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| Thread: Mistakes of Heroes I to VII |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 03, 2015 08:47 PM |
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Edited by Nitramar at 20:50, 03 Oct 2015.
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Maurice said:
A better suggestion would be to first examine what the logic behind Logistics really is. [...]
In that respect, I see a few points that should logically be considered:
- army size;
- organisation skills;
- scouting around/ahead for ideal paths and available resources like food and water;
- The terrain crossed by the army while travelling;
- Movement speeds of each creature composing the army as a whole, since you can't move faster than your slowest unit or risk splitting the army apart
This is interesting. If logistics should be a secondary skill, it should be like this. I think there could even be a cap on army size that could be increased (slightly) by logistics (smaller armies might also make multiple hero builds more viable, something I've always wished for). Or (instead of a hard cap), there could simply be daily upkeep costs for moving creatures or chances of creatures dying on long journeys (increasing e.g. quadratically/exponentially depending on army size and distance from nearest city).
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
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posted October 03, 2015 11:23 PM |
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Mistakes of MMH 6, 7: They got made. 
Sorry, couldn't resist 
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Sanity through drugs. Order yours today!
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kusosaru
Hired Hero
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posted October 04, 2015 04:38 AM |
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Well the 7 tiers in h2/3 were kind of a wash and you could probably lump them into less tiers anyway:
The lowest being snowty t1s such as peasants, goblins,.... the only exception being skeletons due to sheer numbers.
Next being strong t1s such as pikeman/centaurs and t2 units (most of them such as zombies and dwarves were horrible anyway), maybe even most t3s
Then there's the t4/5 where units start packing some punch
T6 and T7 then make a tier of their own (exception being bone dragons that should be t6)
So basically if you cut the useless tier you get 4 tiers of units so H6 probably cut one too many tiers and H7 seems to be decent.
Now if only H6/7 weren't full of game breaking bugs :/
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted October 04, 2015 04:51 AM |
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Logistics in H4 was inserted in Pathfinding skill. That approach was the best one I considered in the whole lifespan of that skill. Of course, margins for improving it are everywhere. It could even affect Caravans, for example.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 04, 2015 07:02 AM |
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The biggest mistake IMO was taking the game into 3D.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 04, 2015 08:32 AM |
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Corribus said:
The biggest mistake IMO was taking the game into 3D.
2nd that. 3rd'd, 4th'd, 5th'd, to infiniti and beyond. the previous HoMM company learned that the hard way when HoMM4 fell on it's ass. Ubisoft screwed up by thinking they could do better, instead of understanding what the winning formula was. you can't start with snow, and think you can make a gem out of it. you have to start with the material that made gems in the first place.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted October 04, 2015 10:10 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 10:11, 04 Oct 2015.
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There is only so far they could have gone with 2D before the games would start to be labeled as dated I believe. Besides the 3D isn't bad its the poor design decisions and lack of polish that have been killing the series, of course that is just my opinion.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 04, 2015 12:31 PM |
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Biggest mistake? Not developing HoMM5 system further. It was fine and fun, just needed tweaking. Instead they went for something plain, boring and stupid.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted October 04, 2015 01:00 PM |
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Doomforge said:
Biggest mistake? Not developing HoMM5 system further. It was fine and fun, just needed tweaking. Instead they went for something plain, boring and stupid.
I'd go one step further - not fighting for Nival to keep on developing Heroes. This, at least in my opinion, was the greatest mistake Ubisoft has made while owning rights to "Might & Magic" and this decision, which had been made over 7 years ago, may determine the future of Heroes games as a whole.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 04, 2015 05:28 PM |
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Gryphs said:
There is only so far they could have gone with 2D before the games would start to be labeled as dated I believe.
Seems to be working fine with the Civilization series.
The conversion to 3D had more than only aesthetic ramifications. It DOES impact the gameplay in many ways, most of them for the negative.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 04, 2015 05:32 PM |
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But the majority of nuts who play whole day and night buy a game on how it looks. No 3D is a guaranteed marketing flop today.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 04, 2015 05:53 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 18:55, 04 Oct 2015.
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This thinking may be shared by Ubisoft developers, but - as per the title of the thread - it's a critical mistake in the development of the series. HoMM is a little card in Ubisoft's deck, just as strategy games have only a small share of the digital games market. Most people who buy strategy games place small emphasis on graphics. Functionality, compatibility with modern systems, and basic attractiveness of the interface are the requirements. You don't want the game to look like it was made in the early 90s (although, even then a game could be successful if it truly had great gameplay) but I don't see strategy enthusiasts shunning a good strategy game just because it doesn't have 3D - and the recent history of more successful strategy series that have stuck with the 2D approach are testament to this. Ultimately it's a failure of Ubisoft's marketing department by targeting development to the wrong audience. What we've had the last few iterations are games where an enormous chunk of the budget has probably been spent on 3D graphic and rendering artists, and a smaller chunk going to actual design of the game, AI programming, and so forth - you know, the things that actually do matter. And let's not even mention a capable and accessible map editor, which knowledgeable development and marketing teams would realize are an important aspect of the game's longevity. Compatibility between that an a 3D scheme is low and it doesn't take a game development genius to realize it.
The result are strategy games that look nominally OK but function poorly. Not likely to attract the average gamer, who doesn't care much for strategy games, and not likely to attract strategy gamers, who are looking for a much tighter strategy experience and realize that 3D is just an unnecessary distraction. Is it a wonder HoMM has enjoyed only modest success since Ubisoft purchased the rights to it?
