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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: mass shootings in the u.s.
Thread: mass shootings in the u.s. This thread is 42 pages long: 1 10 20 ... 27 28 29 30 31 ... 40 42 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2018 10:03 AM

The naked truth is, that a meaningful amount of freedom always carries a certain risk, especially with a high population density.

Everyone knows this, with freedom comes responsibility, and if we WANT a free society, then we must take responsibility to give everyone a reason to love this freedom - worldwide, because we are a global society. That's basically the idea of a free society - that everyone can take part and feels catered for.
This actually isn't the case, though.

The "cheap" solution is a tightening of security which basically means a reduction of general freedom (I described that in my post above).

Now, since we are not living in an ideal world and changes don't come instantaneous, there must be a compromise, where security is tightened WHERE NECESSARY, while working on elimination of social misery - giving people something to lose, would be the cynical description.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 20, 2018 10:42 AM

Fred, I think you overestimate "regular John" out there. It's like when two or three guys beat the crap out of a geek in a bus. There's like 20 other people there but they will NOT act and it's basic human psychology. They will act if someobody leads them or inspires them, and will remain passive otherwise.

Some story for a random killing spree. Sure, let's say teens are armed, but who would actually volunteer to go for a 1v1 with a guy holding an AR-15? most people would just GTFO and the surprised ones would die anyway, armed or not, because, as I stated before, the element of surprise is something you can't beat. And a guy entering a class room during lessons and pulling out an AR-15 surely has that.

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2018 12:57 PM

Doomforge said:
Sure, let's say teens are armed, but who would actually volunteer to go for a 1v1 with a guy holding an AR-15?


I would. if you were to scan the internet for video of legally armed civilians defending themselves from armed attacks, you'd find them. i even have some myself. ccw(concealed-carry weapons) holders actually USE their guns in defense all the time. do you know why? because they have the mindframe that they and the guns are needed in a hostile situation, and they train in that mindframe. just like i do.

that's not difficult to understand, by any means. but go ahead and argue with the others. i'm pretty much done at this point, because you guys refuse to get what i have layed out for hc repeatedly. what's sad is, i shouldn't even HAVE to do this. i shouldn't HAVE to point out the obvious, ALL THE GODDAMN TIME.

you(and the other anti-gun individuals here) should know that, any other pro-gun individual would have quit with you guys eons ago. i, on the other hand, actually care that people try to retain or build more common sense(no matter the subject), so i tend to go the extra mile to try and accomplish that. that i fail horribly, doesn't seem to disuade me until i become exasperated.

which i am now. you guys have fun arguing; i'm abandoning this thread and my useless attempts at reaching you all. for now, at least.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 20, 2018 01:26 PM

Idk fred, I didn't pay attention to all the replies here, I were just curious whether you actually consider human psychology. You know, there's a saying: you only know as much about you as it was tested. You may think you would storm in, guns blazing, and save the day - you may even fantasize about it in a heroic way, but people under heavy stress actually tend to act in a very unpredictable fashion. So unless you actually did it, I would refrain from saying "I would do this" " I would do that" with 100% certainity.

I know you take this gun stuff very personal, so keep in mind that this isn't meant to be patronizing. What I'm trying to say here fred is: it's generally wise to not put full trust in one's ability to control emotions in a life-threatening situation. It's something that people tested for ages and were often extremely surprised that they acted in a very different way than they expected to.

But it's not so bad, tho. It does make us more human. The opposite side, which lacks such barriers, usually gets uncomfortably lose to psychopathy.

If you wish to exit the thread, throw a fit and call everyone here stupid, well, that's your decision mate. If I were you, I'd cool down and return to the thread without putting your heart&soul into it. Emotions quickly turn such discussions into personal attacks, rants, fits, threats and trolling.

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2018 02:38 PM
Edited by fred79 at 15:50, 20 Feb 2018.

i was in the army, df. i was deployed to iraq 3 times. the first of which, we had regular mortar/rocket attacks. i used to sleep through them(i even have a picture someone took of me while i slept once, that i posted here years ago) if we had to take shelter, and if it was during the day, used to say, "missed me!" every time i would hear/feel one hit.

