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| Thread: Heroes 7, Mythology and Creatures | |
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted October 03, 2015 04:21 AM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 04 Oct 2015. |
Edited by Hermes at 04:26, 03 Oct 2015.
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Heroes 7, Mythology and Creatures
With release of Heroes VII, I have been thinking - what is that "Heroes" draw for me, and may be others.
I love the game, however some aspects I find questionable.
Most people argue about mechanics, or stability, or even cutscenes!
But what I want to talk about is creatures. More specifically, the philosophy behind factions and creatures design.
To me Heroes games were always about fielding mythical beasts, entities and constructs.
A successful faction in that regard is Academy. It's line up is represented by three houses of Silver Cities - House Anima summons Cabirs, Djinns and Arcane Eagles, House Materia provides Golems,Gargoyles and Titans and House Chimera - Rakshasas. The line up is varied and more importantly - has mythical staples, namely Djinns, Gargoyles, Golems and Titans. Mages on flying carpets help to convey that feeling too.
Now let's look at the Dungeon.
2 Dark elves in core.. And a golem in Elite. Now the easiest thing to spice up the line up would be to replace the Strider with Manticore. Cmon, everyone knows and loves the beasts, so why create something complely new and different?
Sylvan is up next. Yes Blade Dancer I'm looking at you. How about you saddle up that Pegasus up there? Seriously, why not? From all the options out there - you choose a simple foot soldier like that?
Haven.. How about a Griffin Handler instead of Justicars? It works like this. The creature behaves and looks like Justicars but has an ability to summon Griffins to either relocate to any other tile or to attack without retaliation. Easy.
There is a way of incorporating mythogy into haven without ‪adding shiny horses and such.
Stronghold is better then ever in that regard - almost every creature is notable.
But to me the dev team has that persistence - or strong belief - that Dungeon should revolve around dark elves(btw how can specialised troop like assassin be the core? And be fielded in hundreds..) and Haven should be strictly medievally themed. Yes I understand you don't want to repeat Heroes 6 mistakes in that regards, but there are other ways too.
The second part of this discussion is abilities. Or a lack thereof.
I will give you few examples, and you be the judge.
1. Troglodyte. It's teleport like movement ability is not noted anywhere, however the immunity to blind effect is. The catch is - the blindness is an effect granted by using a specific spell and only if you have a specific ability. Seriously.. What a waste of an ability slot.
2. Apprentices, Succubi and Fire Elementals. Different, right? Not in the ability department. They all share the same nova skill. And Succubi can't even Charm.
3. Medusa can't perfify, and neither can Basilisk, not really.
4. Ghosts and Bladedancers. Hey, such different creatures should have come telly different abilities. Guess what.. Also how come a Blade master can hit 360 degrees but a Hydra cannot?..
I can give more examples but I think these are enough. Creatures should feel unique and varied. More like Chess then Checkers. It does not help that almost every attack animation is a Slap. Pixie - slaps the enemy. Dryad - the same slap. Djinn - slap again. Sun deer - slap with its head. Lol.
I believe that to achieve success, Heroes should move from troops to mythological beasts, from slapping attacks to something more magical and unique, from similar abilities and effects to the game where each and every creature is truly memorable.
These things there - they can be changed! Tweaked. Added. And I believe to a great effect.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted October 03, 2015 11:40 AM |
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Well, sorry to disappoint you, but the mythic focus is gone... Now it is the reinvention of the myth in Ashan. Everything has to go through that filter to die and be born again... and if incorporated, it must be shaped into a certain mould (Naga priestess becoming Medusa, because Medusa doesn't really exist... which results in inability to petrify). Plus, they desire to make it purely high fantasy, hence, by pop culture standards it means elves...
In other words, the focus of the series is different. It is about the reinvention of the world into the Ashan high fantasy drama...
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted October 03, 2015 11:57 AM |
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I shall disagree with you, Sleeping Sun. In many of these cases it's not about reinvention of certain creatures but more about simple lack in variety of creatures' abilities. In future I genuinely hope that some of these suggestions are implemented into the game because as for now many units simply feel the same.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 03, 2015 12:50 PM |
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Is not only abilities, but also creatures.
