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| Thread: Arcane Knowledge - yay or nay |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 10:55 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 22:56, 30 Aug 2015.
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Poll Question:
Arcane Knowledge - yay or nay
oakwarrior said:
I think this would be a good topic for a poll... I'm really interested in how the opinions are for this change.
As per request. For information, questions and the like, use this thread.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 11:06 PM |
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Yay. To me it s like wisdom but you need a little bit more so you can learn high level spells. Ot could use some tweaks though.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted August 30, 2015 11:13 PM |
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yey*
* needs some work
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 30, 2015 11:14 PM |
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To me, it's completely unnecessary and furthermore complicates things. Unlocking spells by mastering the according magic skill is much cleaner and logical, and if one wants a way to unlock all spells, that might make something meaningful out of the Paragon tree which at the moment is mostly trash.
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What will happen now?
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 30, 2015 11:16 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
yey*
* needs some work
pretty much this. Make it so that having lvl 3 of any school allows you to learn the spells in that school regardless of arcane knowledge. I mean, If you're god at any school you should be able to learn spells from others simply from being good at magic.
It does feel a bit needlessly complex And I wouldn't miss it if it was gone.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted August 30, 2015 11:20 PM |
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I'm with alcibiades on this one.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 11:49 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 23:53, 30 Aug 2015.
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how can anyone say no to this after playing first and second beta? 
my answer, yay, but can use some work.
btw there are unsolved problems that getting ignored and more important then reconsidering/toying with arcane knowladge system.
my wish: just add 1 more spell to mage guild 4 and then maybe consider on working arcane knowladge system. problem lies with the shortage of level 4 spells in game. you invest for it and you cant get it. its like ultra rare and hard to find, with lots of gamble... just doesnt reward player enough. other then that, right now, pre level 4 spells with arcane system works pretty good.
another problem: some spells needs balancing(level 1 spells are too good), some spells need rework(useless regeneration, wierd earthquake), some spells need secondary effects(same reskinned spells annoy me(vanilla firebolt, forstbolt, sunbeam... zzzzzzzzzzzzz)
my advise to everyone: play with non-random, free pick skillwheel. this game is meant to be played like this, not with the old-good-random one.
you guys are misjudging the whole experience h7 tryng to achieve.. because you are not letting nostalgia habbits go. just let yourselves for once to try the game as it is.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted August 31, 2015 12:01 AM |
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Galaad said:
cleglaw said:
just let yourselves for once to try the game as it is.
Actually I would if there wasn't the Heroes name on the box. Although, no, I am not much interested in optimized builds you are doomed to repeat over and over again.
i played 5 times, and everytime i restarted, i tried different builds. it was satisfying. there are still many builds that i havent tried yet. if you are curious, i can make a topic for that, a showcase of builds i have created/tested.
so what im trying to tell is, im not repeating anything currently and not gonna do such thing in near future too.
for a moment assume that i do repeat them, is that a bad thing at all? when you critisize like that, you think of past games as incredible tons of build offering games?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 31, 2015 12:02 AM |
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Needs some work but better to have it than not.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted August 31, 2015 12:08 AM |
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It would be fine with work but like alcibialdes I find it unnecessary.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted August 31, 2015 12:36 AM |
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Ehhh I don't see much use for it. Most spells are useless without some kind of skill point investment in its magic school anyways except for maybe a few.
I'll go with nay.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 31, 2015 01:11 AM |
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With tweaking the system I wouldn't mind, but seeing as you can't learn your own schools best spells currently just by mastering that skill definitive "Nay" from me. It currently just makes the system even more restrictive if that's even possible...
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted August 31, 2015 06:59 AM |
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The nay sayers forget that you might have a level 3 dark spell yet no dark magic in your pizza wheel. If there was no arcane knowledge and you had to excel in dark magic ,how would you learn that spell? Doesn't sound restrictive at alla! As i said arcane knowledge =wisdom.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 31, 2015 07:35 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
The nay sayers forget that you might have a level 3 dark spell yet no dark magic in your pizza wheel. If there was no arcane knowledge and you had to excel in dark magic ,how would you learn that spell? Doesn't sound restrictive at alla! As i said arcane knowledge =wisdom.
That's not the restrictive part... The restrictive part is that I master school X, yet I can't get the best spell without another expert or novice+novice skills, meaning to master single school I have to learn 2 skills. It was even before annoying that you somewhat had to get other schools for spell-power boost, now you are absolutely forced to do so. As I've said before, make this system co-exist with the old system so I can get level 4 spells by having 8 points of arcana OR having master-level in that school and it wouldn't be such a bad idea.