(edit: all of the rest was before i was in the army, except for the celfious thing, obviously. lol)

3 youths attempted to jump me once. after my stepbrother beat the hell out of the leader, the leader went under the seat of his car like he was getting a gun. my stepbrother and his friend took off, while i stood not 10 feet away and waited for him to stand back up. he produced nothing, and when he and his buddies thought they were going to jump me because i was all by my wittle self, i showed him the knife i had opened behind my back that i would have stuck in his belly if we weren't on camera(but we were). i'm pretty sure it was actually you who said, "no offense fred, but you're the last person i'd give a weapon to, let alone a gun", in the thread where i discussed that situation more in-depth.

when i was a kid, i asked some dude what time it was one night, because i didn't want to be out after curfew. he produced a gun because he thought i was going to mug him, and again, my stepbrother took off running. i just stood there and asked him for the time again.

celfious made a joke recently that he had broken into my house, and i(thinking he had seriously intruded into my house with some weird attempt to harm me) responded by telling him that it was a mistake, and to prepare himself because i was coming. at the time, i didn't know it was a joke. but i actually made a sweep of the house, armed with a gun.

the only time i've ever actually run from a threat, was when there were 7 kids on bikes coming after me(these same kids had put another buddy of mine in the hospital earlier that summer), and i was unarmed. i outran their bikes to my house, got inside, grabbed a butcher knife, and came back out to meet them, but they had already gone.

that's the kind of guy i am, in case you're wondering. i might have never faced a firefight, but you forget that i'm the kind of guy who'd rather go out in battle, than peacefully in my sleep.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 20, 2018 03:03 PM

Nice fred, but from description it sounds like you're a trained professional, or at least somewhat used to danger and life threatening situations. I'm OK with people like you having permission to use firearms, no prob. Thing is, the "average Joe" would probably be heavily traumatized after killing someone, even if he actually had the guts to pull the trigger. And there's a good chance panic would sweep him off his feet, make his hands shake, and so on.

My point is that a typical, let's say, "civilian" really isn't ready for an up-close heroism. Especially if they are still teenagers.

The notion of carrying a concealed weapon just to be able to shoot a random mass-killer in their school.. hmm..

Another problem I see here would be the chaos that would engulf such a school if people started shooting. OK, there's a fight. A guy picks up AR-15 and kills some kids in school. Some kids flee, some pick up their guns and go in, start shooting. Then, 1 minute later, other kids show up, assume the ones shooting are the offenders and a freaking gunfight starts. Since you were in the military, you probably know that lack of communication, chaos and alike are very likely to cause friendly fire incidents that in the end may cause more harm than just leaving the guy to the Police...

If I were to protect a house in the US, I wouldn't buy a shotgun. I'd buy a gas mask. Cause, who would expect to be bombed by pepper spray in a house? nobody In the one-out-of-100 scenario, taken straight out of a Hollywood movie, where you are awoken by noises at night and you have the time to arm up and shoot the unaware criminal, a gas attack would be way better anyway

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2018 03:42 PM
Edited by fred79 at 15:48, 20 Feb 2018.

Doomforge said:
Nice fred, but from description it sounds like you're a trained professional, or at least somewhat used to danger and life threatening situations. I'm OK with people like you having permission to use firearms, no prob. Thing is, the "average Joe" would probably be heavily traumatized after killing someone, even if he actually had the guts to pull the trigger. And there's a good chance panic would sweep him off his feet, make his hands shake, and so on.

My point is that a typical, let's say, "civilian" really isn't ready for an up-close heroism. Especially if they are still teenagers.

The notion of carrying a concealed weapon just to be able to shoot a random mass-killer in their school.. hmm..

Another problem I see here would be the chaos that would engulf such a school if people started shooting. OK, there's a fight. A guy picks up AR-15 and kills some kids in school. Some kids flee, some pick up their guns and go in, start shooting. Then, 1 minute later, other kids show up, assume the ones shooting are the offenders and a freaking gunfight starts. Since you were in the military, you probably know that lack of communication, chaos and alike are very likely to cause friendly fire incidents that in the end may cause more harm than just leaving the guy to the Police...


that's just it, many law-abiding citizens who have guns train themselves; you don't have to even BE a professional. i myself even go so far as to train to combat shock related to violence, by looking at photos of gore, and watching videos of people either chewed up or being murdered. i do this so that i am deadened to violence and what it causes, just so that i'll be mentally prepared in the off-chance of an actual attack. i do this not only for myself, but for the sake of my family; so if they become injured i can act and save their lives without being in shock of what's happening at the time. i've been trained medically in the army, too.

