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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Will Vivendi acquire Ubisoft and Gameloft?
Thread: Will Vivendi acquire Ubisoft and Gameloft? This thread is 17 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 · «PREV / NEXT»
verriker
verriker


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Legendary Hero
Walterwin Mitty
posted June 16, 2017 04:00 PM

for sure I have heard countless mobs of people bring up the Child of Light and Valiant Hearts in these Vivendi acquisition threads across the web, usually as a kind of catch all argument to defend Ubisoft track record, basically chanting "what about Child of Light and Valiant Hearts", mate you would think those two games are brilliant masterpieces for the ages, they are good but they are not really that good lol

bear in mind that even for Heroes we got Might and Magic Clash of Heroes which is a very good game, it is not astronomical good to negate all of Ubisoft's other failed games and justify that their buying of Might and Magic is a net good move though,
plus it is not as if Ubisoft actually is a great and benign bastion of creativity in the industry, that is mere fake news of Yves, there are other big publishers which certainly take a risk and support indie games like Square Enix even if they do not constantly go on and on about how benevolent they are to the press, indie developers will generally find a place anyway with all of the Kickstarter going on, I certainly can commend that aspect of Ubisoft but let us not exaggerate by kidding ourselves that games like these would never exist without them lol

the problem is that even if Vivendi enact all the stereotypical tropes of a bad publisher, it literally cannot make me care any less about any new Might and Magic games than I already do, in fact as I have often said I will respect Vivendi if they do this because at least it will be honest and upfront, unlike Ubisoft's deceitful bait and switch tactic which is to repeatedly try and fool us with honeyed words of being very loyal to the fans and wanting to create a dream game for everybody, before ultimately releasing a ****** product which is buried in mere months lol
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
posted June 16, 2017 04:37 PM

verriker said:
unlike Ubisoft's deceitful bait and switch tactic which is to repeatedly try and fool us with honeyed words of being very loyal to the fans and wanting to create a dream game for everybody, before ultimately releasing a ****** product which is buried in mere months lol


I am are particularly agreed, +1 Mr Verriker, everybody knows UBI's VIP program for MM IP was a farce meant only for marketing and not actually going in the directions indicated by the fandom. "We know better than you what is fun for you" was their official motto. There is so many examples of great games where developers are actually close to their players and the results were always there, so there is no excuse here really.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


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Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted June 16, 2017 05:39 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 17:41, 16 Jun 2017.

Cleave said:
It's been quite some time now and I still can't make sense of what they've tried to do with H7. It didn't make sense when I was playing the beta and it doesn't make sense now. I would have been more than happy with a revamped H5 but it seems they can't let go of some of the stuff that H6 did put on the table.

I may be in the minority but I do think that with a little modding H5 can be even better than H3 and I wished they just built on that.

Not in the minority, necessarily. There's a good fraction of this community that share this opinion, myself included.

I don't hold particular hopes for or against Vivendi, I don't know anything about them. What I do know is that 3D0 ran the series off track after H3, trying to be "innovative". H5 was UbiSofts "safe buy", essentially recreating H3+ to ensure profit, before the creative teams were allowed to be "innovative" (which then gave us H6).

The disaster that is H7 goes to prove that we won't be freed of the shackles of H6 before a completely new team comes to. It might be with a Vivendi takeover, or it might not, but the current team under Ubisoft have proven unable to bring the game back on track, and as it is now, the game is dead to me. The only hope I ever see of it being resurrected is someone buying it and trying to make a safe cash-grab by making a "H5+", essentially booting the series back to that point (before probably derailing it yet again). How likely is that to happen? Not very. But it's better than the chance of Ubi doing it as long as Erwin and his "creative" team is in any way connected to it imo.

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Stevie
Stevie


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posted June 16, 2017 06:31 PM
Edited by Stevie at 19:50, 16 Jun 2017.

alcibiades said:
What I do know is that 3D0 ran the series off track after H3, trying to be "innovative". H5 was UbiSofts "safe buy", essentially recreating H3+ to ensure profit, before the creative teams were allowed to be "innovative" (which then gave us H6)


Are you sure about that? Because it seems to me that the failures of Heroes 4 and MM9 were a direct cause of JVC, not at all of 3DO. When NWC employees were scratching their heads trying to wrap themselves around the games they were working on, he was driving his racing cars into the sunset without a care, not once being in office for months on end. Tim Lang was quite straightforward about it back in the day.

