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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 17, 2018 11:15 AM |
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Edited by artu at 11:18, 17 Feb 2018.
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Salamandre said:
Well, you said it yourself, look 50 years back, there were no such close shootings, while gun rights still there. It's maybe time to look towards nuclear family destruction, it now lacks the structure and the security it once had, then there is also the destruction of friendship circles partially due to technology madness which doesn't bring anymore people physically together. You add to this a school "teaching" more about your individual "freedom and rights" than culture and history, and you get a selfish and narcissistic society where anyone feels HIS desire has to be satisfied, be it violent or not. There are studies showing that the vast majority of crimes are perpetrated by people from fatherless families, yet no one is discussing that matter, maybe because a homogeneous and disciplined family is less likely to be controlled and will be autonomous in its choices, its inner education does not require the state to put its nose and tell them what matters and how to behave, rather unpleasant and anti-capitalistic.
When people want to kill, they will find a way, we saw that in Europe many times. Sure, if weapons are easy to find, that will not help preventing the violence, but it seems to me than rather than removing the tools - which incidentally are part of a constitution in this case-, we should have a closer look at the whole picture and try to find the causes of the violent frustration causing the need to hurt.
Yes, gun rights were there but it was not some shiny market trying to sell everybody military grade weapons with its advertising, propaganda, magazines... I am not for banning ownership completely but the phenomenon in the U.S. is unique, right to own guns isn't, it's legal here, too, for instance, it's legal in Germany, U.K., so many places... Similarly, there are fatherless children all over the world, it can be some secondary factor of course but I think to understand this correctly one must focus on what is unique in the U.S.. The combination of many factors for sure, very loose gun laws, gangs, romantization of both individualism and capitalism resulting in a winner/loser culture (and to be a loser is unforgivable), there is also "getting used to it," when something repeats in a society, more people tend to imitate it. I'd really like to read a professional study on these mass shootings, not even an article, a book if there is any.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 17, 2018 11:24 AM |
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artu said:
Yes, gun rights were there but it was not some shiny market trying to sell everybody military grade weapons with its advertising, propaganda, magazines...
Looks like it has no impact at all.
As I see the article asks for membership if you visit it a second time, so I will add THIS one, which basically says same thing.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 17, 2018 12:02 PM |
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If you READ the article, though:
Quote:
But gun purchases, as measured by FBI firearm background checks, are at historic highs. And data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms shows that gun manufacturers are churning out record numbers of guns. Many gun rights advocates argue that these figures mean that the overall number of gun owners is growing: If more guns are being sold, more people must be owning guns.
But the declining rates of gun ownership across three major national surveys suggest a different explanation: that most of the rise in gun purchases is driven by existing gun owners stocking up, rather than by people buying their first gun. A Washington Post analysis last year found that the average American gun owner now owns approximately eight firearms, double the number in the 1990s.
Other research bears this out as well. A 2004 survey found that the average gun owner owned 6.6 firearms, and that the top 3 percent of gun owners owned about 25 guns each. More recently, a CBS News poll taken in March of this year found that roughly 1 in 5 gun owners owned 10 guns or more.
So it's the same thing with weapons in the US as with basically everything else comparable, say, guitars. There are those who aren't interested. But those who ARE interested are also "collectors".
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 17, 2018 12:04 PM |
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yes I read, it also says:
Quote:
But survey data showing declining gun ownership suggests that the NRA has been successful largely by channeling the energy and intensity of an existing gun-owning base, rather than by broadening that base and bringing more supporters into the fold. If declines in ownership continue, the group could have a hard time replicating recent successes in the coming decades.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted February 17, 2018 12:29 PM |
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Not sure if the numbers have been brought up before (I didn't read everything), but the American population is about 4.5% of the total world population. Despite this, however, around 48% of all privately owned firearms across the world are in the possession of Americans. That's a rather ... skewed number if you ask me.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 17, 2018 07:13 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 19:14, 17 Feb 2018.