when i went to the hospital after one of my cousins got his leg ran over by a track vehicle, i was able to survey the mess that was left of his leg and foot without flinching or being off-put or even really effected; i was totally calm. being clinically detached in what could be a potentially traumatizing event, and having a clear head in a situation is something you can train yourself for. anyone can do it.

i've actually been hoping that i would be in the middle of a mass-attack, simply so that i could stop them and add to pro-gun press. the danger to me is immaterial; because there's a larger scope to the issue at hand. there are more lives to be saved and to keep safe, than simply the people being attacked.

also, i never said anything about KIDS owning/carrying guns. most of them lack the maturity and mentality to have such a responsibility. kids these days don't need even MORE power than people are already giving them. no, teachers and security guards/cops at the schools should own/train with/carry guns. and apparently, a sheriff in florida(albeit an overdramatic one) is setting up a program/funding to arm and educate teachers there. it's about time, i say.

as for the miscommunication or threat from cops entering an already hostile situation and not knowing who the gunman is, that can be worked out as well by having security passes issued and retained informationally just like with a more secure government building.

i was part of an atf/fbi/local police/homeland security mass-attack training op here at a mall. i played a victim, and i studied the attack and the response itself(because i remained hidden and observing through nearly all of it, taking notes to report on afterwards; which was part of our task as UNARMED victims). they're still training, and they're still learning, but they'll eventually get there. i want to note that, had i actually been ARMED and that had been a REAL mass attack, i could have snowing DESTROYED the attackers. i was upset when i was told beforehand that i wasn't allowed to actually ATTACK the threats(i made sure to clear up all the rules with those in charge before they set me loose on the op, lol), but i understood that the training was actually FOR the cops/fbi/atf/homeland security response. and really, those clowns desperately needed the training.

so that goes to show you that the people who would actually protect us if we are unarmed, aren't really prepared to, yet. we as civilians are better prepared than THEY are atm. the only reason why these attacks are happening successfully, is because they are happening in "safe" zones; which trained civilian gun owners/carriers are off-limits to. it's called a "safe zone" because law-abiding gun owners aren't allowed to carry there. see the irony?

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted February 20, 2018 03:54 PM

I was going to write something wicked out of pure spite for the obvious lack of wisdom, but whatever.

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2018 03:55 PM

Ebonheart said:
I was going to write something wicked out of pure spite for the obvious lack of wisdom, but whatever.


towards whom, in particular?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 20, 2018 03:59 PM

Fred, what I implied here was on more personal level. A typical victim of US mass shooting was just there mind his own business. In my opinion, whether those people had guns or not wouldn't matter, because they were surprised by a madman and just killed. Sure, we could argue (for the sake of argument) that IF one of the persons there was a trained gun-totting guy he/she might have stood a chance - but the point is, if ypu're surprised by such an event, a gun won't save you. You will get killed, end of story.

That's why I'm a gun doubter. If someone surprises you and has an intent of killing you, you will die. Sure, people can dream of pulling a Chuck Norris out of thin air and roundhouse kicking the criminal's gun away, but let's be honest here. Your chances are pretty much nonexistent. What should be done is preventing the whole situation from happening, not arming people to reduce the body bag count.

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2018 04:03 PM

but that's just my point. you can literally train your brain and body to react accordingly to minimize or eliminate a threat. if you are trained, sudden violence is MET with sudden violence, instead of you dying. you think that gunmen are going to organize and hit all the teachers beforehand? that's like hitting a police station or a gun store, lol. the gunman/men are going to lose before they do too much damage.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 20, 2018 04:08 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 16:13, 20 Feb 2018.

@doom, what you do is examining things from our perspective (unarmed, no constitutional right to arms, never trained into handling them etc etc). An armed citizen is not like having an umbrella, generally he has some training then he expects to overcome the surprise, that's WHY he is armed and without doubt he had already imagined what he would do in such situation (there is always a surprise element ofc, but he is not a green neither).

Is same when a martial arts trained guy find himself into a violent brawl. He will be surprised but his training and the discipline he acquired will help him adapt and properly answer much faster than the 300 pounds guy who barely can walk from his couch to fridge without a seizure.

Somehow it recalls me this hilarious movie scene

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2018 04:15 PM

Salamandre said:
Somehow it recalls me this hilarious movie scene


LOL.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted February 20, 2018 04:31 PM

Based on your own description, I'd say you've properly conditioned yourself to handle such violent outbursts a lot more than most people. The question is, though, for any random person carrying a gun: will they act and handle themselves in pretty much the same way, or is it more a "flight-or-die" type scenario, where they would try to flee instead of facing the attackers head-on, fearing to get killed should they choose to attack?

