Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Some thoughts and questions for the NWC Forge units power
Thread: Some thoughts and questions for the NWC Forge units power
pumma
pumma


Hired Hero
posted November 13, 2015 07:54 PM

Some thoughts and questions for the NWC Forge units power

Disclaimer:
This thread is not about whether Heavenly Forge has place in Heroes 3 or not. So, please, do not turn it to quarrel about this.

Lately I was reading everything I was able to find about The Forge and I was trying to understand the NWC's idea for the power of the Forge units but I was a little bit confused. Some of the information says that even level 6 creature will cost gold and rare magical resources which could means that it is approximately as powerful as level 7 creatures from the other towns but other piece of information says that attributes of the Grunts for example were as strong but no greater than other first level units which for me contradicts to the first piece of information. Most probably all this information is unofficial but nevertheless is quite confusing. For me the Forge units should do at least more damage than the creatures of the same level from the other towns. But I think that it will make perfect sense if also their health, attack and defense are higher. Also MM7 info says that a mace or morning star makes a basic damage of 7 to 13, a blaster - 11 to 23 and blaster rifle - 17 to 37. The Goblin has mace and makes 1 - 2 damage which means that Grunt damage will be 2-4 (according to MM7 information) and the Foot soldier damage will be 2(3)-5 which is the damage made from a second level unit.
So what do you think? Is Forge units should be as powerful as the units of the same level from the other castles, or they should make only higher damage, or level 1 unit will be powerful as level 2 creatures from the other castles etc. till level 7 Forge unit has the power of level 8 unit for the other castles (something like the fairy dragons but with more damage dealt)? Or what do you think was the idea of NWC about this?
I found the names of two Forge dwellings (Slaughterhouse and Runway) and I wondered thus anybody knows something about the names of the other five dwellings except the general Generator?
Any information or thoughts on the subject matter will be helpful except the usual phrase 'Forge does not fit Heroes 3'.  

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted November 13, 2015 07:59 PM
Edited by Dj at 20:00, 13 Nov 2015.

the devs themselves stated that the forge units would be stronger than other units. it would make sense, but gameplay wise they would be OP and unbalanced, thus they would have raised the price of their recruitment (and dwelling) to balance it. they said it.
but they also said that the forge city would be a campaign-only content.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Sceleton
Sceleton

Tavern Dweller
posted November 17, 2015 11:34 AM

I am forced to reply to 1 post before doing one myself but I dont seem to find any topic I have knowledge into so this is my reply!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted November 17, 2015 01:47 PM

Conflux units stats do not fit their levels since they're upgrades of very weak level 4 units... so they changed the growth rate. The biggest imbalance of Conlux units are Sprites and Phoenixes, so I doubt it'd be a major balancing upset.

In HoMM2 e.g. Warlocks have way more powerful units than Knights.. so the game doesn't require units of the same level to be balanced necessarily.

Apart from that, in MM7 attack and defense translates to prob. to hit and dodge an attack (together with creature level), that's not how it works in HoMM, where attack as well as damage translates into damage, so I wouldn't use MM7 to base off on.

In HoMM, attack enhances damage, forge is technological advanced, so more enhanced damage would make sense. Base damage for a creature depends on the creature, while for someone carrying a weapon, it depends on the weapon. So e.g. a Naga Tank could have the same damage and hp as a Naga (huge for level 6), with increased Att/Def points. It will make them more powerful than other level 6 units, but will it make them better or even able to compare to level 7 units? I don't believe it would, level 7 units are way more powerful than level 6 units and Nagas are slow.., a tank is typically slow as well.

In principle in HoMM, we could have only 3 unit levels, level 1-3, level 4-6 and level 7. That's where I see the big differences appearing, and I don't see why Forge shouldn't follow that rule. Of course there can be exception like there already is (Dragon Flies to take out Sharpshooters to provide an example).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
pumma
pumma


Hired Hero
posted November 18, 2015 04:16 AM

Dj said:
the devs themselves stated that the forge units would be stronger than other units. it would make sense, but gameplay wise they would be OP and unbalanced, thus they would have raised the price of their recruitment (and dwelling) to balance it. they said it.
but they also said that the forge city would be a campaign-only content.


