|
|
Baronus
Legendary Hero
|
posted July 15, 2016 02:55 PM |
|
|
|
High priestes was corrupted. Thievery. Builded big residences. Bad peoples. Gang of bandits. It was the reason they murdered Jesus.
|
|
frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 03:33 PM |
|
|
Homer171 said:
Membering back, I did not have great expectations about it either, I was rather annoyed by the idea of going to church actually. I want to advice you to not give up on these first experiences. As an protestant I would suggest you try one of those churches even tough aim not sure are any of those in your area. Pentecostal, Metodist and Babtist churches are few examples.
For now, only one thing that I can afford to the Christianity - it is a talking on the "strangers" forum inside the Internet.
And I have a huge doubts that I can be more friendly to the Christianity (and especially Islam...) in the future.
Homer171 said:
frostysh you asked: Why did not God write the true covenant in the first time? -Because God had loyal servant called Abram, God blessed the old man and said: You'r name is no longer Abram . . . God still wants us to pray peace for Israel because we have a lot to thank them for, even tough many of them are loss.
Wowow. Stop for little bit, so "The God said"  but in the previous posts I have heard that The Holy Bible was written by human authors, so where exactly the Words of God, and where the words of human authors 
As for me non-Christian, the look from a side, the Holy Bible is just a Book, with words typed there (usually without illustrations  ).
So anyone can write this words in a past, I mean 2,000 years it is a long time....
You can you be so, I have ni proper word in English, be so think that the words that you read not just a some result an imagination of long-past human author?
Baronus - I do not remember that in "The Universe with S. Hawking" I heard something against the God.. There was cool pictures, perhaps I have a bad memory..
The other your words is hardly to understand for me, and I have a doubts that I even want to do this..
|
|
Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 05:53 PM |
|
Edited by Gryphs at 17:53, 15 Jul 2016.
|
markkur said:
If you want to understand that, then read the arguments that occurred between Christ and the High Priests. Jesus taught many things much deeper than hard-hearted men following statements on stone-tablets. Also there were many Laws. i.e. It was a Jewish law to stone a Harlot...you should already know Christ's response but if not...look it up. Look-up topics like Marriage and the Sabbath while you are there.
I was speaking scientifically here. How were humans cognitively incapable of understanding Christ's teaching at the time of the old law's teaching? Because what you just said is, basically, that god created a problem for the express purpose of solving it. Then again, isn't that Christianity's overarching theme?
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 06:04 PM |
|
|
markkur said:
Folks, Fred is a big boy and can discuss his POVs, he does not need a cabinet of atheist-lawyers to blaze away for him. Had OUR discussion really went anywhere, I could have seen HIS objections or not. Then that same discussion could have progressed in an orderly way and then if need be...another or others join.
Btw, for the record, I asked him ONE open-ended question (only expecting his response to that one question) and he responded with personal questions directed conversationally to me (tell me if I was wrong about that Fred and you really were wanting to create a tribunal). His words "no offense to you Markkur" should have been some sort of restraint to you all but as usual in this place it was not. Had this been a fist-fight? you guys would have been swinging away. C'mon show some class.
sorry i missed your response. i tend to not find responses after 3 days away. after reading this post, i went back and read your response to some points i wanted to know your views on(and yes, my questions are merely conversational. i'm not trying to run you through an inquisition or anything, just attempt to find out why you could believe in something in a way that i utterly do not understand).
as far as what i meant by "insane": i'm not talking about the kind of insanity that is frothing at the mouth and dying to take a chunk out of people because an invisible being that lives in their cupboard behind the cheerios told them it was a good idea(you are one of the more level-headed people i know on the internet, markkur); i'm referring to a belief in something that cannot be seen or proven by scientific means, or even rational means. what would you say to me, if i told you that i believed in fairies and jabberwockys that were invisible, but were somehow responsible for going-ons in the world; if not directly responsible for the creation of the world itself? would i not be committed to a mental institution if i were to tell people this in abundance?
the issue i have with religion(by what i mean, belief that is grounded in faith and faith alone, despite sciences being able to prove quite otherwise), is that because so many people have this idea, it is allowed, and called "religion". if only one or two people with the same kind of mentality(fervent or not), that is, of the belief that there are:
1. magical places we go to after we die,
2. that an unseen entity is responsible for the creation of the entire universe and everything in it,
a. and has rules(commandments, is what i'm referring to, btw) for things he created, even tho those things he created hold dominion over all other living things in his creation that DON'T have the same "rules" applying to them,
...would those one or two people, NOT be committed to a mental institution for their "lack of connection to reality"?