(Even if we accept the idea that 3D was necessary to make HoMM more marketable to the average gamer - HoMM has never had the budget to truly astound from a visual standpoint. So compared to other modern games, it's not likely to attract gamers who are only interested in eye candy. So why bother with that at all? Develop the games for strategy gamers and be done with it. At the least you please the hard-core fans, which ensures future games will be successful with that target group.)
Meh. It's a mistake, pure and simple. I've argued it for over a decade, both in public and private forums. No dice.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted October 04, 2015 06:16 PM |
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@Corribus
If too little time being spent on the actual game development then the anwser is obvious.
Make multiple addons Kings Bounty style that only add extra content and polish. If H7 has 5 expansions instead of 2 (as is the tradition) then undoubtedly the gameplay would become more refined. Not to mention the expansion of the Ashan world and its factions(as if that could be any good ). The strategy players will buy it according to your logic since they want the strategical experience.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 04, 2015 06:16 PM |
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Not that I disagree but marketing vs little fan base, we know who wins. However, what annoys me the most in the so commonly used 3D is the reduced sight and global view, too many irregular eye candies making confuse what we focus on. But seeing THIS, I start to think there could be a way for a clean 3D, granted they have any motivation to change.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 04, 2015 07:03 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 19:04, 04 Oct 2015.
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I'm not saying 3D can't work, just that it's an unnecessary drain on resources for not much gain. I don't really consider the example you showed as true 3D*, at least not in the sense that we saw in H5 onward. Civ 5 has a 3Dishness to it as well, in that there is topography and the ability to zoom in and out. But it's not so much of a distraction there because the world still feels big. There's still a board game feel to it - you can even toggle to a completely abstract 2D view of the "gameboard". Contrast this to H5, where it almost felt like a first person shooter at times. In that case the 3D made the game almost claustrophobic.
I guess my point is that there are a number of strategy series that maintain a 2D approach (or near enough) and are still successful. Civilization, Age of Wonders, Anno series, etc., are all examples. Hell, we could even point to the recent resurgence of isometric RPGs (Pillars of Eternity, Divinity, Bastion) as evidence that 2D games can still enjoy considerable success. So, I don't think this argument that a game has to be full on immersive 3D to sell well in the modern age holds water at all.
*And just based on the look of it, I think that would be a fine compromise aesthetic for a HoMM game.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted October 04, 2015 08:57 PM |
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You really could have stated that originally because in all that you said I completely agree with you.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2015 12:09 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
About primary skills, certainly better to move it into primary skills rather than having to learn one same skill over and over and over.
About magic resistance, I meant 30 or more knowledge stat. Heck, even at 20 you don't feel such need. Besides, how else do you want to play defensive against spellcasting?
AI, maybe. Don't know yet, but I just feel people are used at the current AI and improving it from H3 standards could prove a bit too much. Let us just say that people count on AI's predictability.
Platforms - this is just a thought for future devs to think of. There may just lie some value in it.
As for factions, I still hear some people complaining the current factions add little diversity between former and newer games. Besides, I am not saying to remove units, just to move them into different factions and make something new, yet still effective.
Sorry, but I disagree with you, too. Some creatures are just meant to be where they are (angels in heaven, devils in inferno, skeletons in necropolis, blackies in dungeon, and titans in... well, wherever the hell they are). And these are just champion creatures, I'm sure that other, lower tier creatures (griffins, dread knights, minotaurs, efreeti, etc) deserve to be associated with those factions, too.
So yeah, I'd hate to have minotaurs appearing in inferno, or blackies at sylvan, etc. That just doesn't seem right.
That's all I wanted to say 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2015 12:28 PM |
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@ Corribus
Imo, i's not a question of 3d versus 2d, but a question of whether you bend game mechanics to fit your idea of 3d or whether you bent 3d to fit your idea of game mechanics - or simply whether you let graphics rule over the game or vice versa.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted October 05, 2015 12:46 PM |
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Edited by EnergyZ at 12:50, 05 Oct 2015.
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I don't want to oppose the masses, but I just think people don't see the complete picture. I mean that they may have gotten used to certain things they don't want large changes, even if such a thing is basically a mistake.
Just saying that if some things were turned around to improve gameplay people would still scoff. Of course, I am not saying the current dev/publish team's changes are for the better. It is just these small "holes" that have remained unfixed.
For example, these factions remain mostly unchanged. I know and I understand that certain creatures *should* belong to some factions (after all, angels can't fit in Necropolis). But this produces monotony and when new creatures enter the line-up, they are mostly met with huge negative feedback. I still understand things like that deer occupying the slot for unicorn, or assassin being instead of lurker. But it is not good if the factions have the same line-ups over and over. After all, we "don't want to be portrayed as conservative", do we?
That is why I propose to at least try to bring some units here and there, so there are no iconic creatures being wasted, yet the idea of a line-up exists there. Basically, just move certain creatures, edit a bit if needed, so it can fit in, rather than pasting over same line-ups.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 05, 2015 12:56 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
But it is not good if the factions have the same line-ups over and over.
I actually think everybody agrees here. As I've always said, as long as the spirit is there you can do whatever you want with the factions. Actually please do so. Just keep the min 1 max 3 staples per faction into the game (some can even move from a faction to another like in the old games as Hermes suggested elsewhere) and change the rest. Also, new assets for a new game could help here. And please, can we have things more tasteful, like mythology inspired? Strider and Wooden Snake what the hell really.
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