Thanks for the reply. That's the first step but I'm thinking of something more or less uncanonical as second step so to make this town playable and not only a campaign town. As it is completely different as philosophy from the other towns, it will make sense for me if citadel and castle do not increase the population and that you will need fort, oil pump and a building to produce electricity so to be able to build any creature dwelling. And upgrade of one of the last two buildings could increase the population but maximum to 50%. The idea is that you will have only 1 level 7 unit per week. The Grail could make it up to two. All above is in case the creatures are stronger in comparison to the same level creatures from the other towns.

OhforfSake said:
Conflux units stats do not fit their levels since they're upgrades of very weak level 4 units... so they changed the growth rate. The biggest imbalance of Conlux units are Sprites and Phoenixes, so I doubt it'd be a major balancing upset.

In HoMM2 e.g. Warlocks have way more powerful units than Knights.. so the game doesn't require units of the same level to be balanced necessarily.

Apart from that, in MM7 attack and defense translates to prob. to hit and dodge an attack (together with creature level), that's not how it works in HoMM, where attack as well as damage translates into damage, so I wouldn't use MM7 to base off on.

In HoMM, attack enhances damage, forge is technological advanced, so more enhanced damage would make sense. Base damage for a creature depends on the creature, while for someone carrying a weapon, it depends on the weapon. So e.g. a Naga Tank could have the same damage and hp as a Naga (huge for level 6), with increased Att/Def points. It will make them more powerful than other level 6 units, but will it make them better or even able to compare to level 7 units? I don't believe it would, level 7 units are way more powerful than level 6 units and Nagas are slow.., a tank is typically slow as well.

In principle in HoMM, we could have only 3 unit levels, level 1-3, level 4-6 and level 7. That's where I see the big differences appearing, and I don't see why Forge shouldn't follow that rule. Of course there can be exception like there already is (Dragon Flies to take out Sharpshooters to provide an example).


Thank you for the comment. Conflux is more or less another campaign town. It have some specifics due to the idea behind it. If you look closely to the other towns, you will see that stats of the creatures from one and the same level vary a lot. Also the population. For example the usual population for level 4 creatures is 4 per week, bur nevertheless the Pegasus population is 5 per week. So differences are quite normal and welcome or you will end up with one and the same town only with different animations.  

MM7 is somehow more valuable source of information for HMM3 than HMM2 in matter to the creatures. The reason is that MM7 and HMM3 happen in Erathia and HMM2 in Enroth. Of course there are some particularities because of the fact that MM7 is RPG and HMM3 is Strategy. Also I gave the basic damage of a mace and a blaster which does not depend from attack, defense or any of the 7 core hero's stats in MM7. This give us some insight of the difference between this two weapons. A goblin is a goblin so the only difference is the weapon if we do not count any possible cybernetic improvements. And the idea of the Forge is to make some units more powerful. So my original intent was to understand how people imagine this increase of power. In which directions and how much. After all the two replies provide me with that sort of information.

And if I may point, the upgrades of all level 7 units are significantly more powerful than the Naga but some of the non upgraded units are slightly more powerful than the Naga but if you improve the Naga (Naga tank), it could be more powerful than the most non upgraded level 7 units.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 18, 2015 05:21 AM

all of my Forge creature's stats are the highest per level, but they also cost more(both more gold and more resources for the level 6up - 8), and produce less per week. i didn't consider how slow a naga tank should be, let alone a juggernaut or dreadnaught. i'll have to slow them down as well(maybe find the slowest level 7 and 8 units, and make them slower than those, since the juggernauts and dreadnaughts are powerhouses. the naga tank, less so, so i'll only clip her speed a bit).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Haregar
Haregar


Famous Hero
of destruction
posted November 23, 2015 12:05 PM

Dj said:
the devs themselves stated that the forge units would be stronger than other units. it would make sense, but gameplay wise they would be OP and unbalanced, thus they would have raised the price of their recruitment (and dwelling) to balance it. they said it.
but they also said that the forge city would be a campaign-only content.

