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| Thread: Skillwheels: an overview |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2015 12:51 PM |
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Elvin said:
Taking a better look at the skill allocations, I can say that they are definitely terrible.
WHY WOULD SOMEONE PICK WARMACHINES IF THEY CANNOT FULLY LEVEL THEM???
Same applies to magic skills in magic heroes. It's not just the pointless restrictions that are also against the lore. But.. why would a magic hero be unable to develop a magic skill beyond tier 2?? Why should I play a sheriff or an enchanter to play earth with academy?? OR SHADEWEAVER IN PARTICULAR IF I WANT TO GET AIR WITH DUNGEON???
It's a mess that nobody asked for. They give you premade choices that may or not be to your liking and may or not even be balanced. Like with the faction polls. You like unicorns? YOU CANNOT HAVE PHOENIXES THEN! You like manticores? NO MEDUSA FOR YOU! You like blade dancers? HAVE A BLUE BAMBI FREE OF CHARGE!
This mentality is so freaking annoying.
Oh man, Ervin cracked up. That means something's indeed terribly wrong. But despite our (reasonable) complaints, the vanilla is unsalvageable at this point. All the features are knit in such a way that if you change one, you'll have to change the other ones too or the whole thing just falls apart. Best we can hope for is a stand-alone expansion where significant changes are more likely to happen (at least on paper).
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted September 21, 2015 01:10 PM |
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Speaking of Sylvan and lack of Light Magic, I've found this thread on Heroes VII official forum. It seems that Sylvan Magic Heroes will get access to Light Magic after all.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2015 01:17 PM |
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The day I saw the skill system - about 9 months ago - I suggested (after realizing that the pizzas would stay) to make Hero Class TEMPLATES. On one hand you'd have the pre-made heroes with the name, like we have them now. One for every Class would have been sufficient.
But on the other hand you might have a skill wheel TEMPLATE for every Class, like:
Class: Vindicator
Starts with Novice Righteousness which is a GM skill, plus another pickable) Novice skill.
Cannot pick Defense;
Must fill M and GM skills with the available Might skills;
Must pick Light, Fire and one other Magic skill on Expert
Can pick one neutral skill on Expert.
This way you could create a more personal hero, name it, and fill the pizza on the fly (if you wanted to pick a new skill, klicking on it would open a dropdown menu with the llowed skills to pick). In this case the pizza was partly filled: Novice Righteousness plus two Expert slots named Fire and Light (but without any skill picked), plus the other starting skill. Klicking on a 3rd expert slot, the dropdown would show the 4 neutral nd the 4 remaining magic skills to pick...
You know what?
Wasn't even COMMENTED on, not to mention discussed.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 21, 2015 01:28 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
Speaking of Sylvan and lack of Light Magic, I've found this thread on Heroes VII official forum. It seems that Sylvan Magic Heroes will get access to Light Magic after all.
I can foresee the following fix:
Quote:
Thornsower: "Masters of Earth magic and proficient in Prime magic"
Starsinger: "Strong in both Earth and Prime magic, they have the most powerful protective and prime spells"
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2015 01:39 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You know what?
Wasn't even COMMENTED on, not to mention discussed.
That's still just a horrible compromise at the end of the day 
What we need is two starting categories, Might hero and Magic hero, which can then develop into classes depending on what skills they pick. That is the most sensible way of doing things and the most rewarding for the player's gameplay experience.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2015 02:06 PM |
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Right. Why try to improve things when you know they won't be perfect anyway? Throw the game into the garbage bin and start again from scratch! That's the attitude!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 21, 2015 02:15 PM |
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Stevie said:
JollyJoker said:
You know what?
Wasn't even COMMENTED on, not to mention discussed.
That's still just a horrible compromise at the end of the day
Not sure I agree. If you divide the skills into universal pools (Might/Exploration/Magic) and furthermore does a class-based pooling (favored/neutral/forbidden), you'd have a system that imo. would make a fairly good compromise between H7 and H5 system.
As a rough model, it could be that you'd have to pick your GM skills from the Favored pool, and can only pick Master skills from the Favored pool or from the Might/Exploration/Magic pool that matches your heroes inclination.
For instance, say the Inquisitor, which is might-inclined magic hero from Haven. He might have:
Favored skills: Paragon, Fire Magic, Light Magic, Warfare
Forbidden skills: Dark Magic, Water Magic, Economy, Defense, Diplomacy
This would allow him to pick:
On GM level: Righteousness + any 2 of the four favored skills
On Master level: Any of the 4 favored skills + any magic skill that's not forbidden
On Expert level: Any skill that's not forbidden
Not the worst compromise imo.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2015 02:21 PM |
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Exactly.
