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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted November 07, 2015 11:50 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 09 Nov 2015. |
Edited by Pawek_13 at 20:50, 09 Nov 2015.
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Map exploration
I was thinking about what was said about the Logistics (or Exploration, as it is now called) skill in one of the streams, especially that it doesn't grant your hero that much of a movement bonus as it used and I started thinking about the map exploration in Heroes VII in general. This is a list of a few conclusions I've made.
Let's start of with movement bonuses and penalties given by different types of terrain. They're so huge that they're outrageous. As far as I remember roads give 40% bonus to movement speed and all other types of terrain give 40% penalty to movement speed (if I'm wrong, correct me.) This not only leads to strange situations, where pathfinding algorithm chooses a curvy road instead of a straight one just because of the road bonus. The worst thing is that it completely ruins the exploration spirit of Heroes games. I'm a completionist type and I love to wipe my maps clean of all the resources and visit all the buildings that are on map. The problem is that it takes so much time to do that because of such huge movement penalties. Don't get me wrong, they are a necesity, if we want to diversify the gameplay. However, they can't be so big (maybe except for deserts and snowy grounds) and secondly, they need to be different across various terrain types. I don't want to walk as slowly across undergrond, which consists of hard rocks, as I walk across sandy desert, where each step is a challenge. Additionally, with such a huge bonus for paths the game tries to say "don't explore, it is too tedious, stay on the main roads, you'll move on them as fast as a cheetah."
Next issue is a microscopic number of movement points avaialable per day. In theory, this is supposed to add additional strategic layer to every decision regarding our heroes' destination. In fact, this only slowens down the pacing of the game, as your enemy heroes move as sluggishly as you do, so you won't face them anytime sooner than you would while playing previous Heroes iterations. To make things worse, less movement per day means more waiting screens that need to pass in order to get to the destitation and players definitely love waiting screens, don't they?
Then we have over-reliance on stat boosting buildings. Many of them not only give the hero boost to units' stats, but also give him/her a handful of movement points, which means that if you want to go further with map exploration and not only stand still, making them a place that has to be visited whenever possible. I don't want to be picky but I got a strange feeling that game devs wanted to simply annoy players by making effects from these buildings active for 3 battles, not just one, meaning players can't oneruse their movement-boosting abilities, so that the can just a little bit more until they reach their destination. Just great. 
Finally, lets move to Logistics Exploration. I know, this skill is very often overused by players, therefore I understand nerfing it. However, while the skill itself is now pretty useless, the same thing can't be said about the abilities. In fact, I believe that in Heroes VII abilities of Exploration may be, well, ... overpowered. As pointed before, every single movemet point matters, therefore investment in "Snatch" is highly reasonable, as a player would spare thanks to it tons of movement points! Additionally, it's a Novice ability, therefore you won't have to spend to much Skill Points to get and you'll get a huge advantage over enemy players! Next, we have Pathfinding. Because most of the terrains have a huge movement penalty, then picking this ability, which in previous games was a decent choice, but it's effect wasn't felt to such a great extent. Now, since moving on non-roads is in most cases an ardous chore, choosing "Pathfinding" makes a lot more sense than it used to before. Add to that non-random skill system and you get hordes of players with these two abilities, especially since a vast majority of classes has an access to Exploration! Is that balanced? I don't think so...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 09, 2015 07:53 PM |
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In light of everything, it was a huge mistake to reduce movement so much. For the life of me, I still cannot see a good side to it.
Pathfinding penalties are even more severe. Swamp and snow have always been a plain to journey through but this is just nuts. Road bonus is just as crazy.
Movement boosters have become too essential, which I do not like either. And they even give +6 movement, which is 27% of your total movement points! However, I am glad that they only work for 3 battles. For one, it does not support mule heroes and favours expansion. Secondly, it cannot be easily bypassed. Back in H5, your main hero had zero chance to hold on to his adv. map bonuses because he would be ambushed by at least one secondary hero, right before the enemy main hit him. Now you cannot be denied your bonuses as easily.
Snatch is easily one of the most overpowered abilities of H7. If you can pick up 5 items in one day, that's 23% more movement for you. By comparison, first level of exploration gives you less than 5% movement. In a game where movement is so damn limited, an ability that gives you unlimited free pickups is insanely good.
You have pretty much nailed the issues of short movement: Makes snatch and pathfinding too powerful, makes mapmakers over-reliant on movement boosters and kills the spirit of exploration in maps with rough terrain. Actually, even in normal terrain.
What I would like to see is an increase in regular movement points, a decrease in adv. map location movement boost, an increase in exploration movement points, a reduction in road bonuses and a reduction in rough terrain penalties. Something to take away a bit the focus from exploration abilities and keep the game enjoyable for classes who do not have access to it. And even then, classes who lack access to exploration are bound to be problematic.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted November 09, 2015 10:24 PM |
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5 pickups is equal 10 points which is nearly 50 % of movment points lol.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 09, 2015 10:56 PM |
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Elvin said:
If you can pick up 5 items in one day, that's 23% more movement for you.
It's not just picking up items; it's any interaction with adventure map objects. This includes - but is not limited to - capturing mines, attacking enemy stacks, reaching adventure map objects like markets and creature dwellings and triggering portals. Snatch will make all of these free of movement cost.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 09, 2015 11:48 PM |
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natalka said:
5 pickups is equal 10 points which is nearly 50 % of movment points lol.
I had forgotten.. As things are, either they should fix the aforementioned issues to reduce the impact of snatch(which they should anyway), nerf snatch to only work on pickups or exchange snatch with scouting. Also two movement points to pick up things is terrible, even more so with the hero's limited movement.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted November 10, 2015 06:44 AM |
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Edited by natalka at 07:21, 10 Nov 2015.
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snatch should be higher tier. Totally agree.
Nobody mentioned Rover. I just tested and now it only doubles stables movement and doesn`t double flag/shrine movement. WTF we wanted the reverse I think.
Every map should have stables and mapmakers can control movement bonus from flags more easily, moreover they now can`t be abused. Stables gives +10 movement for whole week..come on
I remember twich stream..one of developers said.. we wanted to make exploration skill not so powerful and not a no-brainer skill. EXCUSE me, but now if you leave it like that everybody will rush for rover to get 35 extra movement per week.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 24, 2015 02:26 AM |
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I wonder, was there some progress on that part in the patches?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 24, 2015 08:41 AM |
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I believe picking up piles was reduced to 1 movement.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted December 24, 2015 09:29 AM |
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Elvin said:
I believe picking up piles was reduced to 1 movement.
Yes but Rover still doubles stables bonus while it doesn`t double refresh bonus from rally flags/blind maidens.
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