As for Heroes 5, it was more than just Heroes 3+, it had innovations of its own. Gameplay-wise, it surpassed Heroes 3 and that's not because of no reason. Initiative, skill system, 3D, Rage mechanics, all those were more than just an upgrade, they were remarkable changes and additions. What Nival did well was to take the key features that worked in the past and bring them back while also providing something different with its own appeal.

Galaad said:
everybody knows UBI's VIP program for MM IP was a farce meant only for marketing and not actually going in the directions indicated by the fandom. "We know better than you what is fun for you" was their official motto. There is so many examples of great games where developers are actually close to their players and the results were always there, so there is no excuse here really.


I can't think of any one game off the top of my head with a similar level of community involvement to that of Heroes 7 that was a resounding success, but maybe you have some examples? I on the other hand can name you hundreds of games that had their development doors close shut to the fans and were still amazing, take JVC's games for a quick example. Really, relying on the fans is good to the extent of feedback, not deciding game features or content or determining development milestones in any other way.

The real problem, just like Alcibiades mentioned, is the devs and the creative team that are incompetent and have no idea about what they're doing. And I feel the same as he does with respects to the series, it needs a reboot from Ashan and the "creative" vision of the past few games to start anew, this time with ambition, passion and a good development team.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
posted June 16, 2017 06:45 PM

@Cleave: Actually a crushing majority expressed their wish for something built on h5 for h7. They said no and built it on the infamous h6 instead, whatever.

@Stevie: First there was no community involvement in h7, the SC was 100% marketing and we all know what happened in the closed forums.
For the rest of your post I don't really get your objections since I agree with what you said? I never said players were to design the game at the same level of developers, where did you get this idea.
About games with community involvement, an example that you should relate at would be DOS, which made the EE following fans feedback and additions such as ie Dual-Wander class is not little.
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Cleave
Cleave


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Raging Blood
posted June 16, 2017 07:48 PM

I'm French and I'm really wary of Vivendi meddling with other companies especially considering that they only care about making a profit. I'm not saying the people at Ubisoft don't care about making money, I'm saying that at least they are in the business of making games (and the same can't be said about Vivendi).

Sorry if I sound like a scratched record but I can't stress that enough, Vivendi will ruin Ubisoft if they take over. Canal + was a remarkable channel on French TV with provocative content and thought provoking programs and now it has become a mere shadow of what it was. That's the example we should examine.

Former French president François Hollande called Vincent Bolloré, the tycoon at the helm of Vivendi, a "pirate" that's how bad it is.

verriker said:
for sure I have heard countless mobs of people bring up the Child of Light and Valiant Hearts in these Vivendi acquisition threads across the web, usually as a kind of catch all argument to defend Ubisoft track record, basically chanting "what about Child of Light and Valiant Hearts", mate you would think those two games are brilliant masterpieces for the ages, they are good but they are not really that good lol

bear in mind that even for Heroes we got Might and Magic Clash of Heroes which is a very good game, it is not astronomical good to negate all of Ubisoft's other failed games and justify that their buying of Might and Magic is a net good move though,
plus it is not as if Ubisoft actually is a great and benign bastion of creativity in the industry, that is mere fake news of Yves, there are other big publishers which certainly take a risk and support indie games like Square Enix even if they do not constantly go on and on about how benevolent they are to the press, indie developers will generally find a place anyway with all of the Kickstarter going on, I certainly can commend that aspect of Ubisoft but let us not exaggerate by kidding ourselves that games like these would never exist without them lol

the problem is that even if Vivendi enact all the stereotypical tropes of a bad publisher, it literally cannot make me care any less about any new Might and Magic games than I already do, in fact as I have often said I will respect Vivendi if they do this because at least it will be honest and upfront, unlike Ubisoft's deceitful bait and switch tactic which is to repeatedly try and fool us with honeyed words of being very loyal to the fans and wanting to create a dream game for everybody, before ultimately releasing a ****** product which is buried in mere months lol


Square Enix really did a number on the latest Deus Ex... I'm sorry but it's hard to take them as a model of what publishers should be doing after that and it's hard to see how they are supposedly any better than Ubisoft.