but since so many people believe what was written in a book thousands of years ago, NOW that same belief system(in the unseen and unquantifiable), becomes ACCEPTABLE. even though the mentality is the same in the one or two who would be committed because of an apparent lack of cohesion with reality.
imo, FAITH is no different than a form of schizophrenia. because that's what it really is, to me. and on a GRAND scale.
but then, i also see this "faith" other than in unseen beings or places/realities. i understand that people like to cushion their realities/egos by believing in things that soothe them: government, law, punishment, righteousness where none is present, etc., because i understand that human ego's are fragile things.
so it's not like i think religion is the problem; it's FAITH that i have such a problem with. because FAITH is what is used to exploit people's weaknesses(or make horrible actions justifiable. not that that is the ONLY thing that could be used as a reason to be horrible to one another), instead of becoming STRONGER as a race, and a society.
to me, faith for the sake of the ego is needless, and merely inhibits true progress towards a better future for all living things as a whole(that said, technological progress has shown that we humans, as a race, aren't responsible enough to use anything with any measure of moderation. we have yet to figure out how to FIX THE FLAWS IN OURSELVES, which is what we should REALLY be focusing on). it's one thing to have faith in WHAT IS POSSIBLE BY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS; it's entirely another to have faith in something that CANNOT be proven, just to make people feel better about the lives they have or live.
because it cannot be proven, it's just a glorified THEORY. and one that doesn't make rational sense(at least, to me).
...i hope that came through without too much confusion. when i think of one thing, i tend to think of everything associated with it(and thus feel the need to express everything that can be associated with said topic); hence my somewhat everywhere-at-once typing M.O. 
|
|
Baronus
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 06:42 PM |
|
|
There is a lot of stupid Hawking textes:
http://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-makes-it-clear-there-is-no-god/
You can search more. It makes him a little respectable person. But it is about christianity not for Hawking.
....
Important thing. If you not a person who believe God you dont understand Bible. It is impossible. That is not scientific text. It is spirit talk. God is a Spirit and material world can tell about Him like metaphore. If you dont see this metaphore you se nothing...
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 06:49 PM |
|
|
frostysh said:
artu - Who they, and what incompatibilities they have in Cosmology? You may explain it like a for dumb, for me 
I was talking about Georges Lemaître's position. As the quote explains quite well, remaining both a scientist and a Christian, he admitted "the scientifically unsound" parts of the scripture were "no more inspired than any of their contemporaries." Since 19th century, or even 18th to a degree, there is a constantly widening gap between the cosmology of the natural sciences and the stories told in religious texts. They are incompatible, meaning you can not agree that both of them are true at the same time. So what people do is either reject one of them, or in some cases, take certain aspects of religion but consider the mythological stories such as Genesis etc as either symbolical, allegorical or altered. For example, according to the Bible, the Sun is created AFTER the Earth, there is "seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it" on the 3rd day of creation and then in the 4th day, the sun and the moon is created. Now, a scientist (or rather anybody with very basic knowledge of life actually) living in modern times will either reject the authenticity of this completely or if he can't give up on religion completely because of personal reasons, regard it as some symbolic tale or something not necessarily relevant to "the salvation Jesus brings." Because, you can not have plants before the sun and no matter how you stretch it, that chronology simply can not be true.
Of course, as someone who's not a believer, I see no meaningful symbolical purpose to put the creation of plants before the sun. I think, it's a literal explanation fueled by the imagination of our ancestors who had no better information back then.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 07:22 PM |
|
|
No problem frostysh just tough IF you where interested you could check how the different churches look like. But, internet is somehow "safer" place to make some questions, read and study about the things we might not yet to part of anyway. I understand you.
@artu: What are you talking about plants where before sun?
Quote:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Sun was the first day and plants the third day, what you mean?
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 07:33 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 19:34, 15 Jul 2016.
|
No, in the first day, there is "a light" but not sun (another inconsistency since, they are not talking directly about lights from distant stars or anything, which cant support plant life anyway, but rather some abstract duality of "darkness and light." The sun and the moon, however, obviously comes in day four:
And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
9 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning - the third day.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning— the fourth day.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 08:31 PM |
|
Edited by frostysh at 20:36, 15 Jul 2016.
|
I ahve spent a LOT of time to translate this post, at least I have some answers.
