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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: EU's refugee crisis
Thread: EU's refugee crisis This thread is 26 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 ... 22 23 24 25 26 · «PREV / NEXT»
fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted September 18, 2015 04:58 PM

Tsar-Ivor said:
Don't look like refugees worthy of any pity, more like an angry horde of pests.
While that is not entirely true it does put the critisism Hungary has recieved into context. What exactly were pregnant women and children doing in the middle of an angry mob. Not to mention the calls for financial backlash by prominent european politicans (which btw is completely illegal according to EU law).

As for needing Libyas approval to sink ships illegaly traversing forbidden waters? I don't buy it. So what if they need to be sinked  near Italian shores. As long as they can't go back for another round of people it is already worth it.
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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
posted September 18, 2015 05:35 PM

Look, if it was for our nationalists we would have sinked those ships since the beginning of it all, actually, there were talks of invading Libya, which I would see as a great idea actually, let's bring back the Italian empire .

The problem is that these ships are used only one time, either because they sink during the trip, meaning that our navy needs to save them, or because they reach Sicily and thus they get their ships confiscated.

We actually have a mob operating in the sector of human trafficking, considering that this is the reason that the government of the city of Rome is currently being investigated for mafious infiltration, it's actually pretty profitable to ship these guys from Libya to Europe.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.

ANTUDO

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 18, 2015 05:41 PM

What does the free market have to do with anything? Individual exchanges certainly exist in many kinds of societies, but that isn't enough for there to be a market, even a non-free one. There's never been a free market anywhere in the history of the world, and as far as relative freedom is concerned, people have lived in unfree conditions for most of history. So saying that the free market finds a way is too optimistic.

It's difficult for a country to move from wealth to poverty. It's easier for individuals to move from a poor country to a rich one where they can live better.
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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted September 18, 2015 06:22 PM

gatecrasher said:

I think the label economic immigrants is nothing short of racism.


What I don't like about ethnic people isn't their race. I don't mind anything that isn't invasive. What I don't like is how those people have no link to the land they live on, and thus will take on more egoist decisions and political opinions more often than the average. That is also applied to white people heading in a poor country ; they often travel there with plenty of money in their pockets, open factories, hire locals for 1 $ an hour, and the moment they ask for 1.5 $ an hour, they abandon it and open a factory elsewhere.

My guess is that if everyone in the world was treated equally with equal pay for equal work using a single, worldwide money and no war was going on, everybody would stay in their own country and we wouldn't be subjected to this daily dose of race, peace, love, equity and ironic comments that Im getting so tired of hearing.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 18, 2015 07:16 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 19:19, 18 Sep 2015.

I'm soon to become an economic refugee as well, so I can only sympathize with those people.

When your country is just deep, deep ****hole and all you can do is watch how other people get 4x as much money as you do doing the same job (just in a different country)... well, everyone has a breaking point, I guess.

I wish the world gave more chances for equality, but it seems that emigration is the only way to combat the Random-number-generator that has thrown you into a ****ty country at birth.

And I'm aware that those that got lucky and got born in America, Germany or Australia are jealously defending their wonderlands, but... well, their hurt feelings are better than my failed life, I guess.

I'm kinda surprised people expect others to live in such **** holes as Syria or Poland, to be honest.


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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 18, 2015 07:46 PM

We are not jealously defending anything from "strangers". People just learned the hard way that 1 muslim = problems, then everyone knows the multiplication table.

Two opposite cultures will always clash and the main problem remains that the most tolerant one has to give up. Always.

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted September 18, 2015 07:54 PM

I've lived surrounded by Muslims my entire life and I've never had to learn that "the hard way".

It's simply false and any problems arising can and should be blamed on failed integration on behalf of the country who failed these people.
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted September 18, 2015 07:55 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 20:02, 18 Sep 2015.

Salamandre said:
We are not jealously defending anything from "strangers". People just learned the hard way that 1 muslim = problems, then everyone knows the multiplication table.

Two opposite cultures will always clash and the main problem remains that the most tolerant one has to give up. Always.

