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JollyJoker
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posted November 02, 2017 10:35 AM |
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Salamandre said:
yeah great contribution as usual, JJ. Just a remind, is not because you happen to think exactly same think as other poster that you have some strengthened point. And do not make me quote his comments more than necessary, you know very well he did that and now playing aggressive to shift the problem. Deja vu.
Go ahead, quote. Because I know very well he did NOT do that. And I'm not aggressive, I'm disdainful. You don't need to read things into posts, we all know your attitude, ugly as it is.
Radical opinions tend to hijack issues and polarize opinions, by denying every moderate, thought-out, well-measured and fitting compromise/reaction. It's always either death or glory, and it doesn't help that people always try to reduce and devalue positions by pushing them into the most radical corner possible, thereby debunking their points.
Everyone is probably guilty of that, including myself - but if you don't want to be put in the fascist corner, you should probably rethink your lines of arguing.
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Salamandre
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posted November 02, 2017 11:05 AM |
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Oh yeah, was waiting for Goldwin point. Quite ironic seeing that fascism is probably genetic in this case, as the only one who want to shut arguments here is you. You talk about moderate, care to give us an example of moderate immigration and working politics, not some hippie ideal like yours?
We talk about a religious ideology which seeks our destruction. An ideology spanning all corners of the world and is increasingly becoming an issue in line with a growing Muslim population - this is certainly the case in Europe. Young Muslims increasingly turn to religion rather than embracing Western secularism, Islamic superiority and hatred towards unbelievers is freely preached in mosques, more than a million "refugees" welcomed by irresponsible and arrogant Merkel without any vetting (80% of which had no papers at all).
Trump is not blind - he is aware what is happening in Europe. If the current less than 1% of US Muslims are producing enough Jihadists to take the price for the highest number of terror casualties, it is only common sense to take measures aimed at limiting the number of immigrants from terror hotspots.
So stop the crap about being moderate, we followed the cult of diversity ideology for decades and now we have terror attacks on a weekly base while no valid solution is proposed, but only worse ones. Only a dumb person would still fall for such narrative.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 02, 2017 11:51 AM |
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It's like you are trying to be "case by example" to what Blizz is talking about, where as he says jihadist terrorist attacks are the least of America's problems statistically and the ones who commit such attacks are a small portion of unstable people who commit similar crimes, you turn things into an epic battle of civilizations, the stance he calls "us and them."
Islam and assimilation is a real issue, of course. There are more Muslim immigrants who are in conflict with the values of their new countries compared to, say, Brazilian immigrants. But not the way you put it. The attacks are sensational but they don't have the magnitude that you attach to them. This was exactly what Blizz complained about in the first place. While you claim he dodges the issue, you miss out that he sees the broader issue in your reaction and the likes of it.
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Salamandre
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posted November 02, 2017 12:14 PM |
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artu, you are making up my response then way you need. I would have zero problems if BB simply said what you claim there. It is the context which I considered to be a caricature, and my post specified we can caricature both sides. In that context he specifies bigots will judge people based on geographic location (racism) then he puts aside with the white baby boomer who went on a mass shooting. And as conclusion, he draws a sarcastic comment about the lone Uzbek not being a danger, compared to the white guy. Then this percentage issue between terrorism and home crime is a non sense, as home crime is not issued from a specific politic and ideology, while terrorism IS.
Later he considers that Uzbeks have better ethics values than most Americans. Note that he didn't say "some Uzbeks have better ethic values than some Americans", in which case I would have nothing to object, his statement is that all Uzbeks are somehow better than most Americans. What I criticize is the double standard you use guys, is deeply dishonest and biased beyond possible. If I switch that phrase and say "French have better ethic values than most -let's say- Algerians", you all would charge me and go for a standard lynching as you love so much. Guess what, you don't like the mirror I put in front of you.
Ben Shapiro did lately an interesting and fair analysis on the double standard and terrorism issues. Watch it if interested to other opinions.
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artu
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posted November 02, 2017 12:26 PM |
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Do you honestly think that I'm lynching you or trying to get the crowd on my back when I argue with you, Sal?
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Salamandre
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posted November 02, 2017 12:30 PM |
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Oh, it was rather sarcastic. What I mean is that there is always the full pack coming together to defend same ideology, no matter the thread. Now waiting for Minion then Verriker, without them jumping in I feel lonely and ignored.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 02, 2017 12:59 PM |
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See, I'm right; Salamandre can indeed rant just fine without abusing other people's posts. 