Baronus - , Why Hawking is stupid? He is smart. He has an atheistic position but this is his own position, and he also has some argumentation for his position. Which text of Hawking is actually stupid are? O_o??
artu - As I understand this thing, the Christianity has explained some things before Scientific Method has been developed.
After the Scientific Method has been developed, the things that Christianity explained has been reexplained by Scientists.
But It will be a good, if I can see the examples of the text in the Holy Bible that is totally incompatible with Modern Science and looks like a myths or result of some one imagination.
Because, it's looks that Holy Bible not so much disagree with Science.
 _vs_
Christianyty (Wikipedia)
Homer171 -Thanx to you again, and Sorry, but you still not said to me, Why you can be so sure, that Old Testament and the New Testament has been written with God's help.
There was many times mentioned that the Holy Bible actually was written by human author ~ 2,000 years ago.
There many myths has been written 2,000 years ago, so WHY you so sure that Holy Bible is NOT one of them?
I mean can we make an afford and imagine that The Holy Bible is only the myth, the fairy-tale, our imagination can make this happens? So why not?
And then we can try to confirm the opposite...
|
|
Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 10:40 PM |
|
|
On frostysh question, does the bible have human author or is the God the author himself?
First books of the bible have written Moses or he have gathered the materials together. He lived 3400-3200 years ago but the first book called Genesis, is a story from the very beginning of mankind and from that time there aren't any textbooks. All knowlage was passed down by teaching it to the next generations word-by-word. There are the drastic events, fall of man in the garden, the flood and story of Abraham, Isak and Jakob. Jakob sons where the forefathers of Israelites. God speak to these men (Abraham and Jakob mainly) they got the promises from God. It wasn't written word. These promises where passed down by generations. Jakob children's where slaves in Egypt. In this time people started to call them Israelites. Bible tells that God remembered His promises to Abraham and Jakob. God choose man named Moses to lead His people exile from Egypt. God speaked to Moses and after miraculous events they fled from Egypt. On their long journey to the promised land, God started to speak to Moses again. In mountains God gave them the LAW. 10 commandments where carved to stone by God himself. Moses write the rules by God's counsel. Now we don't know even today did God give Moses revelations about the past events and how much of it is by passing down after generation to another. Most likely both. God gave Moses many miracles in his lifetime. One was to write down what he had learned from God. These stories where well known among the Israelites as well.
After this became: Time of the judges, time of the profets and time of the kings. God used these leaders to bring fourth the will of God. At a time of profets God talked to his servants, the prophets and they said to people what God has said them to do, what will God do in the future. Lot's of these have written down and by profets themselves have recorded the events of Israel and the words God had spoken to them. It's stunning how accurate these profesies where about the coming Messiah even when given 700-3000 before His born to flesh. Lot of Israel history is recorded in bible about that era, wars, praises of God, heroic stories and some failures they had in life. This is all very enlightening to see the fellowship man had with God and bible tells bluntly how even the good man's falled and made mistakes.
New Testament really brings everything to closer. It starts from 4 different evangeliums. 3 eye witnesses who traveled with Jesus write what they saw and hear the few years they traveled with Jesus before He where nailed to cross (like profesies foretold). 1 evangelium was gathered from interviews author had with the people who had met Jesus and seeing the miracles He made. Now we know Jesus made lots of miracles, heal the sick and forgive people's sins. Now here I need to stop and explain something about the Word of God. Israelites knew the power of the spoken word by God himself. God said: Let there be light and the light came. Creative Word that produces life. Christians knows today what power those words have what Jesus spoke of. Jesus teached that His father has send Him and everybody who believes in Him (Jesus) will have eternal life and their inside will come fountains of eternal springs. The creative force that has produced everything, the source of all life, has born from that person, Jesus. He teached, Father has send Me and who ever comes to Me has seen the Father as the Father is with me. Of course you could only get two kinda reactions either this man's crazy an impostor who claims to be God or either He is what He says to be, who makes blinds eyes see, who raises people from their graves, could this be possible that God walks among us?
Faith is a miracle what only a God can give what is out of this world, that's why world cannot understand it. By faith we understand God created everything by saying the word. Faith is a mystery what cannot be explained be human logic or be understood other by faith alone. Everybody who accepted Him (Jesus) God gave them power to become a children's of God.