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Maurice said:
Not sure if the numbers have been brought up before (I didn't read everything), but the American population is about 4.5% of the total world population. Despite this, however, around 48% of all privately owned firearms across the world are in the possession of Americans. That's a rather ... skewed number if you ask me.
of course it is. we're also the most/last free nation(besides mostly lawless countries), so that hardly factors into anything. OF COURSE we're going to have the most privately owned firearms; it's not in anyone else's constitution, as far as i know. iraq has(had?) the most ak-47's personally owned in accordance with their number of households, because every household owned one to keep roving bands of rapists and bandits at bay after saddam was taken out of power. the only thing that puts us in the lead as far as gun ownership, is that many households own more than one firearm. handguns are much easier to keep, as well.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 18, 2018 12:16 AM |
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Edited by artu at 00:17, 18 Feb 2018.
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You are not more free than any other developed country's citizen. Besides, just examine your own stance closer, in general, you speak about how everybody is sheep and how "the establishment" controls everything, how freedom is a fairy tale. You do that, nobody else. When it comes to guns though, you suddenly switch to "land of the free, home of the brave."
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 18, 2018 12:39 AM |
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artu said:
You are not more free than any other developed country's citizen.
I beg to differ, they are the only country where all sides of the coin are revealed on mainstream, which is why I also follow passionately sometimes, a feeling I totally lost when watching or reading European news, where we know very well what we will never read or learn about.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 18, 2018 12:43 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 00:49, 18 Feb 2018.
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explain something to me, artu:
if nearly all of the gun violence in the u.s. is committed with ILLEGAL firearms, then just what difference do you think banning/removing/restricting LEGAL firearms will make?
you guys really aren't grasping what i've so blatantly pointed out to you. if you can't get the very basics, then how can any pro-gun person every attempt to communicate with you?
this REALLY SIMPLE comic, that i already posted, explains my stance PERFECTLY on owning firearms, and STILL you don't get it:
and you responded with:
artu said:
You jumped from revolt against government to criminality with that pictrue which is certainly wrong. When guns are not so widespread criminals also have less of them.
that graphic depicts ALL bad guys, not just your average gun criminals. are you telling me that you don't think the governments of the world contain criminality? after everything you've seen throughout history that proves otherwise?
did you forget the atf debacle, where they were having firearms illegally sold to CRIMINALS THEMSELVES(and not just your average criminal, but MEXICAN CARTELS, FFS)?
and you think that the literally MILLIONS OF DECENT, LAW ABIDING GUN OWNERS should suffer for what a TINY percentage of morons or the criminally inclined do? do you NOT understand the flawed logic in that? can you still not grasp the fact that these spree-killings only account for a TINY percentage of actual gun crime? and that these attacks were all committed in GUN-FREE zones? since we're going to keep posting graphics to better explain our position, here are a couple on gun-free zones:
besides all this, illegal drugs are readily available in the u.s., artu. are you telling me, that if they actually WERE able to remove all the legally-owned guns from the u.s., which could NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPEN, btw; that the cartels and drug gangs wouldn't switch to selling even MORE GUNS THAN THEY ALREADY DO ON THE STREETS? instead of having legal AND illegal guns on the street, you'd only have a lot more ILLEGAL guns everywhere. you guys REALLY don't get it. this is some basic, SIMPLE snow that you anti-gun people are NOT understanding.
now, i can start posting infographics and statistics to better prove my point; but i know they will only fall on deaf ears anyway. communicating with some of you is like talking to rocks, i swear to god.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 18, 2018 01:21 AM |
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There is a very broad frequency about how common an illegal thing get. When guns are such a routine part of the mainstream culture, of course, getting illegal guns for your average criminal would be too easy. It will even turn into a necessity considering his "occupation." Having rocket launchers is also illegal, are they that common though? Illegality and availability are different things. But I'm a little sick today and as I type I realize it's giving me a headache to think in English right now, so later...
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 18, 2018 01:39 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 02:02, 18 Feb 2018.
