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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted January 18, 2023 07:47 AM |
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ever notice how we anthropomorphize evolution?
my parents intelligently created me
their parents intelligently created them
their parents intelligently created them
their parents intelligently created them...
what does intelligent selection look like at "the beginning of the universe * "?
intelligence begets intelligence
* dont forget that your perception of time is a particular limitation of human sensuality
we are not separate from our environment, at this very instant WE ARE the pinnacle, prevalent, immutable, intelligent creativity of nature.
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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Drakon-Deus 
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 18, 2023 07:58 AM |
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yogi said:
intelligence begets intelligence
* dont forget that your perception of time is a particular limitation of human sensuality
we are not separate from our environment, at this very instant WE ARE the pinnacle, prevalent, immutable, intelligent creativity of nature.
Quoted for truth.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 18, 2023 08:05 AM |
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A).
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. - Colossians 2:8
B).
19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
- 1 Corinthians 1:19-25
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 18, 2023 08:21 AM |
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@yogi
Although it sounds poetic, that's not really true, not according to what is meant by "intelligent design" anyway.
Universe doesnt have a goal or purpose, neither does evolution. Organisms, intelligent or not, try to reproduce, yes. But they dont reproduce according to an intelligent plan or because of their intelligence, even if they are intelligent species. (And species such as bacteria have no intelligence at all, they are hardwired to reproduce as a chemical reaction.)
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted January 18, 2023 08:34 AM |
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artu said:
Universe doesnt have a goal or purpose, neither does evolution. Organisms, intelligent or not, try to reproduce, yes. But they dont reproduce according to an intelligent plan or because of their intelligence, even if they are intelligent species. (And species such as bacteria have no intelligence at all, they are hardwired to reproduce as a chemical reaction.)
You're Projecting *
* spirituality in a nut-shell
____________
yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 18, 2023 09:07 AM |
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No, I am not projectnig.  There is no reason to conclude the universe has a teleological purpose, causality is not teleology.
To project would be to presume it does, because we as have individuals have purposes.
Anthropomorphism in a nut shell. 
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted January 18, 2023 09:45 AM |
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Edited by yogi at 10:02, 18 Jan 2023.
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artu said:
I am not projecting
^oxymoron.
but a good koan.
artu said:
because we as have individuals have purposes
"be the change you wish to see in the world." ~G
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 18, 2023 10:23 AM |
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An oxymoron needs to be a phrase for starters, that is not one.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted January 18, 2023 03:27 PM |
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Artu. The fact that I am an engineer has all bearing on this particular topic. Have you designed anything in your life? Have you had the difficulties of making something truly work the way you desired? The amount of human intelligence it takes to come up with something that improves our lives is enormous. The machine you are using to comment here is a wonder, a milestone of human thought, but nothing about it comes nowhere near the complexity of a single cell and we have trillions of them and they work coordinetaly (they even do signal processing in a way we have not yet begun to understand). It's easy for a paleontologist to look at all that assembled work and say "gotcha, these beings turned into each other, end of the story, period." Yeah, right, through which mechanism? Random mutation filtered by natural selection? That may explain local changes, but there's not a single thread of evidence that these little modifications build up into different body plans (bauplan, if you speak German), for instance. Even evolutionists like Richard Dawkins try and confuse these two things, micro and macro evolution, as if the latter was simply the former repeated for a long time. That is not the case.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 18, 2023 03:42 PM |
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Take a peace, Gandalf!
Not the only man! We also know https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicellular_organism. So trillion vs one are great marvel.. Your knowledge isn't enough, if only you read the Bible.. So he isn't an expert, but great atheist.. Which I choose trillion or one.. I choose one! Evolution started unicellular organism.. What you can't see cheese changed mold.. So unicellular organism is existence.. Artu laughs you.. But we need a fact that we find to origin.. Without cheese, so mold can't existence.. Ok? Molds are existing, but no cheese.. Those went out.. We need a origin.. Trillion? Ok clone.. What then? It's easier than one..
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 18, 2023 04:17 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:22, 18 Jan 2023.
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No, it doesnt. Humans arent designed, they reproduce. If computers mated with other computers, and then had baby computers that were slightly different than their ancestors, the case would be similar, it is not.
There is NO debate today, that evolutionary mechanisms can gradually cause simple life forms to turn into more sophisticated ones. There is also no debate, that all organisms carry disadvantages and defects that does not fit into the concept of an intelligient design. You have junk dna you share with earlier species that has no purpose in your body, you have muscles in your feet that used to grab things but are now idle. Not to mention, all of these similarities, defects fit into a scale of genetic kinship that fits a timeline, a geographical diversity, and geological layers.
