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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Open letter to the Heroes 7 devs
Thread: Open letter to the Heroes 7 devs This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted September 02, 2015 01:40 PM

Open letter to the Heroes 7 devs

Dear developers

Screw the lore, it's holding you back.

Sincerely, everyone who wants a good game.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
posted September 02, 2015 01:43 PM

+1

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cleglaw
cleglaw


Famous Hero
posted September 02, 2015 02:29 PM



dont you think we have lots of other, more important issues? besides, i dont see how screwing lore can be possible at this point... maybe for h8?

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Dies_Irae
Dies_Irae


Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
posted September 02, 2015 02:51 PM

Without proper lore, everything can run wild and out of control. It would be like anarchy, where everything can just exist 'because it can', without any means of justification for that. The lore is a framework wherein everything takes place and has a place, which dictates the course of events. Ashan lore brought you H5, look at the things possible and present in that game. Imo it's not holding them back, it is presenting them with enough tools to shape Ashan and expand it. And if they decide that Haven cannot use Dark Magic, that is what they choose to do. Because their Haven is like medieval Christianity, all holy and stuff (but at the same time extremely fanatical as we see in the Inquisition), so there would be no place for Dark Magic, which is considered evil.

The Hero classes and their fanciful descriptions all contribute to 'the lore', right? Therefore, their skills are set in the Skillwheel. In that respect, you can say that the lore affects the Skillwheel. Still, had they decided to do it differently, the skill system might have been totally different. That they use lore is not what's holding them back as you say, it is the contents of that lore. If they were like: "You know what? 6 classes per faction is ridiculous, let's go back to 2, or even 1". It is possible in Ashan (H5), and look at how the Skillwheel was build around that. Every faction had its specific abilities.

Also, you could at least clarify WHY it's holding them back. This "open letter" has about as much feedback value as the usual "this is crap because I say so"-commentary that has been abundant all around the web .

kiryu133 said:
Sincerely, everyone who wants a good game.

I just have to buy H7 for that . Or replay any of the others for that matter.  
____________

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 02, 2015 02:58 PM

There's a difference between comfortable clothing and a tight corset / straightjacket . The lore in H5 fell in the first category. The lore in H7 in the second.

I agree with Kiryu.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
posted September 02, 2015 03:01 PM
Edited by LizardWarrior at 15:02, 02 Sep 2015.

cleglaw said:


dont you think we have lots of other, more important issues? besides, i dont see how screwing lore can be possible at this point... maybe for h8?


That's the point, they focus on lore instead of other gameplay elements...

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TDL
TDL


Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
posted September 02, 2015 03:08 PM

Dies_Irae said:
Without proper lore, everything can run wild and out of control. It would be like anarchy, where everything can just exist 'because it can', without any means of justification for that. The lore is a framework wherein everything takes place and has a place, which dictates the course of events. Ashan lore brought you H5, look at the things possible and present in that game.


There are two ways to develop a concept for a game:

bring in the lore (old and new alike), but develop it around the game, adapting it to the game without being too restrictive (which, in programmer's terms, I'd call the AGILE development).

create the blueprint for the lore and base the game around it, which will ultimately impose limits on the development process and will not allow you to backtrack (which in programming terms would be the WATERFALL method)

Now, if any of you read on these two software development processes online, you would undoubtedly see which is the superior way of doing it.

Now, admittedly, there are games where basing it around the lore worked wonders for the game, notably BioWare creations such as Baldurs Gate, Icewind dale, Neverwinter Nights, Dragon age. But they are few and far between, and definitely not made by a tiny dev company hired by Ubisoft.

I wouldn't say I'd prefer anarchy over structure, but to be honest, heroes is such a vast franchise that you'd expect it to be less rigid in terms of its future installments, and so far, I have to proven otherwise with H7.