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here's some comics for you, since you're so fond of them. we can communicate that way, since i'm hurting your brain because i have near-infinitely more knowledge of this subject than you:
lol, your turn. 
and moreover, i've already stated in the first post on this shooting, how it was the FBI/school/local cops who failed to stop this from happening. i like how you anti-gun guys keep missing the obvious. they KNEW this guy was a threat, and did NOTHING to prevent him from doing what he did.
and what's even more, is this kid SAID he was a "professional school shooter" in social media, so ANYONE reading that could have done something to stop him; or alerted the appropriate authorities. the kids at that school THEMSELVES kept baiting him and saying how that's all he'd ever amount to: a school shooter. they were PUSHING this kid to do it. and now everyone's upset that he ACTUALLY DID WHAT HE WAS THREATENING TO DO, THAT OTHER KIDS AT THAT SCHOOL WERE BAITING HIM TO DO; AND THAT NO ONE WHO KNEW ALL OF THIS, AND WAS IN THE POSITION TO STOP HIM, ACTUALLY STOPPED HIM FROM DOING.
but no, GUNS are the issue. lol.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 18, 2018 07:33 AM |
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1- Having more technical information about guns doesnt give you any upper hand when discussing them as a social issue. You are right now like a drug addict bragging about how "he knows the good stuff." You literally LOVE guns and that love is part of a culture which makes some Americans so blind to the subject they resort to kindergarden level arguments such as above: "Good guys will be able to shoot baddies if we turn the country into an arsenal." Criminals and "good guys" exist everwhere, nobody else turns their country into an arsenal and guess what, the results are better everywhere else. Criminals don't start shooting everone else when there isn't a gun crazed environment to begin with. This is not an opinion, this is an observable fact. Do I have to write it like five more times, because all you do is ignoring this blatant fact and then keep repeating how you can't cross a point when your point had already been answered.
2- The issue is not banning gun ownership but regulating gun ownership in a way that it doesnt create the culture it does right now, which is obviously and extremely problematic in 21st century America. So any comic or argument referring to the Constitution (which, btw, had revolt with musketeers against tyrants in mind) is irrelevant.
3- Gun free zones are naturally not an efficient solution once guns spread like greek fire all over the country. That is like trying to cure cancer with a soap. People shouldn't be able to get their hands on semi-automatics that can kill dozens in a matter of minutes to begin with. Yes, you can stab or choke someone to death too, but you can't stab or choke 50 people to death unless 48 of them are quite suicidal! And regulating access to knives or your own hands is not an actual option to begin with, the other is. Why dont you defend having access to bio-chemical weapons, because there is no upside to it, same with the situation in U.S., it results in great loss of life and it has no upside what so ever.
4- And fred, dude, the only way you could ever hurt my brain is if you shoot at it. Get ahold of yourself buddy. 
Now I must return to my sour throat and achy head, thank you, later.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 18, 2018 08:05 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 08:14, 18 Feb 2018.
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artu said:
1- Having more technical information about guns doesnt give you any upper hand when discussing them as a social issue.
no, i have more knowledge of the entire subject and everything it encapsulates, and you refuse to acknowledge that; and even refuse to admit that i'm right and that i know what i'm talking about. when was the last time your country let you have guns, again? can't you be detained and tortured for whatever in your country?
artu said:
You are right now like a drug addict bragging about how "he knows the good stuff." You literally LOVE guns and that love is part of a culture which makes some Americans so blind to the subject they resort to kindergarden level arguments
no, i resorted to childish comics because you wouldn't even consider everything i had elaborated on before. face the facts, dude. americans, and gun owners in general, know more about the issues here than somebody from turkey. in turn, you'll most likely know more about turkey and it's intricacies, than i will. that's just basic logic; would you try and refute that?
artu said:
Criminals and "good guys" exist everwhere, nobody else turns their country into an arsenal and guess what, the results are better everywhere else.
better, like the 2015 terror attack in france that killed 130 people, or the 2011 norway attack that killed 68 people, or any of the other attacks that killed way more at one go, than ANY single u.s. gun attack? are you absolutely sure you want to go down that road?
question, what do ALL of these firearm attacks on unarmed civilians have in common? answer: they were all in places where people WEREN'T ARMED, AND SUPPOSEDLY SAFE.