If you and your dad were to go into a hospital for you are supposed to give him a kidney, and they tell you that there must have been a mix-up back in the day in the new borns room, that you are in fact not related, your DNAs dont match, would you say, "meeh, I dont trust that tech" and risk your life anyway? No. That is the same tech that detects the level of kinship you have with a gorilla and a banana tree. The difference between micro and macro evolution is the amount of time that had shifted the gene frequency, just like you need more generations for German to evolve into English (or was that the tower of Babel), than English to divide into British, Texan, Australian English etc, you need more generations for the gene pool to detach from ancestoral species enough to not be able to reproduce anymore. Horses and donkeys, tigers and lions, these can still mate, yet their offspring cant reproduce.
Needless to say, I am explaining this not even on 101 level and actual biologists have a zillion technical, hardcore data for the experts. And your alternative is simply this: A creator who periodically designs new, flawed organisms which somehow look like they just fit into an evolutionary timeline genetically, anatomically, geologically (different fossills on different layers), geographically (biodiversity and kinship is not random even in any given timeline). The amount of data from all of these branches are so vast and fitting at this point, it is really not even beating a dead horse to deny evolution, it is beating yourself on the head.
@Ghost, the first life is a question for abiogenesis, not evolution. Yet the first life forms are so primitive, it is still simpler to explain them by chemical reaction than a designer. And again, if you were to intelligently design humans, why pick such a method, why 3.7 billion years of sheer violence, extinction, suffering? Why are we designed to eat each other if this god is so loving? Imagine being hunted alive, which was the case for also our species before civilization, why pick such a model? And how about mass extinction events, without them, evolutionary path would advance differently, so were dinosaurs first created and then hit with a meteor so that we can evolve? Where is the intelligence in that?
Accept reality as it is. Anything of value starts with that.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 18, 2023 04:50 PM |
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@artu
Good you brought up the term.. Ok I believe we will find it..
God? Dinosaur? Hmm, the Bible only has a flood. Yes, there was only a sea monster in the Genesis. Pentecostal doesn't believe dinosaurs. Yes JWs believe existence, but a herbivore. I haven't found anything. Fossils testify well. Because I started listening to Pentecostal, when I was such a small boy aged under 12. So evolution is better, thus an interesting dinosaur. I like..
@Gandalf
I meant also thing, what artu gave term.. Then it developed.. But I'm drunk now..
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 18, 2023 05:26 PM |
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 19, 2023 06:30 AM |
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The Flood could have been local or global. The point is, it's a real event.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 19, 2023 12:48 PM |
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Edited by artu at 12:50, 19 Jan 2023.
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There are many floods and tsunamis through out history, we just had one not long ago around Indonesia in 2004 killing more than 225.000 people within minutes.
The one in the Bible is almost certainly based on a real disaster, too, obviously. That's how legends work. It must be local because all the tectonic plates of the world wont move at once. The thing is, to ancient people, their surroundings were "the whole world."
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted January 19, 2023 03:03 PM |
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@artu, despite our political/ideological differences and the tone of some of our exchanges, I do not believe for a second that you are a malicious individual or that you are rebutting what I write just for the sake of it. Not at all. Au contraire, I think we both are interested in the same thing – the truth. And, condescending as it may sound, I was sitting where you are some years ago. I mean, the default intellectual position for educated people is to accept uncritically the materialistic explanation for the origin and development of life, that is, the neo Darwinian Modern Synthesis (MS).
You cite as an example the case of “junk DNA”. I learned about that in high school too. Putting it very succinctly in the form of an argument:
1)There are regions of our DNA that do not code for proteins;
2)Oh, well, since we interpret all our biological data through the lens of MS, the explanation for these non-coding DNA can only be that they are leftovers from our ancestors;
3)Ergo, it is junk DNA.
Fast forward a few years and the scientists find biological purpose for these segments of DNA. The literature is quite technical (as one might expect), but among other things it can be said that “junk DNA” can play a metainformative role in protein synthesis (providing information about how to use information). One may cling to MS by saying something along the lines of “well, it’s just that random mutation and natural selection managed to provide a function to these non-coding segments of DNA”, but a more scientific approach, in my point of view, would be that there is something fundamentally flawed MS assumptions. You can find more information about “junk DNA” here:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35535669/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4014423/
About the distinction between micro and macro evolution, as I said, people such as Richard Dawkins often confuse both terms, either by stating that the latter is just the result of multiple iterations of the former or that only creationists see the necessity of dividing both. I intend to show you that is not true. As one can read in the first chapter of Robert Lynn Carroll’s Patterns and Processes of Vertebrate Evolution,
Further down he also states
Carroll is one fine paleontologist and by no means a creationist or ID-proponent, but treats the matter in a strikingly different from the usual “propagandists”, his approach is a truly scientific one, providing solid arguments and powerful evidence to persuade us to accept MS as a reasonable explanation for the diversity of life. I find it lacking though. The more I read criticism about the current orthodoxy, the more I believe it is on its way out; there A LOT of things it explains poorly at best and handwaving aplenty. I am open to a materialistic explanation. Lynn Margulis’ endosymbiotic hypothesis comes to mind and, honest as she was, she knew there were glaring flaws about MS, such as
It’s my current belief that the evolutionary history of life in our planet can only be explained by some variation of a “canalization theory”, that is, evolution clearly has some sort of goals, of purposes, some pre-existing forms to which biologicals converge. I find it hard to summarize this in words, and it may sound bullsnow to you now, but, to me, it is much better than what we’ve currently got.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 21, 2023 05:09 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:12, 21 Jan 2023.
