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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 19, 2016 04:18 PM |
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blizzardman said:
He's not an agent of ISIS. He's not on pay or contract or even a handshake. He was not affiliated with them in anyway. He was a security guard.
Not really true, he WAS on contract, as ISIS called its followers to strike gays wherever they are, during the Ramadan period, and is official.
If you are picky and look for an administrative contract like the one you get with your boss at your job, of course it isn't that kind of contract, yet there are strong ties; first because they share same values and ideas, secondly because they fully agree on how to deal with. And last, because ISIS itself claimed the action, while the killer officially expressed his allegiance, by 5 times.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 19, 2016 04:38 PM |
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Yes, Sal's right on this one. The Nazi comparison is flawed because this isnt a structure operating under orthodox military hierarchy, there is no paperwork, there are no official titles. There are autonomous cells or followers taking initiative. If you seek a traditional network you wont find one because that's not how they operate, the ideology is the network.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 19, 2016 05:56 PM |
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We need less gun control so people are able to defend themselves against criminals. Orlando would not have happened if the gays were armed.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted June 19, 2016 06:41 PM |
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But they were armed tho, no man can be caught off-guard when they have their trusty meat hammers dangling between their legs. On a serious note there'd be far less dead if the victims were as motivated in defending themselves and their fellow man as much as the attacker was in trying to end them.
I mean here in England one of our MPs was just shot dead last week, and the first reaction of the locals was to impede the attacker's escape, 75yr old was put in the hospital for severe stab wounds, but the mentality is what counts.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 19, 2016 07:05 PM |
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artu said:
Yes, Sal's right on this one. The Nazi comparison is flawed because this isnt a structure operating under orthodox military hierarchy, there is no paperwork, there are no official titles. There are autonomous cells or followers taking initiative. If you seek a traditional network you wont find one because that's not how they operate, the ideology is the network.
No its not all the same, but do you understand what it is that I'm saying? A guy from some rural town could be a Nazi and commit violence and some guy in Orlando could be a radical Islamist and commit violence. Theyre both American citizens. How can you declare war on one of your own citizens? The nightclub victims were killed by an AMERICAN. An American who was exercising his 2nd amendment right to rise up against his oppressors. Looks like it doesn't work out so well in practice. Who would think making each individual their own deity of justice could turn out badly?
ISIS and neonazism essentially follow the same mold anyway. One of them sprouted in Iraq and the one in Europe, but if you took a white supremicist and gave him a tan and raised him in Iraq as an Arab he would be ISIS and hate the West, or if you took a radical Muslim and raised him in the US and slapped some pink skin on him, he would be a white supremicist that hates minorities. Mountain Lion and Jaguar. Same animal. Different continent.
White supremicists are currently attacking Americans more frequently.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted June 19, 2016 07:13 PM |
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Meh. You people shoving in possibilities as facts. Nobody can be sure if more or less gun control would've changed things for the better, or worse.
Better gun control does bring less death overall per year, doesn't mean that it's true in every case though. Life is complex like that. Stop pushing ideological package deals, and stop taking them from politicians and such. Take what's good, discard what's bad, and when someone cannot do that, explain to them all the variations of life, or lift your middle finger at them.
Also, analyze details : A cop was at the scene but didn't prevent him from getting in. Maybe a lack of bullets to shoot back. Maybe he wasn't really the courageous type ( few are ). Maybe he told himself it wasn't worth it to possibly lose his life to defend gays. Either way, the gunman got in and shot with his assault rifle type ( any gun held with both hands is excessively big just for self defense ). The music was so loud that it took many bullets before people in the back understood they were shot at.
IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE, gun control would've helped, because the shooter wouldn't have had as many bullets to shoot per clip and such ease to reload. And gun control would help in more than 50 % of the cases too.
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blizzardman
Known Hero
Gay as an Easter Basket
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posted June 19, 2016 08:12 PM |
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If you needed proof, in the mathematical sense of the word, that something shouldn't be allowed, then you can't prove that citizens shouldn't own their own nuclear silos. Even if you did it once, and the world was destroyed and had to be rebuilt, to say that it will happen again would be to hypothesize, ergo it is not proven until it happens, but just because it happens a 2nd time is not to say that it will happen again. The world's biggest financial industry is insurance, and that industry is constructed entirely around the intangible realm of the hypothetical, which weigh in on potential future scenarios of the universe that have not occurred yet, and might never occur.
So if you want to live your life off of proofs, then good luck.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 19, 2016 08:24 PM |
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If you can access your old account again, there is no need to post under the temporary one, blizzardboy.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 19, 2016 08:28 PM |
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2 people agreeing each other make their arguments stronger. 