The same God who spoke to Moses, the one who traveled cross the ocean while waves stood high in the air because God was with him. Same God who apostle John says: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I might have lost the track a "little" here but quick wrap up, Jesus is the true author of the Holy book called the bible. Last part of the bible is letters to churches that have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Jesus died on the cross and poured Holy Spirit of God amongst the believers that we be in relationship and hear His voice even when He's gone to heaven. Holy Spirit came as the final teacher to direct us to will of God. Everything starts and end's in Him.
Sorry, for long post, should have made it shorter and more consistent. 
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
|
|
Baronus
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 10:44 PM |
|
Edited by Baronus at 22:54, 15 Jul 2016.
|
Bible is about spirituality not about science. So science cant subvert nothing in Bible. You cant learn in Bible about eg. planets galactics etc. Its funny:-)
Christian civilisation created science civilisation. Science is only in countries with christianity. All other countries copied Western civilisation. Without christianity Europe would be in the same level like Asia and other World.
Scientist who told about thing which are not his proffesion is stupid. Noblesse oblige. If you are scientist you cant babble like primitive man. His enunciations about God are stupid. He dont know things teaching on 1 year theology studies.
He can told "I dont meet God in my work" but no "there is no God". He discover it? No he babble like simpleton. Its inadmissible for scientist.
...
But most important thing is that is NOT TRUE! God is. I see Him all the time in my inside. For me He is only real Being. World is less real.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 10:56 PM |
|
|
Quote:
World is less real.
Yes, it's quite easy to see that in your post.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 10:59 PM |
|
|
|
This is unfair, the guy has english level even worse than mine. Arguing Confucianism with Chinese never worked for me.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted July 15, 2016 11:01 PM |
|
|
It's coherent enough to understand what he means.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted July 16, 2016 12:39 AM |
|
|
Help an anothet question by frostysh 
Okay. It's natural to question things. In pure sense my first logical problem came from rainbows! Now in bible it says that God gave a singn to Noah by an rainbow. We know it's just reflection of the sun on water drops. Like diamonds. You could make that with effect with water gun. Noi if the God gave the rainbow as sing, everytime you see this it reminds you the promise I God will not flood world again. Now did the effect really start just that day, don't thing so. You see the logic problem I resume. In the end I have no answer to that question but I now think I don't need one either. It does not solve anything.
Back to question. One is personal experience I know aim not have imaginite things but if I have how do I know that? Well there are millions who have experienced the same Spiritual truths. But what if it's based on a lie and you have been all fooled? What would be benefits of such actions? Sure, lot of people could use religious teachings to their own ends, and many does. Why not the authors them self's too? Because there is no gain it's proven fact that 10 apostles got martyr dead, for what? Okay. Well if they where all desiaved by this Jesus? They followed Him, day and night surely they knew what He was. Okay, but what if He was just told story late at night in campfire? No, it's quite true that they preached this Gospel everywhere they go after Jesus crucifixion. Now, how do you know that he was really a Son of God and not just think he was one? Well He said Himself that search yourself if this is from God or do I speak of my own, what you think? Okay, fine let's change the subject a little. In 7 days do you honestly believe that? Well, I can't say I know how it is. But, I like to keep my options open in this matter. What you mean, don't you have faith for it, hahahaa? Well I just don't think I have to hit my head to the wall and repeat to myself, this is the truth. It could be seven time periods all I know. You know the... Yes, I know, don't you think it's 7000 years like bible says 1000 years is like one day for God. How old you think earth is anyway? I dunno but they found blood in freezed dinosaur that says something. You know what else they find? Yeah, apehumans. You idiot, do you really think you are image of God? Yes, I do. They where their own species not home sapiens, if evolution where true why does some change and other stayes the same millions of years. Dogs come from wolfs but that's the far as "evolution" go, why there aren't any halfway evolutions anyway. Pffft, forget this lame chit-chat let's talk the real deal, what you think about hell? Barbeque. Stop the wiseazz, what you think more than 2/3 of world population will burn in he'll by your loving Father, how's that for Barbeque huh? No, I don't think God will enjoy the idea. Two bible passages: Hell is place for the devil and his fallen angels, not man's place but as the technical ownership of their souls are devils then... Does God enjoy sinner to die, no never, rather making u turn and life. Do you think these people deserve that kinda punishment, even the good ones that just don't believe? I don't think anyone who does not have capability to select right from wrong, like very small children and handicapped persons. Oh, how noble of you! What about the millions of who never had the change to hear, from your precious Jesus? Don't know but I know there aren't salvation outside Jesus, Bible talks about God makes His will known to man, I think morale is "inside of us" everyone that we should do the right decisions, even though some blocks this as singn of weakness and not as virtue as it is. In judgement everyone will hear their and their own heart justices against them. Last questions does the souls suffer eternity in flames of hell while worms slowly eats your body again and again all eternity? No, I don't know. Some Christians even believe soul vanishes in hell in instant. I don't share that vision but I don't go against them either. What ever it is it does not sound pleasant. Some can be metaphor as the teath pain, I don't know what it will be exactly but God has experienced that when Jesus where dead for 3 days and preached there (not technically hell)...
