|
| Thread: creature balance cost/quantity | |
|
FiReFTW
Tavern Dweller
|
posted October 17, 2015 10:18 AM |
|
|
creature balance cost/quantity
I was just wondering, how is the balance between the creatures themselves?
lets take Haven for example, and lets say you can spend 15.000 gold on each and every unit in their lineup ( this is just an example, so ignore the fact that perhaps with 1000 more gold you could get 1 more unit that would make a big difference in higher tier units ).
So you buy
x amount of crossbowmen for 15.000 gold
x amount of dire wolf for 15.000 gold
.
.
x amount of cavalires for 15.000 gold
x amount of seraphs for 15.000 gold
Now if each of those units would go 1 vs 1 against each other, how would it look? Would some units have a huge advantage or would it be fairly equal?
|
|
Kayna
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted October 17, 2015 03:58 PM |
|
|
|
The champions will beat the elites, the elites will beat the cores. You forget the might and defense stats on each.
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted October 17, 2015 04:12 PM |
|
|
Kayna I am no entirely sure. Did you test it? Sprite with no retaliation could beat some elite creature.
To OP, how do we test battle vs shooters?
|
|
Kayna
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted October 17, 2015 05:24 PM |
|
Edited by Kayna at 17:25, 17 Oct 2015.
|
Sprites : 5 attack 1 defense
Emerald dragons : 18 attack 26 defence.
Meaning Sprites will attack first with -52.5 % damage, then the emerald dragons will attack with 85 % increased damage. Heck, try it even with a backstab in favor of the sprites. You need perfect offense and or defense for little core units to have a fighting chance against champions and or elites. Although perhaps comparing with elites would be better because champions also cost extra ressources.
I think the game assumes that you will lose your core units along the way, and good players usually prevents that from happening, that's why some people manage to get an impressive stack of core units.
Personally, I think that undead with necromancy and perfect offense or defense is a nasty little combo. Id do necromancy, perfect offense and the teleport spell.
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted October 17, 2015 05:35 PM |
|
Edited by natalka at 17:47, 17 Oct 2015.
|
I will go test 241 Sprite v 34 Dancer
Sprites definitely win 
They would kill 2 emeralds too if they didn`t have regeneration. So it seems your calculations are not right.
|
|
Kayna
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted October 17, 2015 06:00 PM |
|
Edited by Kayna at 18:07, 17 Oct 2015.
|
Well, maybe I'm wrong. I didn't calculate anything before talking. But then again, you're not doing a perfect comparison either. If you wanna prove what you're saying without a doubt, you should test it with all core versus all elites. You can't just talk about the only core creature "without retaliations". Nor can you say things like "if they didn't have regeneration".
No, testing with all core versus all elites would be too long, but try to take a few samples other than sprites lol. No retaliation creatures are pretty much like shooters ; it's like you're comparing shooters vs melee's. Also one important detail is the core's low hp, meaning that you always lose more core creatures as you creep the map than you do elites and champs.
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted October 17, 2015 07:40 PM |
|
Edited by natalka at 19:53, 17 Oct 2015.
|
I don`t want to prove anything I said in the first post that you can`t be so sure about core to elite to champ comparison when there are creatures with no retaliation and so on.
Tested 83 Sandstone golmes v 23 Djinn Channeler -> golems win
tested 230 Obsidian Gargoyles also win for the cores
also they kill 8 Rakshasa
I think their price/performance ratio is better. Don`t want to test more.
to OP, what was your original idea, maybe you had something in mind.
|
|
Kayna
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted October 17, 2015 07:46 PM |
|
|
natalka said:
Tested 83 Sandstone golmes v 23 Djinn Channeler -> golems win
That's a better comparison, the golem's pointless construct ability versus the pointless djinn mana drain. Win by how many?
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted October 17, 2015 07:53 PM |
|
Edited by natalka at 19:57, 17 Oct 2015.
|
both scenario it was a crushing win gargoyles were left with 170 vs the raksha and 210 vs djinn
|
|
PROJ
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 17, 2015 08:02 PM |
|
|
|
The elites are less cost efficient, but more weekly growth efficient. Honestly I'm fine with that kind of balance. Also the cores being more in line with strength with the higher tiers makes the game have more depth, so it's not like homm 3 wyverns + angels + fodder
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted October 17, 2015 08:09 PM |
|
|
|
kayna, bear in mind that while you lose cores during creep you start with 3 heroes first week = 90+ cores and buy additonal heroes (1 minimum) each week after. Without those extra cores from hroes on my map the cores become 250-400 while elite 54-126
|
|
Kayna
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted October 17, 2015 08:24 PM |
|
|
|
well, with that kind of result, indeed, there is a problem.
|
|
FiReFTW
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted October 18, 2015 01:46 AM |
|
|
natalka said:
to OP, what was your original idea, maybe you had something in mind.
Im trying to mod my own little version of MMH7.
I find the original HMM7 too specific, boring and predictable in terms of armies, so I want to make them more varied.