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted June 20, 2016 02:37 AM |
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To understand gun control better, you have to understand what someone on the attack does, and what someone defending others does.
To defend gun attacks, you need a gun yourself. The thing is, you never know when it's gonna happen. It might happen once per 3 years. You might carry a gun for 20 years and never get to use it. Because it takes such a long time, you will have to carry a small firearm. You can't walk around with an assault rifle all that time. Not going to happen.
When you decide to attack though, you get the biggest gun, and a second one, and a third one, with plenty of ammunition and anything else you can carry, then attack whatever it is you want to attack.
What this means is the stuff gun shops sells better than what those on the defensive carry ends up advantaging the terrorist in the offensive most of the time. They should only sell handguns.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 20, 2016 01:46 PM |
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if people want to kill for whatever reason, you really can't stop them; but only possibly slow them down in their goals. if guns are gone, you'll have bombs instead. and bombs don't aim for specific people. at least with guns, collateral damage is lower.
then there's chemical agents to think about. chlorine gas is easy to make, and can snow groups of people up just as easy(if not more efficiently) than a gun can.
gun control won't stop people killing one another; especially in the states. that's like saying "controlling wolf population in the woods, can keep you from getting killed in the woods". you'll still have bears, poisonous snakes, and whatever else; any of which can kill you. what are you going to do, ban everything just because it is used to kill?
consider the prohibition era in the states: they tried banning alcohol. that didn't work, did it? people still got drunk, because THEY WANTED TO.
as long as people WANT to do something, they'll FIND a way to do it.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 20, 2016 02:33 PM |
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fred79 said:
as long as people WANT to do something, they'll FIND a way to do it.
All I can say is this: Woodclub.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 20, 2016 04:06 PM |
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The Obama administration says it will be releasing the 911 calls of the Orlando shooter. But only after scrubing all references to Islam and ISIS.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/20/fbi-to-release-partial-transcript-between-orlando-nightclub-gunman-and-police.html
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 20, 2016 04:12 PM |
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The european chilliness is spreading.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted June 20, 2016 04:14 PM |
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fred79 said:
at least with guns, collateral damage is lower.
Then why did terrorists recently switch their tactics, from bombs to just AK47's with tons of ammo? They found out they can kill way more with a gun before they die than with a bomb.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted June 20, 2016 04:25 PM |
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Again while there's an acceptable argument that they're driven by some common ideology/creed, there's no 'tactics' or strategy when it comes to this, getting a command to kill homos is not the same as a proper chain of command with well laid out plans of attack and modes of attack. The guy probably relied on the most convenient and effective weapons he could get his hands on, sure you can make bombs pretty easily, but handling them and relying on them is a whole different thing.
The guy in Orlando had explosives strapped to him too, they were either not detonated or simply failed to go off.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 21, 2016 01:52 AM |
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Basically, if you're some guy that looks up hate material on an internet browser, and you commit a crime, it means the United States military is allowed to treat you like an enemy combatant in a state of war. That is what Elodin and a few other people are saying the generation needs to "learn".
The internet isn't a country. People need to get used to this idea because it isn't going to go away. Maybe this is the hard way of getting people to learn that nationality is an increasingly meaningless concept anyway. Two people can never meet each other or even communicate with words on the internet, but can fuse into a loosely common ideology just by reading the same material, and can have exceedingly more in common with each other than their next door neighbors who they might never speak to. This is life now, and it's only going to become more and more true.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 21, 2016 02:01 AM |
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But this is exactly what some people fight for, that nationality does not become a meaningless concept, but a conviction implying national responsibility, belief in unique values and pride about your country history and achievements.
This terrorist wasn't american, in the moment you fight your own country, you lose that privilege.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 21, 2016 02:07 AM |
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I don't even know why we need police stations anymore. You've successfully defined every criminal as an enemy combatant. Get rid of them if they're hogging up space on the payroll. Just give fred a rael gun a box of chocolate and some beer and let him get busy painting the streets in the blood of traitors. You can apparently use the military as an all-purpose cleaner.
If you want to go back in time to another state that so liberally and loosely reinterpreted somebody as a criminal or a traitor of the state, you could find it in Stalinist Russia.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 21, 2016 02:39 AM |
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I didn't define anything, its you who insist on words, I have no idea why.
I don't care how we name it.
Was just replying to the nationality meaningless. Someone which offers allegiance to another state/organization and harms in the name of aforementioned state/organization is punished by law, this exists in every constitution. In France it is 30 years jail and, until 1980, deprivation of nationality.
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Era II mods and utilities
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