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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 07:26 PM |
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That's funny because the sky actually isn't blue 
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2018 07:26 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:28, 28 Feb 2018.
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fred79 said:
turkey has gun rights? care to elaborate?
With background checks not so hard to pass, you can buy guns, not semi-automatics though. A friend of mine even had a hand gun for his birthday from his boss, the guy was from the Black Sea region and they are like our Texas in this regard, they love their guns and are attached to them in a traditional "family value" sense.
We even had problems because people from rural areas, who are used to celebrating by shooting in the air, in weddings or after a football game etc, did the same when they migrate to the city and kept shooting people in their balconies by accident. (That stopped when they finally discovered using blanks to celebrate.)
So a country with guns is nothing alien to me.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 07:36 PM |
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Minion said:
That's funny because the sky actually isn't blue
you know perfectly well what i mean, bud.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 07:39 PM |
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artu said:
So a country with guns is nothing alien to me.
if you are, then why aren't there more mass shootings over there? i mean, by the civilians. not by the cops. take a second to understand where i'm going with this.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 07:54 PM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
What I said is, that Trump touting the idea of walling up a 2.000 mile border in order to stop illegal immigration should have discredited him in the eyes of everyone with more than one brain cell, whether he meant it at the time or not, because the idea is utterly moronic as such, not to mention extremely expensive, AND will not stop illegal immigration, obviously.
Well, OK then. Let him build that wall if is such moronic idea, so then you will have real material to mock and criticize his management, instead of supposing and speculating, because this is what you do. What will be better than throw in his face statistics on how a wall who costed billions is not effective at all, thus he failed on his major electoral promise. This will heavily affect his reelection, he will be done, good for you.
If it doesn't work.
On the other side, if it works and indeed illegals numbers passing by are halved or more... its the other side who will copiously laugh then he will get another mandate. I say go for it and find who is smart.
Thing is, someone else already did it for him in kind of a limited space environment, and the results are not really encouraging. Making the same mistakes over and over and over again is NOT what should be our goal, nor should we strive to do.
What I want to say is, that there are OTHER, more reasonable options - not to mention that illegal immigrants are definitely NOT the worst social problem the US have.
For all 'I' care they can waste their money and their efforts building ten walls.
I'm more concerned about people LIKE ME, regular, normal people, who fall for crappy notions like that.
The fact that it doesn't look like they will do ANYthing in this regard should speak for itsel, mind you.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2018 07:56 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:57, 28 Feb 2018.
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@fred
Because the extent of what type of guns are available and the culture surrounding it is different. And a teenager getting his hands on a semi-automatic would be like one in a billion.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 07:59 PM |
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artu said:
JollyJoker said:
Why would SUICIDES count for anything, though?
Research shows that in a depressive state of mind, people having suicidal thoughts tend not to act on them or "leave the door half-open" in their attempts much more when there are no guns around. Looks like pulling the trigger has its own psychological charm.
In a "gun culture, yes. You need to have one to use one.
But doesn't Japan trump (sorry) this?
I think, everyone has a right to off themSELVES. You don't have the right to decide about your birth, but you CAN decide about your death if you want to, and "easier suicide" has abolutely NO relevance for me. EVERY technological progress makes it easier. Cars, electric currents, trains, high buildings, drugs - YOU NAME IT. US are a gun nation - so more people will commit suicide with a gun there.
So?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2018 08:13 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:14, 28 Feb 2018.
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Well, the thing is, most suicides are momantery lapses under severe depression, not decisions of cold logic. And depression is an illness, so they try to cure it like any other illness and not just let it be. Naturally, guns escalating suicides is categorized as a problem with such approach: Link, Link. It's not that more people's choice of method is guns because they are available, mind you, they escalate the ratio of suicides in total. And it's not just about the specific gun culture in U.S. I read something similar about Switzerland, (cant find it at the moment) which also has very high gun ownership but not the mass shootings or gangs. Their suicide (by gun) ratio is very high.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 08:13 PM |
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artu said:
Because the extent of what type of guns are available and the culture surrounding it is different. And a teenager getting his hands on a semi-automatic would be like one in a billion.
uh-huh. and is turkey a mixing pot of the world's nationalities and beliefs? is turkey the country that declares "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"? is turkey fed with the same bulk hormones that the u.s. is?
i understand that our culture is being replicated(and apparently popularized) in many areas around the globe, but do you understand that we are the SOURCE of that culture? and do you understand what FOUNDED our culture? because i HAVE already mentioned this before, which i'm mentioning again, because you obviously didn't get it the first time.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 08:23 PM |
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artu said:
I read something similar about Switzerland, (cant find it at the moment) which also has very high gun ownership but not the mass shootings or gangs.
i think, that you're not understanding nationality. people from switzerland are mostly swiss, by my understanding. what's their racial population like there?
my guess is, not the melting pot that can be exploited, like the u.s. is. among every other thing i've mentioned already. and still, 1 + 1 doesn't make 2 for you. it makes something more like, "q". 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2018 08:27 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:29, 28 Feb 2018.