Aionb said:
Cleave said:
...only drawback is that the resolution mod doesn't work for Chronicles.


You can open any of the Heroes Chronicles as campaigns or maps in H3 and use the HD mod. It works great


I need to figure how it's done then! Thanks for the tip.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted June 16, 2017 07:51 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 19:54, 16 Jun 2017.

Stevie said:
Are you sure about that? Because it seems to me that the failures of Heroes 4 and MM9 were a direct cause of JVC, not at all of 3DO. When NWC employees were scratching their heads trying to wrap themselves around the games they were working on, he was driving his racing cars into the sunset without a care, not once being in office for months on end. Tim Lang was quite straightforward about it back in the day.

As for Heroes 5, it was more than just Heroes 3+, it had innovations of its own. Gameplay-wise, it surpassed Heroes 3 and that's not because of no reason. Initiative, skill system, 3D, Rage mechanics, all those were more than just an upgrade, they were remarkable changes and additions. What Nival did well was to take the key features that worked in the past and bring them back while also providing something different with its own appeal.

About H3: Don't know the details about the what's and why's with H4. My point was, clearly they felt they had to bring something "new" to the table compared with H3 and I, personally, was less than thrilled with the result (yes, H4 did have some positive aspects, there were just many more negatives in my book).

As for H5, I know that they have very explicitly said that the design team, when making H5, was given a bound task of making a game that stayed close to the H3 formula in order to decrease Ubisoft's risk with buying the franchise. I think it was Erwin himself who described this in the time up to or after H6 - I don't recall the details. Anyway, I remember that the actual design team felt they did not really get to unleash their "brilliant" ideas when making H5, and it was only with H6 that they got the freedom to bring the series to the "full potential", that they saw in the series.

So what I want is not a 100 % clone of H5 - that would be pointless - but I want something that is explicitly designed with intention to play out like H5, but with the weaker aspects of H5 being adressed.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Walterwin Mitty
posted June 16, 2017 08:07 PM

Cleave said:
Square Enix really did a number on the latest Deus Ex... I'm sorry but it's hard to take them as a model of what publishers should be doing after that and it's hard to see how they are supposedly any better than Ubisoft.


but I did not argue that they are better than Ubisoft or a model of other publishers in my post mate, I merely have said that they are an example of another publisher who takes strange or risky projects and have an extensive indie developer support program even if they do not brag about these so much, thus Ubisoft is nothing special as they would have you to believe lol

if there is the market there for these indie games then they will find a way with Yves or without him, it is very much a case of "nothing of value was lost" if Ubisoft goes down,
most of their big budget games are all the same and according to their financial reports they will be doubling down on vapid mobile and online games for the future so it is garbage for me, hell they do not even create Rayman games any more which was their only series I can say I personally enjoyed lol
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Aionb
Aionb


Known Hero
posted June 16, 2017 08:29 PM

Cleave said:
I need to figure how it's done then! Thanks for the tip.

You need to have them converted in the ".h3c" format. Someone posted them in this format long ago, right here on HC. And here they are for you to enjoy, as well: here

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Stevie
Stevie


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Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted June 16, 2017 08:52 PM

Galaad said:
@Stevie: First there was no community involvement in h7, the SC was 100% marketing and we all know what happened in the closed forums.
For the rest of your post I don't really get your objections since I agree with what you said? I never said players were to design the game at the same level of developers, where did you get this idea.
About games with community involvement, an example that you should relate at would be DOS, which made the EE following fans feedback and additions such as ie Dual-Wander class is not little.