Yeah, I do questing these things. I would feel somehow false if I would not. I have not enough evidence to prove God does not exist so I keep believing Infact I got "stronger" everytime I notice that I can't beat myself not to beliave. Well call it what ever psychological game to justify own believes, I see it as healthy hobby makes brain active
|
|
NoobX
Undefeatable Hero
Now, this is a paradox...
|
|
posted July 16, 2016 01:06 AM |
|
|
It was about time I gave my two cents, so here:
I was born and raised Orthodox Christian, but I've never been baptized. As a kid, I would often imagine God as this old man with a long white beard, sitting up in the sky, doing whatever He did over there, and thruth be told, I was content with how things were.
When I was three, I lost my grandpa in a car crash and I got out of it badly injured. They stitched me up, I recovered. Did I blame God for that? No. I was three, and I didn't know squat about Him and His ways. Life went on, and I didn't think about that incident at all.
Along the way, I learned about other religions, namely Islam and Judaism. Again, I was a kid and I didn't pay any attention to all of that. I was too busy playing around.
Reality hit me in my face when I was ten. Turns out my dad had a car crash (what a coincidence) and was taken to a hospital. I remember to this day that I got my cross and I prayed. I prayed and I cried while I prayed for his survival. He was a good man, that's how I rember him, working day and night as a fisherman in a small village to feed his family, no matter if it was summer or winter, unbearably hot or cold outside. He knew he had to push on because of us, because there was no alternative in a coutry so poor and underdeveloped.
But no prayer could save him. Prayers don't heal broken ribs and internal bleeding, that's what I learned then. At first I thought that God had forsaken me, my family. I was still a Christian, but I was furious, I raged at this "God". Wasn't he supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful? He would've heard my prayers then.
It took me some time to... recover, but I wasn't the same. That cheerful fellow I was as a kid - he was gone now. I grew bitter and cold. I hated the world, the "creation of God"; I hated myself.
It was through that anguish that I could reshape myself, calm down, start explaining things to myself rather than blaming God for it.
Who is God, anyway? was the first question I asked myself. That was the start - asking questions. Why does he allow such things to happen? Was it just to test us? Why would he test us if he is all-knowing. He knows how everything plays out in the end. I was only scratching the surface, but that was a checkpoint on my road to reality.
I became interested in the history of mankind, but there were some problems I encountered along the way. I remeber asking my teacher how it was possible for cave-people to be the first humans when The Bible states that those were Adam and Eve, and he told me: "That's up to you to decide."
He had a point. I decided it was possible. Problem solved. Now, what else is there to ask?
I've spent quite some time denying God, denying all those things that I've been taught.
Christianity as the religion of justice, peace, love and forgiveness? With all those crusades, the clergy selling indulgences, and often breaking the laws they were meant to uphold (celibacy for an example), the Thirty Years' War, witch burnings, etc? No. That wasn't gonna work anymore. As far as I thought, the whole thing was built on lies and dogmas. The Church denied that the world was round, yet all the proof it had was a badly translated book, while mister Magellan actually got something done and proved that wrong.
By the age of thirteen, I've become an Atheist - a God-bashing Atheist, and I was proud.
As time went by, I learned about the world more and more, I learned about religious wars and how they were crippling our civilization, I learned about the intolerance towards sexualities other than the heterosexual one. I learned that religion was just a tool in the hands of leaders to justify their actions.