Indeed. In our countries we have learnt a lot of these lessons that countries like Syria for instance, have not. I am not saying everything was learnt the hard way, but the fact remains that our countries valued peace and democracy and so decided that war was not exactly the best option anymore.
Without trying to sound too blunt, we got fed up with wars in our homes and frankly, if they still keep fighting, then they want war. No matter how you slice the arguments, that is what it comes down to. For the wars are still raging.
kiryu133 said:
I've lived surrounded by Muslims my entire life and I've never had to learn that "the hard way".
It's simply false and any problems arising can and should be blamed on failed integration on behalf of the country who failed these people.

Who gives you judge right here? Just because you may have lived next by to some peaceful muslims does not change the fact that there is an overwhelming amount of troublesome reports of them acting out in many different corners of the world.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 18, 2015 08:04 PM

kiryu133 said:
my entire life


That would be 20 years, if your profile is right. This also means that you probably have no job, so finally what you do is asking the others to work their ass down to support your "ideals".


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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
posted September 18, 2015 08:15 PM
Edited by Neraus at 20:16, 18 Sep 2015.

@kiryu
You have to realize that integration is an hard process, most of the time it requires being both tolerant and ironfisted.

I'll make an example using Muslims since it's the biggest group in these migrant waves.

You simply don't allow muslims to approve special laws coming from the Quran as well as you don't make laws to estrange muslims from public life.

We've had 200 years of Muslim domination, the resident Byzantines were either slaughtered or reduced to Dhimmis, the seconds at least survived, but they had laws prohibiting them to hold public office and building new churches, fortunately Sicily being Sicily our Arabs were kinder and didn't go on rampages against the local Greeks, and brought new meals and fruits (to which we're grateful, I consider that as a scarce repayment for the Greeks that were murdered, but hey, that made us the greatest cuisine in the world) when the Normans came they allowed the Arabs to stay under regulation, which at the difference of the previous rulers meant that the Saracens could maintain their privileges, coins would maintain the Arabic script, at the cost of a tax, the result was a cohesive population of Normans, Byzantines and the Arabs that stayed (Many left due to being ruled by an infidel), still today we can see the result of that, we had an unique style of architecture and art in the Middle Ages and even our language maintains a lot of Arabic influences, that's integration, taking the best from both worlds and fusing it together.

It's not allowing groups to stay in their own quarters with their own kin without regulation and defending them from any opposition with hate speech laws, that will only brew radicalization, and you'll have Shari'a zones in your cities and groups of natives ready even to resort to violence to cast out those who don't follow the laws of their state.

@Doomforge

If ever you should decide to migrate though, you'll do it providing documents and using a device of transportation instead of coming with fake documents to disguise yourself as a refugee.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.

ANTUDO

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted September 18, 2015 08:29 PM

The problem is not that they are muslims rather that they are DEVOUT muslims. Let's face it, religion is dying in Europe and it is the best thing that has happened here since the end of world warII. All in all europe has become a less secular place and thus became much more tolerant. Introducing a large population of devout muslims into a continent that simply DOES NOT CARE about their religion will upset them much more then us being Christians.
Our interpretaion of religious law is more or less up to standards of the 21th century while Islam wants it to return us to 7th century. Stonings, beheadings and various maimings practiced as punishments for breaking percieved religious laws and not to mention womens rights issues can not be left up to them to self regulate. Managing these tendencies on a large scale can only be achieved by an ironfisted approach and that will only hinder their assimilation.
If all these refugees arrived during a 20 year timespan then it would be managable but half of Syria will arrive here within 3 years and another 3 times that from other countries who simply want to live here.
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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted September 18, 2015 08:31 PM

@Neraus: Hence the use of the term Effective integration.