I wouldn't take everything that happened around the shadow council and write it off as 100% marketing at all, there's no doubt that content was decided by the vote of the fans. I haven't seen any other game with an open dev to that extent, certainly not Divinity that had no open dev at all. Any producer or developer can go around and say that they're listening to feedback and implementing it into the game, but that's nowhere near the same level as giving fans a definitive say on what concepts end up in the game or not. With the open dev for Heroes 7, fans' vote was alike a designer's decision. Either Sylvan or Fortress, either Dungeon or Inferno, it's this line-up and not that one, etc. Of course they have all the interest to trumpet it far and wide for marketing purposes, they'd be stupid not to.
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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted June 16, 2017 09:05 PM

verriker said:
Cleave said:
Square Enix really did a number on the latest Deus Ex... I'm sorry but it's hard to take them as a model of what publishers should be doing after that and it's hard to see how they are supposedly any better than Ubisoft.


but I did not argue that they are better than Ubisoft or a model of other publishers in my post mate, I merely have said that they are an example of another publisher who takes strange or risky projects and have an extensive indie developer support program even if they do not brag about these so much, thus Ubisoft is nothing special as they would have you to believe lol

if there is the market there for these indie games then they will find a way with Yves or without him, it is very much a case of "nothing of value was lost" if Ubisoft goes down,
most of their big budget games are all the same and according to their financial reports they will be doubling down on vapid mobile and online games for the future so it is garbage for me, hell they do not even create Rayman games any more which was their only series I can say I personally enjoyed lol


Sorry but the bragging is something that you seem to be obsessing over because as far as I can say I've received emails from Square Enix about their involvement with indie projects but I can't say the same about Ubisoft.

By the way I've mentioned three games, Child of Light, Valiant Hearts and Grow Home. What Square Enix games are you thinking about? I'm not trying to get into an argument, in all fairness I can't think of any game like the ones I've mentioned published by Square Enix (but I may be missing something here).

I understand you have a chip on your shoulder (for the record I'm not saying you're wrong about that, quite frankly I'm far from being pleased myself) but thinking Square Enix or EA are any better would be a mistake. Even Paradox may not be any better in the way they're pushing nickel and dime DLC.

Aionb said:
Cleave said:
I need to figure how it's done then! Thanks for the tip.

You need to have them converted in the ".h3c" format. Someone posted them in this format long ago, right here on HC. And here they are for you to enjoy, as well: here


Thanks, this is much appreciated. I didn't play these campaigns back then so it's refreshing and at the same time it brings back many good memories of playing H3.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Walterwin Mitty
posted June 16, 2017 10:01 PM

Cleave said:
Sorry but the bragging is something that you seem to be obsessing over because as far as I can say I've received emails from Square Enix about their involvement with indie projects but I can't say the same about Ubisoft.


I am not obsessed with it mate, really that is actually a very minor point, for what I care they could brag all they want if they made great games,
however I think if you are getting emails from Square Enix you have obviously opted in to a private mailing list for them mate, personally that is a different situation to all of the public theatrics from Ubisoft documented earlier in this thread, such as those speeches to the media about how creative and great Ubisoft is, the "We Are Ubisoft" circus on the Facebook, Yves making his big tragic melodrama at the previous E3 and so on lol

you may say that this is merely because Ubisoft are under threat and are thus making a scene to try (and fail) to curry the public support, but they do have a history of inappropriately smelling their own farts like that, I for sure remember for example when they ditched paper manuals for their games to cut costs and tried to spin it as a majorly innovative charitable move to save the environment and the rainforest, it was quite laughable, or when they gave into pressure and did away with their Draconian DRM (don't forget that they were the first big publisher to force Draconian online DRM on all of their games, an extremely anti-consumer move) they tried to sell it as a grand gesture for the paying customer when in fact they were merely pulling the knife out of their own victims whom they had stabbed with the Draconian DRM lol

Cleave said:
By the way I've mentioned three games, Child of Light, Valiant Hearts and Grow Home. What Square Enix games are you thinking about? I'm not trying to get into an argument, in all fairness I can't think of any game like the ones I've mentioned published by Square Enix (but I may be missing something here).


Square Enix took a lot of risks on niche or otherwise dodgy projects in recent years mate, check stuff like Bravely Default, Life Is Strange, I am Satsuma, Murdered Soul Suspect, Sleeping Dogs and the like, also check that Square Enix Collective they recently launched to give a platform to indie developers which is already getting several weird and wacky indie games on the road, they even opened up some of their own old franchises for indie developers to use which is a very unorthodox thing to do lol

Cleave said:
I understand you have a chip on your shoulder (for the record I'm not saying you're wrong about that, quite frankly I'm far from being pleased myself) but thinking Square Enix or EA are any better would be a mistake.


mate there are only so many ways I can say or rephrase it, I will have a hard time to put it in plainer English than I already have that I really do not think Square Enix or EA are better than Ubisoft is, they also have many scandals and stupid moments to take to task, I am merely pointing out that Ubisoft in turn is equally not any better than they are and it is not as unique or special as it tries to fool people into thinking it is lol
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
posted June 16, 2017 10:01 PM

Stevie said:
there's no doubt that content was decided by the vote of the fans.