____________

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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted September 02, 2015 03:17 PM

Dies_Irae said:
Without proper lore, everything can run wild and out of control. It would be like anarchy, where everything can just exist 'because it can', without any means of justification for that. The lore is a framework wherein everything takes place and has a place, which dictates the course of events. Ashan lore brought you H5, look at the things possible and present in that game. Imo it's not holding them back, it is presenting them with enough tools to shape Ashan and expand it. And if they decide that Haven cannot use Dark Magic, that is what they choose to do. Because their Haven is like medieval Christianity, all holy and stuff (but at the same time extremely fanatical as we see in the Inquisition), so there would be no place for Dark Magic, which is considered evil.

The Hero classes and their fanciful descriptions all contribute to 'the lore', right? Therefore, their skills are set in the Skillwheel. In that respect, you can say that the lore affects the Skillwheel. Still, had they decided to do it differently, the skill system might have been totally different. That they use lore is not what's holding them back as you say, it is the contents of that lore. If they were like: "You know what? 6 classes per faction is ridiculous, let's go back to 2, or even 1". It is possible in Ashan (H5), and look at how the Skillwheel was build around that. Every faction had its specific abilities.

Also, you could at least clarify WHY it's holding them back. This "open letter" has about as much feedback value as the usual "this is crap because I say so"-commentary that has been abundant all around the web .

kiryu133 said:
Sincerely, everyone who wants a good game.

I just have to buy H7 for that . Or replay any of the others for that matter.  
Lore is needed, but they cause so much contradictions that it is silly. H5 that was retconned was more canonical than H7. Why? Because it is features 50 shades of grey that they advertise so much. H5 Knight could learn dark magic, and Warlock could learn light magic... In H7 Knights cannot learn dark magic, and Warlocks cannot learn light magic... thus no more Ashan of of fifty shades...

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted September 02, 2015 03:26 PM

Oh joke-threads, why you so successful?

Anyway,

Maurice said:
There's a difference between comfortable clothing and a tight corset / straightjacket . The lore in H5 fell in the first category. The lore in H7 in the second.

I agree with Kiryu.


this

TDL said:


There are two ways to develop a concept for a game:

bring in the lore (old and new alike), but develop it around the game, adapting it to the game without being too restrictive (which, in programmer's terms, I'd call the AGILE development).

create the blueprint for the lore and base the game around it, which will ultimately impose limits on the development process and will not allow you to backtrack (which in programming terms would be the WATERFALL method)

Now, if any of you read on these two software development processes online, you would undoubtedly see which is the superior way of doing it.

Now, admittedly, there are games where basing it around the lore worked wonders for the game, notably BioWare creations such as Baldurs Gate, Icewind dale, Neverwinter Nights, Dragon age. But they are few and far between, and definitely not made by a tiny dev company hired by Ubisoft.

I wouldn't say I'd prefer anarchy over structure, but to be honest, heroes is such a vast franchise that you'd expect it to be less rigid in terms of its future installments, and so far, I have to proven otherwise with H7.



and this is more or less what I was getting at

At the moment, most (if not all) bad designs off the game comes directly from lore like the limiting skill pizza and knights not casting Dark magic, while most of the new good things are independent from lore.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 02, 2015 03:39 PM

dear developers,

screw 3d. go back to 2d. you took a great step with homm3hd, now just expand(get it?) on that. stop being lame and trying so hard to be like everyone else.

sincerely,

a homm3 fan

------

p.s. it's bullsnow to see so many threads and interest wasted on games that suck.


stop being lame and buying into the goddamn hype,

old school homm fans




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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 02, 2015 03:42 PM

Dies_Irae said:
Also, you could at least clarify WHY it's holding them back. This "open letter" has about as much feedback value as the usual "this is crap because I say so"-commentary that has been abundant all around the web .

Because it is a first time, right?

Give me a break.
____________

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted September 02, 2015 03:54 PM
Edited by Pawek_13 at 15:58, 02 Sep 2015.