We loose Manticore for Strider.
We loose Unicorn for glowing blue bambi.
We loose Phoenix just like that.
We loose Pegasus for Bladedancer.
We loose Medusa for "Coral Priestess".
We loose Black Dragon for Butterfly Dragon.
We loose Beholder for another dark elf.
There is more, shall I continue?
Sleeping Sun said:
In other words, the focus of the series is different. It is about the reinvention of the world into the Ashan high fantasy drama...
Too true ...
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 03, 2015 01:03 PM |
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 03, 2015 01:21 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 13:23, 03 Oct 2015.
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Galaad said:
Is not only abilities, but also creatures.
We loose Manticore for Strider.
We loose Unicorn for glowing blue bambi.
We loose Phoenix just like that.
We loose Pegasus for Bladedancer.
We loose Medusa for "Coral Priestess".
We loose Black Dragon for Butterfly Dragon.
We loose Beholder for another dark elf.
There is more, shall I continue?
THIS really shows that the developers lack a fundamental understanding of why people like the HoMM series. The creatures in the serie were always based on mythology and folklore, with the possible exception of maybe the Haven faction which has always been quite bland. Since H5, they tried to turn the series into a Warhammer clone and that just isn't very interesting.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted October 03, 2015 01:41 PM |
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its been said before and ill say it again:
the basis for these games is founded on the myths and legends of the last 50,000 yrs, plenty of lore to play with. @ubi: spend the money on the sandbox mechanics that foster our creativity, so that we can play through our own stories within these archetypes.
civilization & the like = history
master of magic, aow & the like = fantasy
master of orion & the like = sci-fi
heroes of might and magic = mythology
embrace your strengths!
i feel the series is falling back on fantasy cliches too much, instead of portraying higher philosophical concepts like it used to.
please devs: less tropes, more mythology and philosophy! 
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=40656&PID=1244944#focus
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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Cyrca
Bad-mannered
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 03, 2015 01:42 PM |
- penalty applied by Elvin on 03 Mar 2016. |
Edited by Elvin at 07:32, 03 Mar 2016.
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Oh nice, thus thread again. Where elves dont count as mythology creatures but the DnD ripoffs do lol.
Second accounts not allowed
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted October 03, 2015 03:00 PM |
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Cyrca said:
Oh nice, thus thread again. Where elves dont count as mythology creatures but the DnD ripoffs do lol.
One thing is to have elves as a mythological unit, while another is to have two towns that are focused around the elves. For some who do not understand that (like you) this is what eliminates other mythological units from at least two factions, indeed lol!
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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The_Green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted October 03, 2015 04:24 PM |
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I've already shared my thoughts on this in a similar thread.
But I will say this is just not a concern in Ubi's eyes. The only reason stronghold has such an awesome line up is because it's the only win-win scinerio, as the many myth units just happen to be the races of ashans stronghold. If beastmen wernt a thing we would have just have three more orcs in that line up.
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted October 03, 2015 05:08 PM |
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Cyrca, well the elves can be seen as mythological - however the way they are portrayed is more Tolkien-Esque and d&d then anything else. And it's quite boring - they are just humans with long ears and long life - not exactly a Manticore..
Sun Deer is fine for me, quite unique and mythological too. Arcane Eagle is pretty much a Phoenix so I'm quite happy there too. Well medusas are just nagas.. A bit better though.
I understand now how Ashan is restrictive. I like that setting and characters, but by making dragons the only source of magic and having a separate dragon for each magic school means that besides Wizards who rely on artefacts in the lore, there is no place for fallen dark knight or an elf paladin, etc. This and by making factions revolve around certain races devs feel obliged to include at least two of that race. But then in doesn't make sense. I mean, Dungeon is supposed to be a splinter sect of Sylvan elves - small in numbers. But here in a duel we see 200 assassins and 200 stalkers on dungeon side, and on the sylvan only hunters are in the core. So who supposed to be rare again?
Back to mythology, I feel they should really embrace that aspect of heroes and revolve the game around that and not races.
