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Zenofex
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posted September 24, 2015 09:06 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 21:07, 24 Sep 2015.
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What news, fred? The news I watch and read are about how many refugees should each country accept and how Hungarians beat refugees at their border and how Germany preaches humaneness all the while saying that it won't let the refugees decide where to settle (despite inviting them in an incredibly clumsy manner just before that) and so on. I have not seen any major discussion about the security issues of the crisis. As for the HC, I admit that I haven't read every single post in this thread but what I've read - most of it - is about whether Europe should like or dislike Islam within its borders.
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fred79
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posted September 24, 2015 09:25 PM |
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the news here in the states have discussed with certainty that some of those in the exodus are members of isis(it'd be too great an opportunity NOT to be). besides the fact that people who have responded in this thread that you created, have mentioned it. which is why i don't see how you think nobody has brought it up before, or discussed it.
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EnergyZ
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President of MM Wiki
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posted September 25, 2015 01:37 PM |
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Damn, are people unwise or what? Heard about the people's protest in Paris against these refugees. As if they did not know if the people staying in Syria had three options: join Assad's armies, ISIL or just die. Ugh, one problem just leads to the other.
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Locksley
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posted September 25, 2015 05:08 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
Locksley said:
The conclusion must be that Islamization will never happen, especially if the European states (and people) are welcoming and supporting to immigrants and increase various forms of foreign aid so that people can live a good life anywhere.
That's a big IF, one that certainly cannot be achieved easily.
Besides, this human rights declaration certainly won't stop countries like Hungary to reopen its borders, due to their "preserving integrity of EU countries" argument.
A big IF, yes, but not necessary.
The point is that even if nothing really changes in how Muslims are met by the state and majority, most of them are still secular and think that human rights are good. Even many or most among the pious Muslims who think that Christians are doing things in a wrong way, don't have it as their quest to convert us, neither with terrorism nor legislation (tolerating People of the Book). And 10 % of the population is not a majority.
Since both Christian and Muslim Europeans normally think that human rights are important, and like the open and free society we have, and think that it's good to be nice to people, we can achieve many things by being welcoming and supportive to new immigrants.
Those who worry about Muslims being dangerous your life style could consider that there is actually not much reason to be worried, which means that it's just a waste of time to have endless discussions about and campaigns against immigration, and that being welcoming and supportive will make them share your values.
EnergyZ said:
Damn, are people unwise or what? Heard about the people's protest in Paris against these refugees. As if they did not know if the people staying in Syria had three options: join Assad's armies, ISIL or just die. Ugh, one problem just leads to the other.
Clearly.
Zenofex said:
For some reason nobody even considers the possibility of infiltrated jihadists among the refugees/emigrants when this thing is discussed.
According to analysts it would be stupid to pay expensively to smugglers to transport your jihadist on dangerous boats, when that jihadist is a European Citizen with a passport who could travel on cheap and safe airplanes.
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Neraus
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posted September 25, 2015 05:18 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 17:19, 25 Sep 2015.
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The only boats that sink are the ones who escape the Italian Navy's eyes though.
A thing that sparked outrage in some circles was when we discovered that our navy was basically collaborating with the smugglers by stationing near the coast of Libya, facilitating their trip to Italy.
And anyway, there are "luxury" boats that are meant for ISIS members, these ones are either more apt to cross the sea or are capable of launching an SOS, thus allowing them to cross unharmed.
Also, as the recent events have demonstrated, terrorists on boats is a thing of the past, they could just as easily blend in with the crowds of migrants by land and take a false passport with them anyway.
EDIT: I forgot, ISIS can force the smugglers to board their members, they can force a discount on the trip.
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ANTUDO
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fuChris
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posted September 25, 2015 05:39 PM |
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Edited by fuChris at 17:40, 25 Sep 2015.
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Locksley said:
Those who worry about Muslims being dangerous your life style could consider that there is actually not much reason to be worried, which means that it's just a waste of time to have endless discussions about and campaigns against immigration, and that being welcoming and supportive will make them share your values.