Not "screw the lore," but don't create artificial confines within the lore. Lore is highly adaptible and can be changed in two shakes of a lamb's tail. The most prominent example of lore affecting the gameplay is current system of magic because of elemental Dragons. How to come back to Heroes V-way without contradicting the lore? Say that Wizards of Silver Cities have altered their Magic's curriculum and ta-dah, we come back to old-new schools of Magic. Another example: 9-faction limit in Ashan. During the whole development process 0f Heroes VI Erwan tried to convince us that we have to stick with 6 factions. Now, he doesn't seem so convinced (check Stevie's and Galaad's interview with him.)

I have a message to lore-shapers: your lore isn't an axiom. t cannot be taken for granted. It should change, evolve, not stand still. Remember about that while writing script for new games.

PS. Don't forget about one simple rule - gameplay first, then lore.

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Dies_Irae
Dies_Irae


Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
posted September 02, 2015 04:11 PM

Storm-Giant said:
Dies_Irae said:
Also, you could at least clarify WHY it's holding them back. This "open letter" has about as much feedback value as the usual "this is crap because I say so"-commentary that has been abundant all around the web .

Because it is a first time, right?

Give me a break.


Here you go!

kiryu133 said:
At the moment, most (if not all) bad designs off the game comes directly from lore like the limiting skill pizza and knights not casting Dark magic, while most of the new good things are independent from lore.


A smaller framework, and a faster waterfall. Yes, one can argue whether or not there are some poor decisions, but I don't think they'll forever be able to disregard H5. I know it is a lame excuse, but a lot can happen in a hundred years (roughly the timespan between H7 and H5). Heroes 5 has one Hero class per faction etc. Currently they have gone in a different direction, but H5's Necro is quite nearly spiderfree (save for 3 heroes with a spider on their face, and the faction banner). Unless they keep making prequels to H5 (which will be difficult because they run out of events), the very next game will have to take H5 into account, and that might mean a lore that will offer a 'comfortable outfit' as Maurice puts it so beautifully .


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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted September 02, 2015 04:36 PM

Another useless thread.. Pfff
____________

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Neovius
Neovius


Adventuring Hero
posted September 02, 2015 04:43 PM

fred79 said:
you took a great step with homm3hd

But wasn't that "HD" version inferior in every way to the original? The "HD" sprites are even worse quality, so they ran a pixelate filter over the originals in the comparison picture so people wouldn't notice.
____________

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Properkheldar
Properkheldar


Famous Hero
Keeper of books
posted September 02, 2015 04:46 PM

The problem isnt the lore imo, all fantasy games have lore. And they should have lore. It might not be the best lore but i prefer it to incoherent events and a "from installment to installment" approach. Ubisoft wanted to create a fantasy setting for a whole range of different games, set in the same universe, and thats fine. The problem is rather that they never move forward in time, where anything can happen. The lore is a straight jacket now because they already have written the events that occur in the game. Sure, some things are not actually restricted by lore (like less schools of magic). They could have spread out spells from different schools into H5 like categories without breaking lore. But thats a design choice, and lore should not be blamed. But ppl that just hate Ashan for being Ashan will never be satisfied either, untill its destroyed and the old world(s) return. And that will never happen. It could happen alot though, just look at the wahammer universe with the "age of sigmar" changes, or everything that has happend with the Warcraft lore since WoW.
____________
"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 02, 2015 05:10 PM

Well ofc lore is important, is why it needs to be good, and most importantly, not dictate freaking everything starting from visuals ending with gameplay. As for the legacy issues, isn't it better if there are not?
____________

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 02, 2015 05:47 PM

ChrisD1 said:
Another useless thread.. Pfff


We can't help it that not all replies contain content, can we? But at least some of us try ...

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 02, 2015 06:26 PM

kiryu133 said:
Dear developers

Screw the lore, it's holding you back.

Sincerely, everyone who wants a good game.

I guess that's what you call being to the point.
____________
What will happen now?

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Zeki
Zeki


Supreme Hero
sup
posted September 02, 2015 09:08 PM

kiryu133 said:
Dear developers

Screw the lore, it's holding you back.

Sincerely, everyone who wants a good game.

+over 9000^^
____________

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