I don't fully understand your idea about information badges for when the police enters a volatile situation? Can you elaborate about what you mean with that?
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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2018 04:55 PM

@ maurice: that's why i'm in favor of mandatory gun training before ever buying a firearm. people have to pass a test to get a driver's license, why not for a gun? that's just common sense, man. that we don't have that as a mandatory thing, is retarded. you're setting people up for failure. it shouldn't be up to joe blow whether he is trained or not, because having a gun affects more people than just yourself; just like having a driver's license and a car does.

as for the security pass/badge, you make security cards that only school staff have, with their pictures on it. which is then uploaded to a system that the police have access to, so they can verify who's who. this security pass/badge works to operate electronicly-locked doors in the school, as well(which the police automatically have access to. they could have miniscule readers added to their typical and swat uniforms). school entrances and hallways could be rigged with cameras that have sound capabilities, that are monitored in a security room within schools(i mean, ffs, STORES have them, why not schools?), that have a direct lan line to the police. anything the security monitors see as threatening, they have a button that auto-locks all interior school doors, as well. on top of that, new safety drills for the students once the secure measures are in place. they already have fire drills, why not armed attack drills? they had atom-bomb drills in the 50's, ffs. of course it made no difference in actuality, but the kids might have felt more safe because of those nuke drills(though apparently not lewis black, lol). the difference with THESE safety drills, is they could actually save lives, with the other security measures in place. easy peasy. why STORES have security offices and SCHOOLS don't, is beyond me. that's just more common sense that somebody apparently didn't want to deal with, because "that means things are scaaaaaaarrrrry!".

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 20, 2018 05:58 PM
Edited by artu at 18:42, 20 Feb 2018.

Can everbody please remember this is about mass shootings, not about some revolver under your pillow in case a burgler sneaks in... We are talking about guns with the range and fire power that's capable of killing dozens in a matter of seconds. Does anybody really imagine the solution to such shootings, the school shootings for instance, is to arm 15 year-old teens with the same equipment and let them go to school like that each day, just in case? Have you ever been a teenager or were you born at 20 or something? I mean, I thought even someone from south of the U.S. would realize how insane that sounds but I guess not. If you are okay with teens grabbing semi-automatics, what are those regulations that you claim you also support, fred? Death-row prisoners not having access to nukes or something?

(Edit: Okay, fair is fair, some long posts later, fred finally says he's not talking about kids getting armed. But his first reply to DF when asked about such a situation is not "I'm not talking about arming kids" but rather an approval of the what if scenario, so it's very misleading:
fred79 said:
Doomforge said:
Sure, let's say teens are armed, but who would actually volunteer to go for a 1v1 with a guy holding an AR-15?


I would. if you were to scan the internet for video of legally armed civilians defending themselves from armed attacks, you'd find them. i even have some myself. ccw(concealed-carry weapons) holders actually USE their guns in defense all the time. do you know why? because they have the mindframe that they and the guns are needed in a hostile situation, and they train in that mindframe. just like i do.
)


And even if we take one on one situations, a simple example from the article, the chances of you getting robbed in a street in London and NY is pretty much the same, they are both megapols with lots of racial variety, gangs, mafia, immigrants... Oh, and neither one has a border to Mexico! They are as similar as two cities can get in this regard. However, although the chances of getting robbed are the same, the chances of NY robbery ending up with a dead victim is 54 times stronger. Now just repeat that: 54 times, not 2 times, not 4 times, 54 times. If the "survival hypothesis" were true, wouldnt we have just the opposite result, wouldnt our very well trained, gun cultured Americans have protected themselves and died at least a little less than their British mates?

"The guns protect you" argument is so short-sighted, it is like this, imagine you live in a city with a poisonous cloud, constantly taking lives. You have pill owners who tell you that taking the pill reduces the chance of getting poisoned. There are some side effects and it doesnt always work but hey, it's better than ending up dead for sure. You tell them that the cloud is actually coming from the factory that produces those pills and had they stopped buying so much pills all the time, the cloud would shrink to the size of a tree. But they keep telling you, hey, I have the pill, and I survive, reality of life!
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 20, 2018 06:06 PM

I love US, but I just can't grasp my head around the fact that:

1. drinking beer is illegal till like 21?
2. having sex with a 17 yo is crime.

both of those imply 17-21 people are too young, stupid and naive to take drugs and have sex, and those laws intend to protect them from either getting addicted too quickly, or getting abused and taken advantage off.