Sorry but lol.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted June 16, 2017 10:50 PM

Only the truth.
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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
zombie
posted June 16, 2017 10:54 PM

From a certain point of view, sure
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Stevie
Stevie


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Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted June 16, 2017 10:58 PM

No two ways about it. Conspiracy theories are no evidence to the contrary.
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Cleave
Cleave


Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
posted June 16, 2017 11:40 PM

verriker said:
Cleave said:
Sorry but the bragging is something that you seem to be obsessing over because as far as I can say I've received emails from Square Enix about their involvement with indie projects but I can't say the same about Ubisoft.


I am not obsessed with it mate, really that is actually a very minor point, for what I care they could brag all they want if they made great games,
however I think if you are getting emails from Square Enix you have obviously opted in to a private mailing list for them mate, personally that is a different situation to all of the public theatrics from Ubisoft documented earlier in this thread, such as those speeches to the media about how creative and great Ubisoft is, the "We Are Ubisoft" circus on the Facebook, Yves making his big tragic melodrama at the previous E3 and so on lol

you may say that this is merely because Ubisoft are under threat and are thus making a scene to try (and fail) to curry the public support, but they do have a history of inappropriately smelling their own farts like that, I for sure remember for example when they ditched paper manuals for their games to cut costs and tried to spin it as a majorly innovative charitable move to save the environment and the rainforest, it was quite laughable, or when they gave into pressure and did away with their Draconian DRM (don't forget that they were the first big publisher to force Draconian online DRM on all of their games, an extremely anti-consumer move) they tried to sell it as a grand gesture for the paying customer when in fact they were merely pulling the knife out of their own victims whom they had stabbed with the Draconian DRM lol

Cleave said:
By the way I've mentioned three games, Child of Light, Valiant Hearts and Grow Home. What Square Enix games are you thinking about? I'm not trying to get into an argument, in all fairness I can't think of any game like the ones I've mentioned published by Square Enix (but I may be missing something here).


Square Enix took a lot of risks on niche or otherwise dodgy projects in recent years mate, check stuff like Bravely Default, Life Is Strange, I am Satsuma, Murdered Soul Suspect, Sleeping Dogs and the like, also check that Square Enix Collective they recently launched to give a platform to indie developers which is already getting several weird and wacky indie games on the road, they even opened up some of their own old franchises for indie developers to use which is a very unorthodox thing to do lol

Cleave said:
I understand you have a chip on your shoulder (for the record I'm not saying you're wrong about that, quite frankly I'm far from being pleased myself) but thinking Square Enix or EA are any better would be a mistake.


mate there are only so many ways I can say or rephrase it, I will have a hard time to put it in plainer English than I already have that I really do not think Square Enix or EA are better than Ubisoft is, they also have many scandals and stupid moments to take to task, I am merely pointing out that Ubisoft in turn is equally not any better than they are and it is not as unique or special as it tries to fool people into thinking it is lol


Not to nitpick put Square Enix did publish Life is Strange, Sleeping Dogs and Murdered Soul Suspect whereas Valiant Hearts was developed by Ubisoft Montpellier, Child of Light by  Ubisoft Montreal and Grow Home by Ubisoft Reflections.

Developing a game takes a little more effort than just publishing it.

In any case "mate" I'm not going to get into the PR bull that big companies keep slinging because they have whole departments devoted to that stuff and blowing smoke is what those people do best and if you're getting offended or riled up by the nonsense they spin I'd suggest staying away from their facebook pages.

In plain English, you are sporting a banner supporting Vivendi and clearly you seem to be wishing to see Ubisoft burn and that's no skin off my back but if you expect things to actually improve in the process I'm afraid that you are sorely mistaken. If you don't expect things to get better that's ok, after all some people just want to watch the world burn.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 17, 2017 12:07 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 00:10, 17 Jun 2017.