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Somebody said he used to believe in a theistic evolution, but now he denies it completely, which you replied to "perfect" and then, claimed evolution will be soon refuted.
None of the things you link here have absolutely nothing to support that, none.
Your link about junk DNA doesnt say junk DNA doesnt exist. On the contrary, it suggests to call some, and only some of the junk DNA, spam DNA because our body discovered to make use of it. It is still ancestoral DNA that wouldnt be there in the first place, without evolution.
Not to mention that lots of organisms including us, also having idle organs and body parts. Why do whales have skeletal remains of legs, how are they mammals living in the sea, why would they be "designed" that way? What is micro about that?
Dawkins and other biologists arent wrong to point out that the MAIN difference between micro and macro evolution is the amount of time required. Your pages about micro/macro evolution is like a climate scientist explaining how diffeerent parameters with a different frequency are in effect when you study weather change over a week and weather change over a century. But it is still the same meteorological laws that are applied. Same with evolution, it is not like you need a unifying "theory of everything" to combine evolution's micro and macro effects, they are still all part of the same evolutionary process, natural selection still applies, genetic heritage still applies, gene frequency of a population still applies and so on...
As he already points out, the differences neither indicate nor can be explained by a designer or a purpose. Explaining away isnt really explaining and such differences dont qualify as things that would refute evolution anyway. They are relatively minor details that dont change the bigger picture. You have a 3.7 billion years old process with zillions of parameters and conditions, of course, there are details yet unsolved. I already told you the theory may get modified and expand in the future. But it contains no mystery that suggests a conscious purpose behind it. And what would that purpose be anyway, "to achieve humanity," oh, how convenient! From a designer's point of view, this would have been the most unintelligent way to achieve it, it would have been like carving up a whole giant tree in order to make one matchstick. And why should we or anything else be the purpose anyway? We wishing there was or we were one, because of our ego is a much much simpler explanation.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted January 27, 2023 06:04 AM |
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Edited by yogi at 21:50, 27 Jan 2023.
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"Two things having been previously created, that is, mind and outward sense, and these also having been stripped naked in the manner which has already been shown, it follows of necessity that pleasure, which brings these two together, must be the third, for the purpose of facilitating the comprehension of the objects of intellect and of outward sense: for neither could the mind, without the outward sense, be able to comprehend the nature of any animal or of any plant, or of a stone or of a piece of wood, or, in short, of any substance whatever; nor could the outward sense exercise its proper faculties without the mind. Since, therefore, it was necessary for both these things to come together for the due comprehension of these objects, what was it which brought them together except a third something which acted as a bond between them, the two first representing love and desire, and pleasure not obtaining the dominion and mastery, which pleasure Moses here speaks of symbolically, under the emblem of the serpent. God, who created all the animals on the earth, arranged this order very admirably, for he placed the mind first, that is to say, man, for the mind is the most important part in man; then outward sense, that is the woman; and then proceeding in regular order he came to the third, pleasure. But the powers of these three, and their ages, are different only in the night, for in point of time they are equal; for the soul brings forward everything at the same moment with itself: but some things it brings forward in their actuality, and others in their power of existing, even if they have not yet arrived at the end."
Legum Allegoriae, II
XVIII (71)
Philo of Alexandria
(born 15–10 bce, Alexandria—died 45–50 ce, Alexandria)
https://books.google.com/books?id=CpVrEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT20&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
"Josephus, the historian of the Jews who also lived in the 1st century, says that Philo’s family surpassed all others in the nobility of its lineage. His father had apparently played a prominent role in Palestine before moving to Alexandria. Philo’s brother Alexander Lysimachus, who was a general tax administrator in charge of customs in Alexandria, was the richest man in the city and indeed must have been one of the richest men in the Hellenistic world, because Josephus says that he gave a huge loan to the wife of the Jewish king Agrippa I and that he contributed the gold and silver with which nine huge gates of the Temple in Jerusalem were overlaid. Alexander was also extremely influential in Roman imperial circles, being an old friend of the emperor Claudius and having acted as guardian for the emperor’s mother."
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Philo-Judaeus
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 27, 2023 06:23 AM |
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Thank you friend yogi.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 28, 2023 05:15 AM |
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1st Corinthians 13:8-12 Love never ends; but prophecies will pass, tongues will cease, knowledge will pass.
9 For our knowledge is partial, and our prophecy partial;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass.
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, argued like a child; now that I have become a man, I have finished with childish ways.
12 For now we see obscurely in a mirror, but then it will be face to face. Now I know partly; then I will know fully, just as God has fully known me.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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This thread is pages long: 