At the same time, the same 17yo kid, who is legally treated as moron regarding sex and drugs, can walk into a gun store and buy an assault rifle just like that. Now he's magically considered mature enough to give him military grade killing tools?

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 20, 2018 06:14 PM

@ df: yeah, don't get me started on the laws we currently have. they're ridiculous, and many kids don't follow them, anyway. it's relatively easy for a kid to get alcohol, and the legal sexual ages are largely ridiculous as well. alcohol and prescription drugs are a large problem in this country. i'd say prescription drugs are actually the larger problem, despite all the alcohol-related deaths. but it's not like you can get rid of alcohol, since people can make it on their own if needed.

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted February 24, 2018 07:07 PM

I have lived outside large cities for a long while and my experiences reveal city-folk (generally} have zero background when it comes to much of anything in nature. However, being ignorant about trees, animals, poison-ivy etc. should be expected from people that seldom, if ever, stand in contact with such...natural wonders.

Guns however, are typically and dangerously the same to these very same folks. I'll forgo the many real-life stories where I have met & corrected young men that drove out to the country-side to shoot their new toy and knew not a damn thing about, say i.e. line-of-sight, trespassing laws or even the basic wisdom they might want to talk to a person that freaking lives there, before playing bang-bang?

When you live in a dwelling that is set apart from any others? Cannot afford to build gated-walls or possess your own small army; like a great many fat-cats that want to use our Law for their own goals? I had large-dogs and guns at my home for my family's safety. When there is no Law for borders than there could possibly be...no law at any moment?

The right to bear arms was all about the Militia because that was the nation's army. (think Switzerland today) Fast forward in time - however, we were NOT supposed to have huge standing-armies that are responsible for everyone else on the planet.

You know, since I have been away and since my days of rambling on Christ's usurpation, I have found the same inside every foundation of our society i.e. Law, Tax, representational-Government...you name it. The dismissal of Truth is by far the worst, because lies & misdirection have been used to corrupt most everything that matters to work a reasonable-society.

However, even when/if we can see ALL facts surrounding an issue, solutions are not instantly whole and complete but at best...mere steps to get to better solutions.

i.e. of complexity

a. A place to start could be people that live in bee-have structures amid a million-souls have no need for an armory? However, maybe some belong to a local shooting-range and intend to get out of Dodge? For me, I would say...then move. But see, that would make me a ?

If we say all have the right bear arms (beyond the two they start with) does that mean without conditions? Like Fred stated, we make people take a test one-time to drive a car. (should that be that lax?) (I am neither for or against the idea) I'll add this; BY-LAW, I as a sick old man have to conform to a law that DEMANDS I see a doctor every quarter or I cannot get the legal-drug that after decades of medical-experiments on my sorry butt, was the only remedy that gave "some relief" that can be used daily? Under this strict law I have witnessed old people go through pain-hell because others that follow the letter of the law, seem unable to grasp the reality...in front of them?

Yet, Law seems to mean very little to the elites around my nation...unless of course it actually serves...their purpose?    

b. If all cities were gun-free zones? Then the police would need to do their job...right? However, that cannot happen at times because of so many of the lawless gathering in places, where tax-payer money is used for other reasons and communities do what then?

I have seen lesser-crimes and "once upon a time" typical enforcement failed to even Start...due to lack of resources or the heads to pursue the guilty? You see, when crimes are rampant and not all weighed the same - reasonable priorities like which is worse? comes into play. Could this impact life on the streets in everyday situations? Damn well it does and then we can add something like, Parents didn't care, communities evaporated, enforcement battling balance-sheets...yeah, could that make angry loners who do not give a flip about laws or people?

I will omit the order of stand-down used for how many past years - data-wars and ordained-expert's biased babble, evaluating apples and oranges while talking about onions and the fate of river-fish, while refusing to follow the money, logic or both; on many issues.  

3. I often read comments about unlawful-use-of-text? Yet those same minds drift further afield from their own neighbors, neglecting the reality of the laws already around them? They can do anything they fancy and who gives a snowe what a neighbor thinks? I.e., like drive down the street in the wee hours and have the need to rattle all glass less than a block away, courtesy of 100db ear-blasters, merrily singing along to kill kill kill?