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artu
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posted November 02, 2017 12:59 PM |
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Well, as I already mentioned before, me, Blizz, Minion, Verriker, JJ, etc are not ideological twins. We may have in common to detect a certain populist right-wing rhetoric and object to that but in all of our common ground, it is not us who are seeing things through the filters of ideological bias. Actually, the reason we can find that common ground easily while objecting to you is exactly because you are the one walking the marginal line. (Don't get me wrong, I don't object to you because your opinions are marginal, a marginal opinion can also be a perfectly correct one, I just don't think that is the case here.) I mean, I'm like the most alert and "intolerant" person when it comes to political/radical Islam you can find in this place. Living in Turkey, I'm annoyed and tempered by its ramifications on a daily scale you can't begin to imagine. But even to me, some of your reactions seem way over the edge. And the reason this alt-right crap worries me is because, it can now get under the skin of people like you. I remember my early days here trying to make my H3 mod, you were the most helpful person to a complete stranger, you are not some xenophobic lunatic with anger issues. And if people like you can be attracted to the rhetoric of Trump or the National Front, then, it means there is a very big social issue here. But that's how far-right movements always prevail anyway, they grow bold under circumstances that turn otherwise peaceful people into very reactionary ones. The issues are not imaginary of course but that doesn't justify all the reactions against them.
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Salamandre
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posted November 02, 2017 02:06 PM |
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My opinions are marginal, what kind of joke this is? My opinions are reflected by each year polls across central and east Europe, Russia, by Trump election, by Brexit, by daily actuality - what about Fox news as beating all ratings for 190 consecutive months while basically saying same as me?
It's your opinions guys which are parroted only by a minority, which happens to be the mainstream media therefore you get the feeling you have the upper hand. I already addressed this false narrative about populism, you people advocate chaotic and uncontrolled cultures melting -we see the result, then when people naturally fight back this modern non sense, you resort to slogans as "xenophobia" or feelings as "being ugly" then dismiss the whole discussion. I don't care about your feelings, is a civilization issue indeed.
And is not that I'm attracted by Trump's rhetoric, is yours which I find totally disconnected from reality and destructive -I witnessed 20 years of dramatic downfall in France, saw it with MY eyes. I prefer Trump by elimination.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 02, 2017 02:10 PM |
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You are right, and the Brits are right as well.
We should have never allowed immigrants from Eastern European countries like Romania to enter civilized countries like France and Germany.
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Salamandre
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posted November 02, 2017 02:14 PM |
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Well if you think that hits my feelings, you are wrong. I consider a huge privilege to be accepted by French, and if they didn't, I would not whine about being discriminated and simply leave. Citizenship gives additional rights and I have no problem with that.
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artu
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posted November 02, 2017 02:15 PM |
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1- Not everybody who voted for Brexit or Trump is supporting your opinions word by word.
2- Trump's rhetoric, no matter how many people voted for him, is indeed marginal. Majority can shift to extremes, although it usually doesn't last long.
3- Writing "many Americans either don't know or refuse to accept that Islamic terrorism is a small fraction of 1% of homicides. And yes, there is a commonality between random mass shootings and these religiously motivated acts, since under the surface almost all of these people are severely disturbed. ISIS just gives some people an outlet to act out" is not to "advocate chaotic and uncontrolled cultures melting."
4- Your opinions are marginal exactly because of such arbitrary jumps you continuously make. You are the emotional one with the "feelings." You are reactionary to the point of illogical.
P.S. Just the other day, I was watching a stand-up comedian from Britain and his joke about the Brexit was that "of course, they were fed up with all these Romanians taking all the jobs from the Polish." So, please don't come up with "the immigration issue is only about Islam" argument. That is how you see it, not all Brexit voters.
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Salamandre
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posted November 02, 2017 02:51 PM |
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Well, its you who limit my opinions to immigration obsession, while all I do is answering to comments about it which I find arguable. Actually I have a tons of other issues with EU bureaucratic structure which need to be addressed, about sovereignty and identity as well, but as you guys never make a thread about, I am too lazy to make one or not interested.
Don't worry, I don't spend all day chewing alt-right manifestos, which btw, when is really the case and not a scam, I fight in same way I fight the other side.
Also:
artu said:
And if people like you can be attracted to the rhetoric of Trump or the National Front, then, it means there is a very big social issue here. But that's how far-right movements always prevail anyway, they grow bold under circumstances that turn otherwise peaceful people into very reactionary ones.