That is nice and all but not true in real life. No-go zones where state law isn't enforced but shria law is do exist. France and Britain both have well documented areas with such problems that can end up as breeding-grounds for homegrown terrorist cells. Clearly the integration process is fatally flawed due to fears and prejudice from both sides. Multyplying the ammount of such gettos through increased immigration can not end up well.
It is also obvious that this is a muslim issue and not a povery issue. Other foreign nationals like the chinese that are high in numbers in european countries don't have this problem. While they may mix with their own kind more instead of the locals but they don't take the law into their own hands.
At worst they may end up quoting Confucius to your face but won't demand of you to remove icons/pictures/foods from their presence because it offends their sensibilities.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Neraus
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posted September 25, 2015 06:00 PM |
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The Chinese come to conduct business, they want to sell their low quality discounted cheap imitations of loved products, they have to blend in.
Also there's the fact that they're either Atheist, Taoist or Christian, so they can't be really at odds with the natives.
In fact, Chinese migrants have a lot more in common with the west than middle eastern migrants, what are the odds...
Also, they come in planes and trains...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Zenofex
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posted September 25, 2015 07:34 PM |
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Locksley said:
According to analysts it would be stupid to pay expensively to smugglers to transport your jihadist on dangerous boats, when that jihadist is a European Citizen with a passport who could travel on cheap and safe airplanes.
What boats? There are at least 2 million people coming from Syria and elsewhere in the Middle East in Turkey alone already, many of them are headed to Europe. Many already ARE in Europe. The vast majority of them aren't "smuggled", let alone by boats. Find some other analysts.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted September 26, 2015 05:02 AM |
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European politics seems a lot more interesting than America's. Over here, all we got are the US and their little snowes.
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Locksley
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posted September 28, 2015 12:36 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 13:07, 28 Sep 2015.
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Hi, sorry for a late reply, was at a choir gathering which was great fun! Only except that performing our second national anthem about Sweden’s Flag looking like a summer sunbeam made both choir and audience feel uncomfortable.  to Sweden Democrats for trying to hijack the name of the nation. fuChris said:
Locksley said:
Those who worry about Muslims being dangerous your life style could consider that there is actually not much reason to be worried, which means that it's just a waste of time to have endless discussions about and campaigns against immigration, and that being welcoming and supportive will make them share your values.
That is nice and all but not true in real life. No-go zones where state law isn't enforced but shria law is do exist. France and Britain both have well documented areas with such problems that can end up as breeding-grounds for homegrown terrorist cells. Clearly the integration process is fatally flawed due to fears and prejudice from both sides. Multyplying the ammount of such gettos through increased immigration can not end up well.
It is also obvious that this is a muslim issue and not a povery issue. Other foreign nationals like the chinese that are high in numbers in european countries don't have this problem. While they may mix with their own kind more instead of the locals but they don't take the law into their own hands.
At worst they may end up quoting Confucius to your face but won't demand of you to remove icons/pictures/foods from their presence because it offends their sensibilities.
We have such zones here as well: When the public service TV News visited one such area with a famous former Muslim they were quickly threatened by a mob and a guy saying “This is not Sweden”.
THAT is an unacceptable violation against Human Rights and a problem that should be discussed – and solved by the State (not by a mob and a guy saying that this IS Sweden) using a range of resources from the police to education and other support so that those persons with THAT ideology are not allowed to have any influence, and so that those threatened by them can make their own choices.
But closing the borders is NOT a part of the solution because it is a Human Right to seek and enjoy asylum in other countries. States should solve the problems with lack of respect for Human Rights in the no-go zones in Europe, instead of making Europe a no-go zone that doesn’t respect Human Rights.
And make sure that those who immigrate during and after the current refugee crisis DON’T end up in the no-go zones, by being welcoming and supportive so that they become integrated in the society that respects Human Rights.
Obviously integration has failed in certain areas during earlier periods due to earlier mistakes which shouldn’t be repeated, but despite that, if one zoom out and look at the whole picture, like I did in my previous posts, one will find that “there is actually not much reason to be worried”.