In original HMM7 with a fully upgraded town you can pretty much buy the whole creature line up with ur weekly budget, so my plan is to double the creature cost and double their growth, so you actually make choices and armies are different based on what you prefer, you can make an army full of core creatures, or perhaps an army of elite creatures etc...
In any case, no more every faction has their full lineup in the army making it boring... rather you can choose with ur weekly budget to buy 3 units of that, or 3 different units, or simply buy less of each and perhaps buy 5 or even perhaps the whole lineup if you also have some other resources that add to ur weekly budget, but no more NEED to buy the whole lineup simply because ur budget won't allow you to do that, making you have more chouces in what kind of army you shape.
But my worry is that balance will be bad so thats a problem, for example lets say core creature 1 and champion creature 1, if you can buy example 1000 core creature 1 and 10 champion creature with ur weekly budget, and one of those creatures lost 30% of their units if they fight 1vs1, then its a problem.. because then you also will pick the stronger craature hurting the variability and making it all boring again.. so each creature needs to be somewhat balanced to offer some reasoning for puchracing it, none of them having any clear advantagas.
|
|
malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
|
|
posted October 18, 2015 06:25 PM |
|
Edited by malax83 at 10:09, 19 Oct 2015.
|
I understand you got your own idea but there s already diversity with Heroes 3. Someone in this forum do ask me why there s tiers creatures... idk the reason but i ve my opinion on the question and his consequence. I m not sure if you can understand it but if you re a fan of heroes 3, there s no simple answer to your problem.
In H3, centaur or pikemen can do well against angel (maybe not killing them) and have no chance against behemot.
Something like 18 pikemen (not axactly) will be punished by the behemot cause their ability but 30 pikemen can do some serious damage to one angel. Of course there s no ability to compare with H7. You can also inspire yourself from the stats of Heroes 3. Why ? Cause it s the better in term of balance.
The tier system killed the none linearity of this ratio : migth / gold cost.
From each release of this series, there s something built in H3 which is forgotten.
|
|
PROJ
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 18, 2015 06:47 PM |
|
|
|
h3 has very little combat depth though. You end up with one or two clearly superior power stacks and a bunch of fodder (how many games end up as who has more wyverns/angels than the other?) Having more parity between the tiers has created better gameplay since homm 5
|
|
malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
|
|
posted October 18, 2015 06:51 PM |
|
Edited by malax83 at 11:17, 19 Oct 2015.
|
PROJ said:
h3 has very little combat depth though. You end up with one or two clearly superior power stacks and a bunch of fodder (how many games end up as who has more wyverns/angels than the other?) Having more parity between the tiers has created better gameplay since homm 5
since H5 ?
So for my example, i will pick a clever example for understanding.
Figth number 1 : 30 pikemen against 1 Bone Dragon (...)
Result : Bone Dragon lives with few hit points (30 hp)
The ratio is near 1+30/150 = 1.2, in terms of migth, Bone dragon are efficiency like pikemen. A little much better.
Figth number 2 : 25 pikemen against 1 Behemot
Result : Behemot lives with 105 hit points
The ratio is 1+105/160 = 1.65
Figth number 3 : about 40 pikemen against 1 behemot
Result : Behemot lives with few hit points (30 hp)
The ratio of killing a behemot, compare to a Bone Dragon is equal to : 40 pikemen * 60 gold / 1500 = 2400 / 1500 = 1.6
So we can resume in a word, Behemot are 60% more efficient than Bone Dragon. Of course, the core unit don t kill the Bone Dragon, but the ratio is near to 1. Contrary to behemot.
Figth number 4 : The ratio between 1 angel and 50 pikemen is near to 1.
Result : 50 * 60 / 3000 = 1
Behemot is also 60% more efficient than angel.
Obviously, NWC did a great job cause in the mind of players, angel is better than every each other creatures, which is true.. But the fact is not..
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted October 19, 2015 11:34 AM |
|
|
|
Did your tests and examples also consider who strikes first? If Pikemen strike first, they do so with a larger overall number (and therefore, more damage) than when the Behemoth or Bone Dragon attacks first, since they will kill a number of them.
|
|
malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
|
|
posted October 19, 2015 01:13 PM |
|
|
Maurice said:
Did your tests and examples also consider who strikes first? If Pikemen strike first, they do so with a larger overall number (and therefore, more damage) than when the Behemoth or Bone Dragon attacks first, since they will kill a number of them.
No, imo they have compared overall army against test creatures as pikemen and demons. their value is a bit above an average creature.
Then they have to compare the same level between them, for example, devils and angels can figth themselves infinitly.
|
|
FiReFTW
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted October 20, 2015 02:48 PM |
|
|
If we come back on topic for a bit and talk about heroes 7 only.
So how exactly is the balance of creature tiers cost wise?
Is it somewhat fine or is it all over the place? Because if its all over then my plan fails because there will be a huge imbalance.
|
|
|
|