But I won't talk about that anymore because you can see where I'm going with it.
I've come a long way since then, and today I am an irreligious person. I don't deny God anymore because there is nothing to deny as I see it. With so many different religions today, how am I supposed to know which one is true? God has never acknowledged Himself to me in any kind, so how can I know He exists? How can I even start to believe if I don't know what to believe in in the first place?
I think that every person except a psychopath, no matter if religious or not, has the ability to tell beneficial from damaging, or as you would say it, right from wrong. That ability depends on the amount of information they have to work with, so it's only logical that a radical Islamist cannot define beneficial the same way a scientist working at CERN can because the amount and type of information they have at disposal at any given moment is not not equal.
Arguing over beliefs is ridiculous, because they are a product of the human mind, they are subjective; and I say as long as those beliefs don't harm me in any way, I can tolerate them. The moment you try to force your beliefs upon me, you cross a threshold. That's when it becomes damaging in my eyes.
I shared my experience with Christianity and finding my true self. While I can appreciate the morals behind it, I cannot make myself devoted to teaching from an old book where most of them have been debunked by today's science. Experiments I can trust because they can be observed, but God - I've never seen Him, nor felt His presence.
Thank you for reading this wine-induced ramble. I'd like to ask a single question, however.
What did it feel like when you experienced God? (I'd like a detailed description of the feeling if you can provide it)
That is one of the things I never experienced and would like to know what it's like.
____________
Ghost said:
Door knob resembles anus tap.
|
|
Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted July 16, 2016 01:21 AM |
|
|
Thank you NoobX from your story 
It's nice to hear how you have grown as a person. I respect your honesty.
I will say something, what I felt and experienced but I will do it tomorrow evening.
|
|
Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted July 16, 2016 08:46 PM |
|
|
artu said:
No, in the first day, there is "a light" but not sun...
 You are absolutely right artu. My mistake. Now some "free thinking" about this, just my ideas don't mean that it's the truth about the subject at all. What was the light created to divide light from darkness, I would like to say Jesus but this has obvious problem as He is part of God and therefore eternal, existed before time even begin. Uncreated person who has always been. This does not change the fact though that Jesus is often referred as light as the sun in many revelations NT has. Now could this light give plants lifeforce similarly as the sun?
Paul wrotes in 2 Corinthians 4:6 /For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ./ There is a clear connection to words in genesis even though the symbolism is pointed out to our hearts.
The last book of NT is written by apostle John who saw the end of the world and Jesus himself talked to him to write down what he saw in revelations. Revelation 21: 10 and 23-24 /10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it./ Now this is an event what will happen after this world end's. You don't need sun there, could it be possible that our world where created the same, the glory of God was enough to give plants life. Actually these are the very first and the very last page of the bible, have I said before Bible always comes to full closer?
Last note: This was MY ideas of the subject I got last night. Never have I heard teaching about it, nor do I claim "this is how it is". Simply, I try to figure out how things could be in cording to the teaching of bible myself. If it has theological fallacies throw it in garbage, keep the what is good says the bible.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted July 16, 2016 09:21 PM |
|
|
Quote:
You don't need sun there, could it be possible that our world where created the same, the glory of God was enough to give plants life. Actually these are the very first and the very last page of the bible, have I said before Bible always comes to full closer?
Homer, you can believe whatever you want, since what you suggest is an absolutely mystical statement, there is no way to ever falsify it. Couldn't it be that there are no plants at all and an extremely advanced alien nation from outer space projects their reality into our minds while we are connected to their super computers in a coma state? Couldn't it be that a council of goddesses created the plants by commanding the color fairies to mold them from moonlight? Why not...
You can not build a botany over blind speculation though, and botany has an explanation zillion times more probable than what you suggest. Meanwhile, common sense has an explanation about why Genesis was written that way, again, zillion times more probable than your explanation: Because people of that time imagined the order of things that were "created" according to their own self-centered priorities. I mean a God creating stars and satellites so that they can "serve as signs to mark sacred times" doesn't exactly scream out "this can't be human imagination, this is so divine," does it? The very basic principle of rationality is going from the data to the explanation, not interpreting the data to arrive at the conclusion you already wish to arrive. However, if you still want to insist that plants were created before the sun because "God can do it," well, that's really a joker card for any argument ever, right. Why try to reason at all? God can make anything. He may also be just pulling a prank on you with all this revelation thing just for kicks, since he is beyond your capacity to fully understand, you have no basis of predicting his intentions at the slightest bit. So, pick any overwhelmingly improbable suggestion you wish to.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted July 16, 2016 09:22 PM |
|
Edited by markkur at 21:34, 16 Jul 2016.
|
@ Fred
Quote:
sorry i missed your response. i tend to not find responses after 3 days
I cannot rapid fire lots of posts today and am moving very slowly even on this one, so you might have to look about a bit to find my posts. peek-a-boo.