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romanov77
Known Hero
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posted October 03, 2015 07:24 PM |
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No need for Justicars to summon mythical creatures, they are mythical creatures themselves 
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Akul
Hired Hero
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posted October 03, 2015 07:47 PM |
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Edited by Akul at 19:49, 03 Oct 2015.
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Ashan isn't that restrictive: the Devs just decided to give the leading race (which are present even in earlier games) at least two units. If they reduced them to 1, it would be alright with Ashan's lore. However, even in old universe you had multi-units (Goblins in H3 Stronghold, elven archer and elven druid in H1 and H2, etc.)
Not to mention that many of replacements you guys gave are ridiculous: Beholders, Unicorns, etc. exists in Ashan, have been in earlier Ashan games and can be again. Unicorn is present in H7, though not as a unit, and could have been a unit as well. They were NOT removed from the towns because of Ashan's lore. Even mixing races would be fine because many factions live under another so even adding creatures from anotehr faction is free. Let the story take place after H5 and you can do literally anything.
The thing is, creature lines are changed all the time to make it fresher. Even pre-Ashan games did that and many a unit in old games outright changed factions (like when Orcs changed to Dungeon, Griffs from Dungeon to Haven to Preserve, Centaurs from Dungeon to Rampart to Stronghold, etc.). Some units are unique to Ashan, but they are minority and most of them are still based on real folklore (for example, the magical deers appear in countless folklores, even if they are not so popular to the masses).
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 03, 2015 07:55 PM |
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Hermes said:
there is no place for fallen dark knight or an elf paladin, etc. This and by making factions revolve around certain races devs feel obliged to include at least two of that race. But then in doesn't make sense. I mean, Dungeon is supposed to be a splinter sect of Sylvan elves - small in numbers. But here in a duel we see 200 assassins and 200 stalkers on dungeon side, and on the sylvan only hunters are in the core. So who supposed to be rare again?
Back to mythology, I feel they should really embrace that aspect of heroes and revolve the game around that and not races.
Excuse me, but you do realise that many Necropolis Might Heroes are just "fallen dark knights", right? ^^ Moander, Giovanni, to name a few. As for the Elf Paladin - we had an Orc Knight in H6. So yeah, I think it's possible to have an Elf Paladin.
Considering duel numbers - it's Heroes, you can build up 1000 Titans man.  As for "2 DE in Dungeon core, 1 SE in Sylvan core" - it does not reflect "how many Elves are out there".
Here I agree with Maurice actually. But you have a point really. Race-based units aside, Spiders in Necropolis while we can invite Mummies? Deers for Unicorn/Pegasus (although, it should be noted that "Deer" line-up won the vote)? And while I like Striders, they come at the expence of other, more "classic" and fan-favoured creatures (Manticore...)
Although on the abilities topic I agree with you.
P.S.: Gal, we have Beholders, but as War Machines. By the way, another way to add new stuff or some missing creatures to the total line-up, really sad only Dungeon got such treatment while others (SE, Orcs) got nothing new really (another Treant, big Elemental, mage-Orcs and one more Cyclops...)
Just imagine moving Cyclopes to WM and adding Trolls instead of them. Or vice-versa. Or just call those chained Cyclops a Troll.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 04, 2015 12:46 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
Here I agree with Maurice actually.
Not sure what you're referring to here; I didn't make a post in this topic yet  . I suspect you refer to a post of mine in another thread?
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 04, 2015 10:21 AM |
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Maurice said:
Not sure what you're referring to here; I didn't make a post in this topic yet . I suspect you refer to a post of mine in another thread?
Oh yeah, I was reffering to this post.
Quote:
"Again, no. Infernopolis from H4 was a mess and to be honest, I never really like the mix-match of Rampart in H3 (mainly due to the Dwarves - they should have a faction of their own). But then again, I think factions should be racially oriented - just not as heavily dominated as some of the factions have been in H5 and H6. Racial factions, but heavily filled up with mythological creatures and monsters that are somehow feeling naturally aligned with the faction. As an aside, Mages aren't a race but a role."
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