OP's opinion.
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The_green_drag 
Supreme Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 02:44 PM |
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It's current state does kinda suck. I'd propose three solutions just off the top of my head.
1. Change the numbers so you can learn the lvl 4 spells with mastery of one school. But then they need a new GM ability for paragon because I see no point in getting that over mastering a magic school.
2. Keep the numbers the way they are and give some kind of bonus for every point of arcane knowledge over 8. Maybe spell power? This way if you invest your skill points in two magic schools it can benefit you more than just trying to get those extra arcane points.
3. Complete redo. Multiply the arcane knowledge growth by 10 and have heroes learn spells individually. Mastering a magic school can give 60 points (maybe too low). Or maybe investing skill points in a magic school can give heroes a arcane knowledge point growth of 1/day.
Spell Costs can be something like:
Lvl 1 spells cost 5 arcane knowledge points
Lvl 2 spells cost 10
Lvl 3 spells cost 15
Lvl 4 spells cost 20
GM paragon can become "halves cost of arcane points for learning spells" or somethinike that.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 30, 2015 02:48 PM |
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Would have been so much simpler and easier to understand if each level of magic skill gave access to all spells of that tier and slightly boosted its native spells. No arcaneknowledge system required.
Atm I see two solutions:
1) Change arcane knowledge requirements so that master x magic gives access to all tier 4 spells.
2) Make x magic wisdom abilities add to your arcane knowledge. Except why should that be needed and what would arcane brilliance be useful for?
3) In addition to the above, make spells more spellpower based and less mastery focused.
4) Profit!
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 30, 2015 03:00 PM |
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Steyn said:
Okay, I don't understand it anymore. Does or doesn't unlocking a magic's mastery levels allow you to learn the corresponding magic's spells? Example: does master earth magic allow you to learn lvl 4 earth spells like before, or is learning of all spells determined by arcane knowledge?
Skill mastery levels are now only indirectly tied to learning spells. Upgrading a skill level will give you Arcane Mastery points hence unlocking spells, BUT since being Master in a school only grants you 6 AK points, you need to either a) be master in one school AND expert in another school in order to learn ANY (and ALL!) 4th level spells, or b) you go into Paragon and pick the skill that grants 5 AK points.
Elvin said:
2) Make x magic wisdom abilities add to your arcane knowledge. Except why should that be needed and what would arcane brilliance be useful for?
A passable (but still worse than no AK at all) solution would be to have X Magic Wisdom add 2 AK knolwedge points *only* for this school. Thus, if I pick Air Wisdom and have Master Air Magic, I'll have 1+2+3+2=8 AK points for Air Magic, allowing me to learn all Air Magic spells, but I'll only have 1+2+3=6 AK points for all the other schools, allowing me to learn level 3 but not level 4 spells.
I still think the fact that mastering Air Magic unlocks learning Earth/Fire/whatever spells is a stupid feature, though, because it's both unintuitive and (imo.) diminishes gameplay, and on top of that is pointless, because - like JJ says - you'll hardly ever want to use an unmastered spell anyway once you master a school (exceptions do apply though, I did use Ice Ring unmastered on some occasions).
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What will happen now?
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 03:10 PM |
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Personally I think the game lacks the useful spells such as bless, blind, shield..etc and the lvl 4 spells dont seem very powerful (haven't really tried them myself) so I don't get why they're making them so hard to learn in the first place.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted August 30, 2015 10:34 PM |
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Elvin said:
You can't learn tier 4 spells outside of your magic skill. I'm disappointed though, while it helps you learn more spells than you normally would be able to, acquiring other tier 4 spels still requires a second school or arcane brilliance from paragon.
I have to ask. Is this true? Is the mastery of the scholl needed to learn the tier 4 spells? I checked the requirements shown in the mage guild and all there was was an Arcane Knoladge of 8, nothing about the mastery.
If it is true, then the whole AK 8 feels really token. It would be more logical to just write the Mastery requirement. Or simply give mastery the side abilitie to learn the schools Tier 4 spells.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 30, 2015 10:42 PM |
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7 Magic Schools, Ashan, spikes, yay!
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 10:52 PM |
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Yes, the arcane system as it is currently is total idiocy. Just make it on top of the old system and it's all good. When you master magic-school you can get level 4 spells to it, don't need the 8 points. Simple fix as I see it. The system feels like it was completely designed with academy in mind and they forgot there are other factions in game too 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 31, 2015 08:36 AM |
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I would be more or less satisfied if spells increased roughly 10-12% per mastery level. That way an unskilled spell would be 100% while a skilled one would be 130-136%. Unskilled would be noticeably inferior but by no means obsolete.
And if the formula was more spellpower dependent, that would be a win-win situation. Not sure if lightning reflexes has changed but last I checked the whole thing depended on mastery. That makes it more might than magic friendly and that doesn't make sense. Spell effects should be variable, not fixed.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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