artu said:
Criminals don't start shooting everone else when there isn't a gun crazed environment to begin with. This is not an opinion, this is an observable fact.
lol, see above. the more you blabber this nonsense, the more i realize you know almost nothing at all what you're talking about. and you're usually so well-read, artu. you're out of your league, here. you should just stop now and educate yourself before even attempting to form an opinion on this.
i'm not going to even bother reading the rest. i'm going to try not reading anything you or the other anti-gun guys post in this or any thread relating to firearms, but i can't promise anything because i feel compelled to post something that makes sense against the wave of stuff that doesn't.
understand, that we agree that not everyone needs to be armed. remember, that i also think not everyone needs to breed, either; among many other things.
lastly, i'll post this, just for some much-needed perspective for you:
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 18, 2018 08:37 AM |
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Fred, you do realize that it is also possible to own guns in Turkey, too, right? It is possible to own guns in most European countries just as well. But what kind of guns are on the market and in what manner they are sold is another issue. You have gas stations and malls selling bullets... Your norms about guns are extreme compared to any other country in the world.
You are a gun enthusiast and I am an outsider, this is an old subject here, I heard many pro-gun Americans, read their links, statistics, pdf studies, I also read anti-gun Americans, read their links, studies, articles etc. The synthesis I arrived at as an impartial person is that a complete gun ban is not the solution but the current situation which is now a cultural issue, can no way be summerized as "guns have nothing to do with the problem." And because your knowledge about the subject is the knowledge of an enthusiast rather than an observer, you resist to this, you don't want to acknowledge guns can be part of the problem to begin with.
Comparing radical Islamist attacks in Europe to the phenomenon in the U.S. also doesnt make much sense. And if it did, there will always be "soft spots" of opportunity, even if you arm every citizen to their teeth and let them go to concerts, beaches, festivals, malls equipped with AK-47's all the time. (But honestly, can you really imagine such a society?) You can not fight back such attacks through arming individuals, that's just not how they operate and in practicality, it is impossible to be ready all the time, in all the places. What matters is, on average, less people die of weapon violence anywhere in Europe compared to U.S. and the numbers are nowhere close. And guns as a pre-caution to terror attacks is not efficient at all, never has been, never will be.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 18, 2018 08:41 AM |
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artu said:
You have gas stations and malls selling bullets...
again, i have to stop here. i've never seen this anywhere, and i've never heard of it. i said educate yourself, not double down, lol. you couldn't have educated yourself in this short a time period. are you drunk or high or something? give me some explanation for this, man. 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 18, 2018 09:07 AM |
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I watched it on a documantery about gun culture in the U.S. a few years ago. You know how gas stations have these stores selling beer, groceries etc., the guy got out of his car, bought a box of bullets and went on his way, it was probably a Wallmart. Hard to recollect now that it's been a while.
And I know you read the rest, too, you cheater. 
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 18, 2018 09:10 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 09:12, 18 Feb 2018.
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no, i actually did stop reading, dude. i've literally never seen, or heard of, bullets being sold in gas stations OR malls. i have seen them at a walmart, though(and i've purchased ammo from them myself).
but seriously. are you intoxicated with any substance atm? i'm genuinely curious.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 18, 2018 09:20 AM |
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No fred, I have a cold and a very sour throat, so I'm perfectly sober. It's not even noon here ffs. Wallmart is a chain of malls, they can also be located next to gas stations, so what are you objecting to exactly?
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 18, 2018 09:22 AM |
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artu said:
Wallmart is a chain of malls
ok, you're obviously trolling me. i don't believe for a second that you actually believe this. there's just no way, man.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 18, 2018 09:29 AM |
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Edited by artu at 09:31, 18 Feb 2018.
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Fred, the guy stopped at the gas station, went into this big shopping center which I would call a mall, which could also be a Walmart store (how is it any different than a mall?) and bought a box of bullets. What would you define a Walmart as, if not a mall? I mean, you can say malls have many shops in them while a Walmart is one big store but other than that, they function the same, so what's the difference regarding the subject?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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This thread is pages long: 