I agree, if religious people are going to live in a new country they will have to follow the law. No matter if that law forbids laws in whatever religious text they believe in, be it the bible or the Koran. Neither can they all be collected in ghettos to do as they please, since that won't allow actual integration. The children need to be taught in normal schools together with the native children, allowing them to easily integrate where it matters. The first generation, even the second won't be perfect. But the third and fourth? One won't even notice the difference between them and "natives" anymore. It can be likened to a investment, I guess.
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted September 18, 2015 08:51 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 20:55, 18 Sep 2015.

kiryu133 said:
I agree, if religious people are going to live in a new country they will have to follow the law.
That's racist in Sweden, remember?
kiryu133 said:
No matter if that law forbids laws in whatever religious text they believe in, be it the bible or the Koran.
Once again, this is currently going on in Sweden, where have you been the past years in terms of news I wonder?
kiryu133 said:
Neither can they all be collected in ghettos to do as they please, since that won't allow actual integration.
For starters that is what is going on as we speak. Why? Because integration is a two-sided matter. They must WANT to be integrated and the PEOPLE must want to integrate them. If either side refuses then it won't work.
kiryu133 said:
The children need to be taught in normal schools together with the native children, allowing them to easily integrate where it matters.
Once again, if the native population does not want their kids to be mixed with foreigners, or vice versa, then this fails. Not to mention that this will only integrate the children, what will happen to their adults?
kiryu133 said:
The first generation, even the second won't be perfect. But the third and fourth? One won't even notice the difference between them and "natives" anymore. It can be likened to a investment, I guess.

You have no idea if this is even an investment. Let alone if it would be, then it is no garantee that the money invested will be returned with interest, if even returned at all.
Many countries had youth unemployment problems, welfare issues and much more before this immigration madness escalted. If we could not solve the problems back then, how do you expect to do it now with huge debts, more people in need of jobs and with a house market that has blown through all reasonable price ranges?

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted September 18, 2015 09:09 PM

This isn't about the refugees for you, is it? You just want to hate on a marginalized group you fear groundlessly.

I pity you.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
posted September 18, 2015 09:40 PM

Is it hate to state facts?

Everything he said is pretty much true, the ghettization and isolation of immigrant groups brought to the Shari'a zones, hate speech laws prevent people from speaking out against certain passages of the Quran that are incompatible with our culture and the lack of money won't help them get a job and work.

Did you know that there were legal actions taken in Italy to punish the parents that wouldn't allow their kids to stay in the same class as gypsy kids?

In the current state of affairs everything is encouraged but integrating them, we're treating them like porcelain dolls that will be broken once you question their beliefs, why is it okay to question Christianity, to foster Anti-Clericalism and attack Christians while the same cannot be done about Muslims, and those who do are shunned by society?
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ANTUDO

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted September 18, 2015 09:58 PM

None of it is true. Criticizing the Quran is completely Legal (and in our schools encouraged together with the bible and any other religious texts though we do study them), stopping your children from mixing with children is pretty much impossible as a parent since it's illegal for any school or workplace to say no to someone based on ethnicity.

Ebon is just babbling racist Nonsense without any base in facts.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted September 18, 2015 10:07 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 22:10, 18 Sep 2015.

kiryu133 said:
This isn't about the refugees for you, is it? You just want to hate on a marginalized group you fear groundlessly.
I pity you.

Typical. Do you have any reasonable arguments at all?
I shall explain why this is not all about the refugees.

But let us start with the most critical aspect of the problem. Money.
Perhaps you think money is something that is growing on trees. That money just pop out from thin air. And do you know what? You are correct if you do think so. Because this is money made from loans.

Right now the EU and its citizens, are like I previously wrote, up to their necks in debts. Every day, more loans are made and the debts increases to new levels. Until you reach the point when people do not believe in the system anymore. And we are almost there and a lot of it is thanks to this refuge crisis.

It is a shame that wars a fought. It is a shame that people die. It is a shame they have to flee and abandon everything they have lived for. It is a shame to be forced to pay for a party that you did not even get an invitation to, and that is exactly what we are doing to the next generation!
The hilarious crux of the issue, is that the people and goverments taking on these insane loans in order to finance welfare, but also an extremely costly immigration, aren't even the ones who will be paying the debt back - it will be their children!
So while you think we are freeing these refuges from a disturbing fate, you are dooming your own offspring by shackling them in debt chains. Chains that might lead to them being forced to immigrate if things really take a turn for the worse.