Quote:
if i told you that i believed in fairies and jabberwockys that were invisible, but were somehow responsible for going-ons in the world; if not directly responsible for the creation of the world itself? would i not be committed to a mental institution if i were to tell people this in abundance?
How I measure people is how they treat themselves, others and the world around them. If someone, <trumpets> Loves, those around them and mother-earth and all it holds, then I seldom even think on what that person believes, unless I'm being forced; I detest slavery in all of its forms. It's not that I would not like a non-believer to become a Christian, it's just that my soul is the only one on this planet that I am held accountable and today that is both my need and responsibility. But if Thor is being worshipped and my neighbors are disappearing?...well, that's a wee bit different.
<imvho> Christianity is more a hook and no club or shotgun. In other words, I, Markkur, need to live as Christ taught me and my life-actions (including words) are my testimony to that Faith. "Maybe", if I am walking in a greater Light that is not entirely my own, than some people are going to want to see or learn the source of that life and understand how it lives through me, to reach a point where it lives through them. Btw, This is where the Church has gone horribly wrong through the centuries.
Quote:
1. magical places we go to after we die,
2. that an unseen entity is responsible for the creation of the entire universe and everything in it,
a. and has rules(commandments, is what i'm referring to, btw) for things he created, even tho those things he created hold dominion over all other living things in his creation that DON'T have the same "rules" applying to them,
About 1. I do not see life after death as magical. IF it exists, then it is a NATURAL process far beyond our radar. We just don't understand what happens to a human-spirit (energy) once it leaves the body. I saw a picture of a leaf that had been cut in half. A picture was taken and the energy-field of the leaf showed the leaf a "ghostly" whole. There are Scientist beginning to work in a new field trying to see and understand this stuff but frankly I have no time for it. If I was still a pup...maybe but even then I think far too much life is "lived through "Theory" or "microscopic eyes & brains" today and does not improve my daily actions in life one iota. Reality can never be better described for either of us, than...this moment.
About 2. I don't worry much about how this show began because I do not see the point. IF God, the God that is really God and can create life...then the idea that God is quite beyond me and that is aok. Christians like all other people today expound relentlessly about Man's origins or when the Earth will end etc. etc. etc. and I think; "Who gives a flying-flip?" How the hell does any of that change my life, "right here - right now" in the reality of this moment? It doesn't. ANYTHING that takes everyday-people's (not Scientist actually working) real-time minds away from mastering themselves and the difficulties of day to day life and responsibility is truly...delusional.
About your a.
We were made above the animals. Setting my Faith aside, however we arrived at this position...we ARE HERE. Reality should set-in that we hugely impact the environment and other creatures and we cannot bail-out because thus far we have made a mess of the globe. However, we can keep chanting "were only animals, were only animals" to our complete destruction.
Quote:
...would those one or two people, NOT be committed to a mental institution for their "lack of connection to reality"?
As we type online and avert our eyes from the horrors of today or dive-in to make check-lists of what pisses us off between meals staring at a single-screen, like that scene in "The World Stood Still" when Bork or whatever the robot's name is, stands in front of a monitor and receives his instruction. And then after we make our custom long lists what do we do with them? Does this sound like a connection to Reality?
Quote:
imo, FAITH is no different than a form of schizophrenia. because that's what it really is, to me. and on a GRAND scale.
Frankly I see just the opposite. Look around the world today and see the glorious world that modern man has created and tell me by anything other than the Beast-equation, that what we see is sane. You could eliminate the head-choppers and the Earth is still a huge mess. And I think it is because too many people have lost all connection to the Divine Spark that resides in every human-being.
Quote:
but then, i also see this "faith" other than in unseen beings or places/realities. i understand that people like to cushion their realities/egos by believing in things that soothe them: government, law, punishment, righteousness where none is present, etc., because i understand that human ego's are fragile things.