Cleave said:
some people just want to watch the world burn.
That's it Cleave

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Walterwin Mitty
posted June 17, 2017 12:50 AM

Cleave said:
Not to nitpick put Square Enix did publish Life is Strange, Sleeping Dogs and Murdered Soul Suspect whereas Valiant Hearts was developed by Ubisoft Montpellier, Child of Light by  Ubisoft Montreal and Grow Home by Ubisoft Reflections.

Developing a game takes a little more effort than just publishing it.


it is pretty much to nitpick IMO if I would be honest, it does not really make any difference in terms of effort or risk or anything else if a particular team or studio happens to be an owned subsidiary of a publisher or not, in most cases the publisher still has to greenlight the game, guide it along and pay the team one way or the other, actually it is often more effort and difficulty to wrangle about an external developer than not lol

anyway for sure credit to them for creating a couple of offbeat games over the years but at the end of the day they are a massive corporation with over 10,000 employees and god knows how many studios, thousands more people than even most other megapublishers including Square Enix and even EA, one has to give them something to do, it would honestly be a big negligence on their part if none of their thousands of employees were able to make anything creative like that because they have some pretty gargantuan resources at the disposal lol

Cleave said:
In any case "mate" I'm not going to get into the PR bull that big companies keep slinging because they have whole departments devoted to that stuff and blowing smoke is what those people do best and if you're getting offended or riled up by the nonsense they spin I'd suggest staying away from their facebook pages.


for my share it is not valuable to shift the tone of a debate to a personal matter because that can be uninteresting and fallacious, but you must bear in mind you are the one who has been pressing the point to me about the bragging and spin to quiz me and tell me that I am obsessed etc for making a mere brief mention of it, when again I politely clarify a second time that I do not really care much about this insignificant factor, I find it more funny and comedic than anything else because it falls flat on the face as a tryhard slapstick attempt to rally the public behind them lol

Cleave said:
In plain English, you are sporting a banner supporting Vivendi and clearly you seem to be wishing to see Ubisoft burn and that's no skin off my back but if you expect things to actually improve in the process I'm afraid that you are sorely mistaken. If you don't expect things to get better that's ok, after all some people just want to watch the world burn.


mate bear in mind that none of us have any nasty prejudice against Ubisoft for an unfair or irrational reason, we are merely random consumers in the market whom Yves and his company has burned with bad products and bad faith to squander a favourite series of ours into the dirt, not many of us are Mother Teresa to selflessly forgive and forget and we know for a fact that Ubisoft cannot create a good Heroes game, so of course it is logical that we are going to be pleased if they will get some comeuppance, it may not be an objective matter but it is fair and square lol

we know that Ubisoft are a bad publisher, in the best case scenario Vivendi might surprise you and actually turn out to be a good publisher, in the case that you and many others validly expect they will be interchangeable or worse with Ubisoft, but there is literally no downside whatsoever for me personally if Vivendi take over because if they are good, I will care more about future Heroes games, if they are bad, I will care as much the same amount as I do now (not at all), and either way I will get a bit of revenge against Yves and Erwin for wasting my time and money, so that is why I have my tongue in cheek banner, Salut Vivendi cheers lol
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Cleave
Cleave


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Raging Blood
posted June 17, 2017 12:00 PM

bloodsucker said:
Cleave said:
some people just want to watch the world burn.
That's it Cleave



Thanks for the link.

Here is the actual quote I've been thinking about.

verriker said:
in the best case scenario Vivendi might surprise you and actually turn out to be a good publisher


Never going to happen.

That is not what they do whether they're buying TV channels or game companies. They come up with nice promises and they do the exact opposite (I brought up the example of Canal + earlier, don't take my word for it look it up).

Sorry but their record is ghastly to say the least and it took a lot (and I mean a lot) of money for Activision Blizzard to break free from their nefarious influence.

As far as getting personal I wasn't trying to offend you mate, all I wanted was to set the record straight when it comes to big publishers and even bigger multinational conglomerates like Vivendi Universal.

By the way on a lighter note let me point out that in French "salut" can be used to greet someone but also to take your leave so it's both "hi" and "bye" which means that your banner can actually work both ways.
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