"But hold the phone" you might say, "We are actually saving these people from, literally, hell itself!", "We are doing something good!".
Yes we are. For now.
The problem is not that we are helping those in need of help (while some countries actually do have this as a problem as they are bleeding economically), it is the way we do it on. We are spending immense resources on making refuges come to us. Their homes burn. Their families split apart. Some don't even make it here because of risky travel routes or by poor means.

We could be much more efficient if we helped the people on their home turf, and frankly, this is probably what you would want aswell if you would be forced to flee your country. You would rather have the helping hand come to you than you being forced into the void to reach it.
However, since we do not deal with the problem that causes these refugee waves, nothing will change. The "devil" on their hume turf will still be there and nothing we do in terms of taking the poor people to us will deter their supressing and evil actions.

While bringing them here might save a few, there are many more down there in need of help. But those who actually get here won't really have a bright future either. Why? I can think of 5 reasons.
1. They know next to nothing about our countries or culture unless they spent a great deal of time reading up about us first.
2. Due to the massive flows of refugees, many won't have a place to live at or it will be a place that do not meet their standards.
3. They aren't likely to know english, let alone the native language.
4. New laws, ethics and norms will not only make them confused, but probably also quite sad. They wanted to escape the war, not necessarely become "swedish" or "french".
5. Due to the following reasons above they aren't likely to be able to be integrated properly. This means it will be very rough to get a job without being tricked or exploited.

Now as for the natives in the country iself. They too will become affected by the problem. Once again, I shall list 5 reasons.
1. They know as much of the foreigners culture as much as the foreigners know about the natives culture. It will therefore be hard to interact with the newcomers.
2. Integration, costs money (please don't deny this). Money has to come from somewhere and if it does not come from increased taxes, then it will come from loans. Either of the two will be an additonal burden on the country and its people.
3. The natives might not want to be part of a integration project, but due to the democracy form, the leaders forces them to. This will only create a fissure and reduce the trust for the system.
4. As I mentioned earlier, due to the loans to finance both the welfare and the immigration, the coming generations will be bred into a hell of their own that they had no part in creating. Those who with a thought for the future will know this, and want to stop it.
5. It will create more competition for jobs and create more crime. The unemployment rates are high. Especially amongst the younger workers. With more people in need for work, it will make it even more difficult to become employed.
Companies do not grow on either trees or in the parliament building. Many are moving out to more cheap laboured countries. Some can't afford to hire a lot of workers due to the overall high employment fees. Some might not even be in need of workers due to the ever growing robot technology advancements. (For the love of all that is called logic, do not serve me the old socialistic saying "For every company that vanishes, another will sprout up to replace it". For this is (Bulls**t*)).
So what will the people that are unemplyoed do? Lift contributions from the goverment? That will only work for as long people can afford or want to pay for it. Once that stops, crime or traveling home will be the only options available.

So in the end this "solution" of ours, does not solve anything. It merely postpones the problems and procastinate the doom a little longer. It shall be said though, that no one has ever been able to outrun this clock. You can' outrun the constable.

As for your racist comment about me. Do you want to know the definition of racism before it was tampered with? Here it is:
Racism: A polticial view that stresses the value of the race for the society.
During this post I have not even once touched the subject of race. I have only spoken about cultures. Do not ever mix racism with culture.
I can also provide numerous links to back up my statements if you would so wish for me to do so. But then you might want to PM me as there will be many.
Ponder what I have said, not just you Kiryu, but everyone who thinks the current policy in the EU is good.

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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted September 18, 2015 10:10 PM

Neraus said:
the ghettization


Ghettization : The act of placing spaghetti over another meal to create a new meal. Example : Pizza-ghetti.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BRviETZCcAA_cGV.jpg:large

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 18, 2015 10:34 PM

I am confident that is what he meant.

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted September 18, 2015 10:41 PM

Ghettization is not approved by me

spaghetti on snowing bread... seriously?!


@Ebony

I ain't reading that. There's enough bigoted, falsified "facts" SD propaganda pressed into my face at every turn already and I don't want any more of it. I've read it all already.


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