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No fred, I did get it and replied by various angles. The most obvious one being, this argument of yours is simply debunked by comparing gun violence within different states and regions of U.S. itself. Not to mention, looking at your issues as "fate" is never a good start, you can of course have unique problems, which should lead you to seek out unique solutions. Obviously, astronomical amounts of guns of all sorts everywhere is NOT working and things are getting worse, because fighting fire with fire (quite literally) is a bad idea and it's as effective as walking around with smoke bombs all the time to protect yourself from a sniper attack.
Let me ask you something very simple, you can carry a revolver all the time, but you sure wont be carrying a semi-automatic rifle all the time, right? I mean, will you be going on a date or to see a movie looking like Rambo, a rifle on your shoulder weighing I dont know many kilograms... So how will access to that protect you from mass shootings which are random attacks on the street or in a bar, concert etc, coming from some unlocated spot?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 28, 2018 08:31 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 11:29, 02 Mar 2018.
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I lived in Switzerland for quite some time and I can confirm citizens can be legally armed there. As for population's mixity, it depends where you live, in Geneva for instance, where is ONU siege, you have more than 20% 40% of immigrants, only counting the legal ones.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 08:37 PM |
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artu said:
Well, the thing is, most suicides are momantery lapses under severe depression, not decisions of cold logic. And depression is an illness, so they try to cure it like any other illness and not just let it be. Naturally, guns escalating suicides is categorized as a problem with such approach: Link, Link. It's not that more people's choice of method is guns because they are available, mind you, they escalate the ratio of suicides in total. And it's not just about the specific gun culture in U.S. I read something similar about Switzerland, (cant find it at the moment) which also has very high gun ownership but not the mass shootings or gangs. Their suicide (by gun) ratio is very high.
Artu, depression is an illness, yes, but not figment of the mind. The "pain" (if you want to call it that way) is REAL. If you are really depressed, you don't commit suicide because you "imagine" something that's not there, you commit suicide because you can't stand feeling that way. it's just ... unbearable. As long as there is no cure or at least "release" this is on the same level as rather dying than suffering excrutiating pain.
It's not some kind of paranoia, mind you, that let's you see things.
And, no, there cannot be such a thing as a "suicide artifact". That's maybe a good short story of Stephen King, but in reality? Please? Cold metal? The fascination of blowing a gun barrel? Of playing with the fate, playing Russian roulette? Bull.
Anyway - what does that even matter?If guns were completely legal to have and would not be used to kill others (bcause it was a "peronal culture" doing that stuff with swords and knives and hand-to-hand), but instead a lot of people would die, committing suicide or accidental, cleaning or playing with them - so what?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 08:45 PM |
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artu said:
No fred, I did get it and replied by various angles. The most obvious one being, this argument of yours is simply debunked by comparing gun violence within different states and regions of U.S. itself.
you didn't get jack snow that i've written, or you wouldn't be arguing with me, still. are you referring to major cities? because i can also point out the glaring reasons why gun violence will be different in areas with a prolific presence of street gangs and other hoodlums.
artu said:
Not to mention, looking at your issues as "fate" is never a good start, you can of course have unique problems, which should lead you to seek out unique solutions. Obviously, astronomical amounts of guns of all sorts everywhere is NOT working and things are getting worse, because fighting fire with fire (quite literally) is a bad idea and it's as effective as walking around with smoke bombs all the time to protect yourself from a sniper attack.
again with the "guns are the issue", and "THAT'S what needs to change". man, you're hopeless.
artu said:
Let me ask you something very simple, you can carry a revolver all the time, but you sure wont be carrying a semi-automatic rifle all the time, right? I mean, will you be going on a date or to see a movie looking like Rambo, a rifle on your shoulder weighing I dont know many kilograms... So how will access to that protect you from mass shootings which are random attacks on the street or in a bar, concert etc, coming from some unlocated spot?