I heard the devs described Forge units as the strongest in the whole game (i.e. Forge's 7th lvl was planned to be stronger than the highest level creature in Castle, so that's something).

To prevent inbalance, the price and amount of units granted per week would be specific. Price was planned to be higher and amount of units' income lesser. Seems fine for me: you pay more for less number, but you get very strong creatures anyway in return.

Same goes with dwellings. As you said, their cost was also planned to be higher to make Forge more or less equal with other factions in terms of power and availability to more powerful features. It'd be good, especially if we look at amount of planned shooting units.

I also read years ago about general character for NWC's Forge. As you know, Castle is rather the easiest town to play. It's affiliation is "good". Forge was to be even easier town and it's affiliation was to be "evil". We would have two easy-to-play towns representing two sides of a coin.

I haven't heard about Forge as "campaign-only content" though. Forge was planned to have important role in the main Armageddon's Blade campaign, but also to be fully new town balanced enough to be used in normal (both in-game and custom) maps.
Next idea was to make Forge optional. I think it'd work like setting on or off appearance of Forge town and related creatures, objects on custom maps.
After that famous 5% fans got mad when they heard about the idea of Forge's implementation, Forge was finally [unfortunatelly] scrapped.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted November 23, 2015 03:05 PM

Stories about Castle being easy and powerful are nice bullpoop, its one of the weakest towns actually

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Haregar
Haregar


Famous Hero
of destruction
posted November 24, 2015 09:49 AM

It depends. Notice that all towns in Heroes of Might&Magic 3 are pretty well balanced. Each town has pros and cons, as well as each town has different main style of playing. Castle was mentioned as the strongest town mostly because of Angels/Archangels (they are still strong, but before "Armageddon's Blade" and "Shadow of Death" were released, Archangels were too strong, making the game kinda unbalanced).

Even after expansions Castle is still in my oppinion the strongest town. Why? Because:
- it has good units (even if they don't have much special abilities, compared to several other towns, they are easy to play for a newbie)
- it's easy to develop whole town without (comparatively to other towns) much and complicated planning

Basically, if somebody is new to the game then Castle is perfect to pick it for first town. It's basically easy to play and strong enough for new players. It's not a type of "easy to play, hard to master" though, but it's also not like Conflux being average to play for new players, while more experienced ones can find Conflux as too powerful, especially if you develop right hero in right way and build Grail building ("The Aurora Borealis").

I tried to not be biased with my oppinions about Castle, because it's one of my favourite towns.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted November 24, 2015 12:09 PM

okay, but thats simply not true. Play some multiplayer man lol

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Haregar
Haregar


Famous Hero
of destruction
posted November 25, 2015 05:14 PM

Believe me, I played some multiplayer games in this game. What I wrote is true. My analysis was dedicated for basics of singleplayer mode and based on pure mechanics.

In multiplayer on balanced maps (not those in which one player has way less resources or chances to develop than the opposite one) it depends on skill, not on town. As I said, HoMM 3 with addons has pretty well balanced towns, so when you are playing against humans, then you must rely mostly on your skill (once again, if the map is balanced). In example, Conflux in hands of inexperienced player can be weak, but in hands of somebody who knows the mechanics and knows how to play certain town to gain the best effect, Conflux can be a deadly weapon.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted November 25, 2015 06:30 PM

pumma said:
if you improve the Naga (Naga tank), it could be more powerful than the most non upgraded level 7 units.


Would it still be a Naga (Queen) though? I don't recall ever making any tests comparing upgraded lvl 6 units to non-upgraded lvl 7 units, but merely glancing over the stats, I see unupgraded lvl 7's as having better damage, health and speed.. like mentioned with the Goblin example.. unless you put something along the lines of a cannon on the Naga (why would we need the Naga then?), I don't see a tremendous increase in base damage or for that matter health or speed with the same type of argument. I imagine an increase in ATT/DEF, maybe to something that looks more like a Dread Knight or a bit higher.. the speed, base damage and health would still be too low for it to be as good as unupgraded lvl 7 units.

Then again, this is all guess work.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread »
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0478 seconds