When a person is either handed everything or handed nothing at all...maybe that could form unreasonable attitudes that in the end mirror only selfies?

People need to abide by current laws already on the damned books! If changes are to be made, there should be agreement only after, reasonable, truthful, and respectful debate. However, if the divisions we now have continue in pick and choose mindsets, the State will always do what it wants and I detest that result. Every law should apply to every citizen, no matter skin, sex, age, politics, past, position, bank-account or the people they know or the people they do not. You broke the law? Yes. Guilty. But? But nothing. eos

The serious problem at the heart of all our problems is that we cannot legislate morality...nor common sense. Because in the case of the last incident...let's review:

1. The suspect had the police called on him how many times?
2. He posted at times in his free-space and said what? And how many gave a flip?
3. The FBI knew about this guy and did what?
4. A dude paid money to protect those kids did what?

And that is NOT the whole story.

But moving on...after this incident...the supposed-journalists did what? Flamed a sitting President for not preventing this happening? Complete insanity but I think for a pointed-purpose. These same folks call our President a Nazi based on no grounds whatsoever and then they desire him to exceed his authority and act like one?

Last I checked it is the States and the people in those states that must act, get true representation in Congress and demand lawful changes to Law. Heavy emphasis on "the people".


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"Do your own research"

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 26, 2018 12:24 PM

there were police actually AT the school, and they didn't attempt to intervene, during the parkland florida shooting:

Quote:
Parkland school shooting: Authorities investigate deputies who stayed outside

The Broward County Sheriff's Office is investigating why three of its deputies apparently remained outside the Florida high school where 17 people were killed this month, Sheriff Scott Israel said Sunday.

Two law enforcement sources told NBC News that the deputies didn't enter Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland during one of the nation's deadliest school shootings on Feb. 14. Israel told NBC News on Sunday that the department's internal affairs division was trying to determine whether they stayed outside when they shouldn't have.

The acknowledgement came three days after Israel announced the resignation of another deputy, Scot Peterson, who'd been assigned to the high school but remained outside during the shooting, and as the sheriff's response to the shooting came under increasing scrutiny.

Gov. Rick Scott asked the state's law enforcement agency to investigate that response on Sunday.

Meanwhile, in a letter signed by 73 state lawmakers and released Sunday, Florida House Speaker Richard Corcoran asked Scott, a Republican, to suspend Israel, a Democrat, immediately over the department's alleged failures to appropriately handle "repeated warning signs" from the man who's been charged with the shooting, Nikolas Cruz, 19.

During one report to the sheriff's office in 2016, for example, a caller said Cruz planned to shoot up a school and had posted photos on Instagram in which he was holding a gun. Last November, another caller said Cruz was collecting guns and knives and described him as a school shooter in the making.

The sheriff's office didn't immediately respond to a request for comment on Corcoran's letter. Earlier, Israel dismissed an open letter to Scott from state Rep. Bill Hager, who backed Corcoran and called for the sheriff's ouster.

In a response to Scott (PDF), Israel disputed Hager's "reckless letter," saying it was filled with "factual errors, unsupported gossip and falsehoods." In an interview, Israel said he believed the effort against him was "politically motivated."

The FBI has also acknowledged that it didn't investigate a message left on a tip line about Cruz's "gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts."

Israel said investigators were still trying to figure out whether the other deputies who reportedly remained outside Marjory Stoneman on Feb. 14 should have pursued Cruz.

He said Coral Springs Police Chief Tony Pustizzi told a sheriff's official that as his officers approached the high school on Feb. 14, they saw two or three deputies outside the school. Investigators plan to take statements from those officers and review possible surveillance video.

"At this point, I have no independent knowledge from video or personal knowledge that any Broward sheriff's deputy did not go in when they should have," he said.

Coral Springs police have declined to comment on the reports, saying in a statement: "Any actions or inactions that negatively affected the response will be investigated thoroughly, and the information will be released officially from the proper agency spokesperson."

Marjory Stoneman held a voluntary orientation on Sunday afternoon as the school prepared for a phased-in reopening this week. Staff members would return Monday and Tuesday, Broward County Public Schools said in a statement, while students would return Wednesday.



so, it's been confirmed, that the parkland local cops WOULDN'T have protected the students, anyway. just more evidence that the teachers themselves needed to be trained and armed. because apparently the police no longer "protect and serve".

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