i carry a semi-automatic pistol, because that's what most gun murders are committed with; and it's easier to reload a pistol than it is a revolver. i don't go around carrying an ar like an idiot, because i don't want to get robbed for it by advertising that i have a gun to opportunists(which this country is FULL of). the difference is, mine is LEGAL. "fighting fire with fire" is how we can stay ALIVE, here. and in case you didn't realize, a semi-automatic pistol is just like a semi-automatic rifle, with two distinct differences: range and firepower. other than that, there's really no difference. you can literally get the same magazine capacity for a pistol, that you can for a magazine-fed rifle.
but you're on the wrong track. let me put you back on the right one.
say, you just happen to be in the area of a spree killing, and you have nothing but your dick in your hand while people start dropping like flies around you.
law-abiding citizens in the u.s., if they're smart(and the area the spree killer is attacking ISN'T A SAFE ZONE), will have a gun in their hand by the time the first person drops, and can actually STOP the attacker.
whereas YOU, with just your dick in your hand, will end up being another victim.
does that make what i've been saying, for pages now, ANY clearer for you? any at ALL?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2018 08:45 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:59, 28 Feb 2018.
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@jj
Yes, the pain is real but it's not permanent most of the time, so a lot of suicides are like outbursts in this regard, people would take them back the next day, if they could. Death is quite permanent though!
And as I said, studies show that guns are not just a choice of method, they make it easier to TAKE and execute the decision. You're free not to care of course, I dont lose sleep over it either. But when going through the issue of guns, them escelating suicide rates (not as the method of choice, I repeat this, but overall suicide rates) is part of the topic and understandably.
@fred
Treating counter arguments as a brick wall dont make them disappear. And it indeed starts to seem like a bad idea to argue with you because that has been all you had done, so let me "once again" put you on the actual track instead of your Dirty Harry fantasy:
Me or the rest of the world do not have to worry about having to stand with our dicks in our hands because since we dont have zillions of guns everywhere, we dont have those mass shootings to begin with, or have them like once every five years or so. (And you are not the only country with immigrants and social conflict and melting pots, that's just one of your rationalizations and a very bad one.)
You, on the other hand, deal with mass shootings on a WEEKLY basis and it almost never goes the way you fantasize. Easier access to guns only escalate the amount of mass shootings and not the amount of people who protect themselves by a counter-attack. This is a statistical FACT.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 08:52 PM |
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people who want to commit suicide are going to commit suicide, artu. demonizing HOW they do it, is retarded.
just so you know, having a gun doesn't make it easier to commit suicide. have you ever BEEN suicidal, artu? ever had a knife to your arteries, ready to go?
well, guess what. i had BOTH. a gun AND a knife. i was going to open my femoral arteries in a nice hot bath, and eat a bullet(or more, if i could).
and yet, i'm still here, because i decided against it. huh! that evil 'ol gun didn't KILL ME! 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2018 09:01 PM |
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You oversimplify everything. Read the links and see why it isnt so.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 09:04 PM |
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let me ask you something, artu(and all guns-are-the-devil people here, actually):
why do you think new york city has such a high gun murder rate?
now, did you know that, in new york city, they have highly restrictive gun laws(like the kind people are pushing for in this thread).
do those two true statements somehow CONTRADICT one another? why or why not?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 09:06 PM |
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artu said:
You oversimplify everything.
IT'S A SIMPLE THING TO UNDERSTAND, AND I'M EVEN BREAKING IT DOWN FOR YOU IN SIMPLER TERMS. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T GET MY MORE IN-DEPTH EXPLANATIONS.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2018 09:12 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 21:15, 28 Feb 2018.
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artu said:
You, on the other hand, deal with mass shootings on a WEEKLY basis and it almost never goes the way you fantasize. Easier access to guns only escalate the amount of mass shootings and not the amount of people who protect themselves by a counter-attack. This is a statistical FACT.
i do? funny, i've never been involved in one. and it doesn't go the way i EXPLAIN, because all of the attacks happen in SAFE ZONES. WHERE THERE ARE NO GUNS ALLOWED TO BE CARRIED LEGALLY, EXCEPT BY COWARDLY SECURITY PERSONNEL WHO DON'T DO THEIR JOBS.
this, right here, is the reason why i'm describing arguing with a wall, artu. because NOTHING IS GETTING THROUGH.
i have been as crystal clear as i'm going to get on the subject. you anti-gun guys are horribly, horribly wrong. accept this and move on. please.
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This thread is pages long: 