I am not sure you know the Front National rhetoric, I am amused to read that your main perception of such voter is as being xenophobe - me remembering that it is the socialists who made the laws preventing me in my early years to work in France, so I had to resort to individuals helping me, which later proved to be FN voters. Actually the musical association I am artistic coordinator of, and which has as goal to promote and financially help students from east countries, is composed from people voting FN, the wo-hoo xenophobic and alt right evil. Of course you guys will label anyone complaining about Islam interference as "xenophobic" while totally skipping the fact that there are no complaints about the other millions of foreigners and also, the backbone is not about BEING foreigner. At best you could define as Islamophobic, which is at least arguable, leaving the "moral" taboo. But that would require some honesty, isn't it?
The difference between me and you is that I consume both sides information - left and right, not having the choice. If you listen to only one of them, you risk to end biased and factually not correct, it is actually very hard to get a proper information. As about Trump, you guys are offended by "grab by the pussy" style of things, while that leaves me plain cold, I've heard worse from people who are perfectly sane and innocent - if you only knew all the mouth running perverts evolving in arts circles while not even being able to get a decent boner. He certainly has some issues with dumb tweeting forth and back, but so far I see nothing wrong, at the levels which matter.
We are in the wrong thread, however.
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artu
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posted November 02, 2017 03:12 PM |
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Nope, I also read and watch both sides, I just don't sugarcoat Trump or Le Pen in my head only because I don't like Islam. And I probably dislike it much more than you do.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 02, 2017 03:51 PM |
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True for me as well. I dislike all of the so called "big" religions and their commandments and rules and laws, especially when they are discriminating, but none are worse than the hypocrites and the pretenders, and that are those who have god and Jesus on their lips, love and forgiveness, and love thy neighbor, and what they preach is hate, bias and ignorance.
I could continue, how I dislike this kind of false camaraderie, when people appeal to a common element, say, "Us Germans", "Us Christians" and so on in order to create rifts and trenches and fabricate a common interest that has to be defended against some onslaught. We have had this bollocks - still have it, actually.
First and foremost we are all humans. And a suicide bomber isn't a terrorist, but a very ill or very desperate person who has been misled. Remember, we think that people with suicidal tendencies are mentally ill.
However, there are other reasons. Violence will bear more violence, and there have been more than enough wars going on in the Near East and in some parts of Africa, and I don't doubt that there are many very desperate persons who lost beloved people and who desperately want to make sense of their personal disaster und find someone to blame.
That has nothing to do with having a certain religion.
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OhforfSake
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posted November 02, 2017 06:56 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
The statistical percentage of homicides in the US by terrorism is now a slightly higher small fraction of 1%.
[...] who mowed down 5 times as many people in Las Vegas earlier this month. The real threat are those gosh darn Uzbeks.
I think it makes more sense to compare the amount of criminals who are within the scope of this kind of thing, than the amount of victims.
Obviously it won't change that Americans are much more dangerous for Americans, but unless the subjects are related, each case should be treated independently in my opinion.
I.e. same symptoms, different reasons.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 03, 2017 08:45 AM |
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Trump is repeatedly calling for the death penalty. Saipov is being charged with federal crimes, which means New York state's ban on capital punishment can be nullified.
So now they want to martyr him for other disturbed people 
I'm not sure why a president has any business weighing in on what is suppose to be an objective legal process, but I'm not even slightly surprised. I imagine the recalcitrant bronze agers will succeed in injecting him and the story will spread in all sorts of propaganda material.
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Kipshasz
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posted November 03, 2017 10:27 AM |
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Blizzardboy said:
Trump is repeatedly calling for the death penalty. Saipov is being charged with federal crimes, which means New York state's ban on capital punishment can be nullified.
So now they want to martyr him for other disturbed people
I'm not sure why a president has any business weighing in on what is suppose to be an objective legal process, but I'm not even slightly surprised. I imagine the recalcitrant bronze agers will succeed in injecting him and the story will spread in all sorts of propaganda material.
Look at it this way, if killary would be president, she'd urge to nuke Tashkent.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 03, 2017 11:22 AM |
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Yeah, sure, and she eats little babies for breakfast.
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Trogdor
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posted November 03, 2017 01:29 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
So now they want to martyr him for other disturbed people
I'm not sure why a president has any business weighing in on what is suppose to be an objective legal process, but I'm not even slightly surprised. I imagine the recalcitrant bronze agers will succeed in injecting him and the story will spread in all sorts of propaganda material.
All giving him the injection will do is make him a hero for ISIS, or any other Islamic terrorist organisation. Instead, we should just let the *BLEEP*wad rot to death in his cramped prison confinement. No virgins for him in the afterlife.
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This thread is pages long: 