@ Neraus and Zenofex
I think you are right about that some terrorists hide in some refugee groups, but I was in a hurry to catch the train to that choir gathering, and just wanted to quickly mention an additional thing about what the whole discussion here the day before had been about.
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Salamandre
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posted September 28, 2015 10:13 PM |
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fred79
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posted September 28, 2015 10:31 PM |
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@ sal: what were they rioting about? what's the backstory?
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Salamandre
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posted September 28, 2015 10:56 PM |
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Every two months or so, we have such circus in one of major cities.
One must go on youtube to see them, those coverages will never see light on national medias. You see the police in background, looking and doing nothing? That's how it goes, every time, to not hurt a certain race sensibilities.
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fred79
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posted September 28, 2015 11:09 PM |
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but why are they rioting?
that's what i don't understand; i already know that the authorities' hands are tied with public relations; we have the same thing here in the states. of course, the cops over here sometimes like to go just as crazy as the civilians, so i'm not sure our issues are exactly the same or not...
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Salamandre
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posted September 28, 2015 11:36 PM |
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Muslims riots in France are always due to same situations: a) police asked her papers to a woman wearing full burka b) police tracked some motorized thieves and they get accidentally killed because over-speed, c) police tracked some thieves then they get killed because they do something stupid, like entering in a power plant without protections.
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fred79
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posted September 28, 2015 11:44 PM |
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do you think the muslims there view it as discrimination, even when they might be breaking laws? if so, then that's the same thing that's happening in the states, between some black communities and the cops. but as i said, the cops here are more likely to do something stupid or overly aggressive as well. i don't know how cops are over there; they're most likely of the same stock around the world, depending on the populace they watch over.
when i was in germany, the cops were corrupt even though i never saw any german there get out of line(though i'm sure it has to happen sometimes); so they may be an exception to that more general rule, regarding police vs communities.
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Salamandre
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posted September 28, 2015 11:53 PM |
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The cops attitude in US will provoke sooner or later an enormous riot, if they don't start to get trained properly. I've seen some shocking videos and indeed some loose their temper way too fast. Nothing to do with situation in Europe.
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fred79
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posted September 29, 2015 12:34 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 19:26, 29 Sep 2015.
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yeah, it would make sense that the cops are more subdued in europe, because they don't face an potentially armed populace. which is a good thing for citizens of the states, regardless of what the non-gun people* think.
i think this discussion actually belongs in the "policing" thread... but i'm done if you are. 
*edited for content.
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Locksley
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posted September 29, 2015 11:34 AM |
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Edited by Locksley at 11:44, 29 Sep 2015.
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Salamandre said:
Contrariwise, I think we have a lot to worry about.
Similarily, I’m worried by that too. Luckily it doesn’t happen everywhere all the time.
In the city I live in, 31 % are born abroad and 11 % are born in Sweden and have two parents born abroad. The five largest “abroads” are Iraq (11k), Yugoslavia (8k), Denmark (8 k), Poland (7k) and Bosnia-Herzegovina (6k). I also know that Chile, Iran, Palestine, Lebanon and now Syria are large “abroads”. When the largest riots occurred in 2008, they occurred in parts of one city district and 100-200 persons took part in the riots.
But yes, it’s that there exists environments where riots are triggered and I wish that more was done to prevent and stop them.
However, that’s not a reason for the EU to close its borders for refugees. Immigration is something else regulated by international declarations and conventions meant to protect people.
In that sense immigration is a solution to individuals' problems, while wars, famines and riots are other problems with other solutions.fred79 said:
i think this discussion actually belongs in the "policing" thread... but i'm done if you are.
Policing, politics, poverty, education, segregation, integration, foreign aid, religion, ideology, and more threads...
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Doomforge
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posted September 29, 2015 02:28 PM |
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fred79 said:
yeah, it would make sense that the cops are more subdued in europe, because they don't face an potentially armed populace. which is a good thing for citizens of the states, regardless of what the non-gun nuts think.
Can you kindly not call anti-gun people "nuts"? Thanks in advance.
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This thread is pages long: 