It could have also been used as a subtle limiter to make certain really OP combos impossible.
For example, it's pretty clear that you can't have heroes with a GM in both Offense and Defense. One of them is already a problem, both would be ridiculously OP.
Anyway. Wasn't even discussed.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2015 02:52 PM |
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Well, I was saying "horrible" with an eye on what the system could ideally be in theory, which is not even asking for much as past Heroes games used to work similar to that. But sure, if you wanna make the best out of a bad situation, I guess the only thing left to do is compromise.
What I do find unsettling is how people on that vip forum are not discussing potential solutions like this one. What else are they there for if not for that.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 21, 2015 02:59 PM |
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@Stevie
I think it's pretty obvious: some decisions are set in stone beforehand and is probably made crystal clear towards VIPs they can't influence said parts of the game. In such case, skillpizza.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted September 21, 2015 03:18 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 15:24, 21 Sep 2015.
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Could VIP influence creature specialists at least? I can live with the skillpizzas as long as they fix the creature specialists.
I understand your frustration with the skills, those premade choices, but as a TOH veteran and a mapmaker I thin I see the bigger picture - it won`t affect gameplay or replayability. Just play full random 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 21, 2015 03:28 PM |
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alcibiades said:
For instance, say the Inquisitor, which is might-inclined magic hero from Haven. He might have:
Favored skills: Paragon, Fire Magic, Light Magic, Warfare
Forbidden skills: Dark Magic, Water Magic, Economy, Defense, Diplomacy
This would allow him to pick:
On GM level: Righteousness + any 2 of the four favored skills
On Master level: Any of the 4 favored skills + any magic skill that's not forbidden
On Expert level: Any skill that's not forbidden
Not the worst compromise imo.
Now this is a system I could really get behind  .
Need to iron out a few issues with the random skill option, though.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted September 21, 2015 03:29 PM |
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natalka said:
I understand your frustration with the skills, those premade choices, but as a TOH veteran and a mapmaker I thin I see the bigger picture - it won`t affect gameplay or replayability. Just play full random
If we had full random, it would be awesome. But random that is in the game still has the same limitations as skill-pizza. For me, at least, this skill-pizza just crushed replayability (even during beta). As for creature specialist, I do think they need rework, as they are just not interesting, and not very useful.
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 21, 2015 03:31 PM |
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Stevie said:
Well, I was saying "horrible" with an eye on what the system could ideally be in theory, which is not even asking for much as past Heroes games used to work similar to that.
Well I agree, obviously, I didn't write it because I don't want to beat a dead horse, but "give us H5 system back" is an altogether better solution. But that's not going to happen before H8 (earliest, and only if we manage to get team Erwan out of the franchise by then). So this is more like a discussion of what's realistic to get in H7, and as such, this is something I could see as moderately likely within the current setup, because it could work both with free-pick and random skill and still obey their obsession about certain classes being cut off from certain skills.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2015 03:47 PM |
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natalka said:
Could VIP influence creature specialists at least? I can live with the skillpizzas as long as they fix the creature specialists.
I understand your frustration with the skills, those premade choices, but as a TOH veteran and a mapmaker I thin I see the bigger picture - it won`t affect gameplay or replayability. Just play full random
Look, VIP influence is non-existent. A myth.
If you can start enough of a sh!tstorm in the Shadow Council about it, you may be able to change something.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted September 21, 2015 04:15 PM |
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Yeah full random eventually leads to the skillpizzas but you have 6 DIFFERENT ways to play each function. Come on! It oughta give us replayability just chill and enjoy the game.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 21, 2015 04:19 PM |
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Or it would if most hero specs weren't worthless.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted September 21, 2015 04:25 PM |
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Yeah that`s what I am talking about. Let`s make an uprising about creature specs then we will have at least something. Skillpizzas are never gonna change. At least creature spec. is something easy they can add even in last week. Who gives a damn about testing we will test it and provide feedback before patch 1.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 21, 2015 04:30 PM |
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Then people need to massively revolt for it down the blog, is the only way I see, and even that one does not guarantee 100% success.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 21, 2015 04:39 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Look, VIP influence is non-existent. A myth.
If you can start enough of a sh!tstorm in the Shadow Council about it, you may be able to change something.
that should be VUP then lol
serious question though, why do you guys stay in the VIP forum if you all know it's just a stupid dog and pony show that serves no purpose and may actually be giving a misleading impression to both random fans and Ubisoft, lol
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