And in most cases, why would you even want those level 3 dark-spells if you got no skills there...? You will cast them with such small effect that you would've been better of using the equivalent spells from other schools you have boosted... and you will miss the ability-boosts all the same... making them even more similar to other schools. Only exception to this is academy who still runs the problems of spell-power and lack of abilities with meta-magic, but manages the mastery-levels at least.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted August 31, 2015 08:15 AM |
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In the current implementation: nay - mastering a spell school should enable you to learn the spells from that school.
If the arcane knowledge system would be combined with the old system it would be acceptable. I like that you have access to more spells that just those of the school you specialize in.
However, I agree that learning spells outside your specialized school(s) is something that would fit nicely in the paragon skill, making that skill more interesting.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 31, 2015 08:43 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
The nay sayers forget that you might have a level 3 dark spell yet no dark magic in your pizza wheel. If there was no arcane knowledge and you had to excel in dark magic ,how would you learn that spell? Doesn't sound restrictive at alla! As i said arcane knowledge =wisdom.
First off, I don't forget that. In my opinion, it makes perfect sense that if you don't have dark magic in your skill pizza, then you don't get to learn high level dark magic spells. I'm not in favor of the skill pizza and the idea that certain factions are locked out of certain skills, but that would at least be consistent with it.
Secondly, we don't *need* a new feature like Arcane Knowledge to solve this issue, if one indeed wants to solve it. You can perfectly well make this a part of the Paragon skill. That would be consistent with that skill, and wouldn't need a new feature implementet.
But on the bottom line, I don't care very much for or against Archane Knowledge, what I care about is that once I learn master level of a magic school, then I MUST have access to all spells of that school. I don't care how they solve that issue, but it MUST be solved.
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What will happen now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 31, 2015 08:49 AM |
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alcibiades said:
But on the bottom line, I don't care very much for or against Archane Knowledge, what I care about is that once I learn master level of a magic school, then I MUST have access to all spells of that school. I don't care how they solve that issue, but it MUST be solved.
Umm what? Master does give you access to all spells of that school.
I normally would approve of paragon to also increase unskilled spell mastery but metamagic already does that..
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 31, 2015 10:03 AM |
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Elvin said:
Umm what? Master does give you access to all spells of that school.
Afaik. they don't!? That's what caused my frustration: Having Master Air Magic, I still only had 6 Arcane Knowledge (namely 1 from novice, additional 2 from expert, and finally 3 from master) but I needed 8 AK to learn level 4 spells. Of course I can't go back and test it because software is utterly broken and refuses to run on my machine, but I'm quite confident that I was unable to learn level 4 spells until I leveled up Fire Magic to expert level also to gain the remaining AK points to go above 8.
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What will happen now?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2015 11:54 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 11:55, 31 Aug 2015.
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H3 Wisdom mechanics are all but obsolete and it was a very bad idea to bring that system back.
- the idea that you should specialize in a school of magic (or even two) to be able to learn every other spells at unskilled level is counterintuitive and counterproductive;
- unskilled spells are not worth jack, they will always be the worse alternative compared to the spells in the magic school you actually specialized in;
- conversely, spells that don't entirely scale, like Frenzy, Lightning Reflexes and the like, will always be way too powerful to be available without specializing;
- not being able to learn master spells when you obtain the master skill is ludicrous design;
End result is cheapening the magic system even further in an attempt to save it. When you answer the problem of availability by making everything available in a rather stupid way, admittedly, then that's the moment you're basically throwing in the towel. It would've been way better had they just copied the Heroes 5's Magic Insight and limited learning up to level 2 magic guild, maybe also give casting those spells at a higher mastery so that the majority of them are not completely useless. Also, it would've made a lot more sense if Spell Power was more of a factor in this equation.
I understand they're looking for solutions, but this is not the one. Nay.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted September 01, 2015 02:46 PM |
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Edited by malax83 at 18:11, 01 Sep 2015.
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I m glad to see how the game is now suffering from choice made by UBI (not Limbic), trying to uniformize the series.
As it s easy to notice, it s the result of splitting magic schools. I have fun to see this pitfall just above the water, and not really curious to discover what s hidden downside.
I enjoy to see their pieces which doesn t fit together, as a hut built on sand where nothing could stand up.
Adding none sense rules seems to be the trademark of orders giving by UBI, and Arcane Knowledge is going to make dirtier the ground already messing up by the flanking system.
UBI : "you (Limbic) have to create 7 school of magics !!!"
LIMBIC : "humm well, humm okay. Can i Ask you ....."
UBI : "noooooooo !!! DO IT ! My sense told me it s the good way !"
.... 2 years passed...
LIMBIC " How can heroes learn all these various spells ?"
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