Ego is found in every healthy soul/person. And so the focus of a soul becomes it's chief expression. I've found this happens in stages due to the human maturing process and diminishes but does not die.
Quote:
so it's not like i think religion is the problem; it's FAITH that i have such a problem with. because FAITH is what is used to exploit people's weaknesses(or make horrible actions justifiable. not that that is the ONLY thing that could be used as a reason to be horrible to one another), instead of becoming STRONGER as a race, and a society.
I am opposite here again. My individual Faith is a very good thing and not only for myself. However, Religion, meaning "catch-all" becomes very dangerous when it catches drifting-souls that have nothing going on inside themselves. I need look no farther than many Churches in the USA to see people not "working at Christ within themselves alone and day to day" but instead pursing "others" who tell/command them what to believe. If those same people actually knew the Lord they supposedly follow (they do not follow Christ) then they would have all the tools necessary to put all false-preachers out on the streets and out of their lives.
Fred, I can only guess you have at least seen the new non-Christianity called by various names like..."Name it-Claim it" or the Prosperity-Gospel.
Folks like Henn, the Copelands, Swaggerts, Bakers, Olsten, Meyers, Dollar (now there's an appropriate name) are false-preachers that Christ warned about and yet millions are now following these folks and hanging on every word except..."THE WORD (Christ) written straight to them."
To me, the above is no different than being told how to drive a car without drivers-education, car manuals or reading the laws about driving a vehicle.
Quote:
to me,
A. faith for the sake of the ego is needless,
B. we have yet to figure out how to FIX THE FLAWS IN OURSELVES, which is what we should REALLY be focusing on).
C. it's one thing to have faith in WHAT IS POSSIBLE BY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS; it's entirely another to have faith in something that CANNOT be proven, just to make people feel better about the lives they have or live.
About a. No even simple faith comes into play in daily life. When you hand a wad a cash to a salesman for a car that he says is in good condition and you accept his word, that is a "transaction taken in good faith". Unless you take the car to a mechanic you are going on his word only.
However, even if you find a mechanic that then saw no problems with the car, it still might soon fail...right? However, it could prove to be an awesome car and even after you did not have it checked first. In Reality, the only way to know the car ends up being a good car is to own it and drive the thing and have the thing meet your good car requirements. 
About b. I have figured out the requirements for me Fred. And I mean this; making myself wake-up to the fact that I am a human-being and have 3 parts: Spirit, Mind and Body was very important; and more importantly it is Universal. Today we have no problems with Mind or Body (work) as evidenced by folks that are always seeking more knowledge (mind) or people endless in the gym[body) but the Spirit is just chalked up to Emotions and lies under the brain and body in priority. And yet the Spirit is at the heart of the person each one of us are and more importantly...could be.
About c. Let's set aside my Faith and just think about a man of Science. What sets a person on a mission to understand something when he was told how laws worked? Was it not he had a "Vision" coupled with a nagging spirit that something was not right? Of course. Had he just remained quiet and not looked deeper than he would have "missed his calling". 
For me this has worked out "inside-Faith" about the Spiritual side of life. And the fact that this is a free, simple knowledge, a gift, that's been around for awhile is no deterrent.
Quote:
because it cannot be proven, it's just a glorified THEORY. and one that doesn't make rational sense(at least, to me).
I listened to Dawkins go through his Mantras and Theories all the way back to the beginning of life and you know what the last thing he said was? "We (man)do not know how life began."
Yet, an enormous amount of Money (mostly taxes), creating a world of various Scientific careers and lively-hoods for legions of people to sit around on their assess and postulate endless theories, write books and go around on speaking-tours as "Today's high-priests" and after all of that and this - Man cannot create life. And taking life from human bodies for Frankenstein experiments...doesn't count.
Quote:
...i hope that came through without too much confusion.
Of course it did Fred, remember I had an Atheist Father and I was heavily swayed by endless scientific rants, (meaning his but not yours at the moment...at least here in text.) till I was 25.
Fred I am going to move on and work on my project. My days are difficult; I should probably write again for that thread on pain. I do hope you will read and comment on the writing once it is done and posted. I doubt I will make anyone happy but I do hope it builds a bridge between people that has nearly been destroyed.
May God bless that endeavor by anyone. Sorry...just had to.
<toasts to friendship> however distant
Take care
____________
"Do your own research"
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
