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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2015 10:39 AM |
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Just throwing in helpful links as a start to read into the matter:
Christian terrorism
Anti-abortion violence
As a short personal comment, I don't think, you can simply wave things off by pointing to Christ and love thy neighbour and summarily be finished with the issue, because it's not as clear-cut as that. I think, you can make an easy case that Jesus and Christianity support a power of the state to deal with wrongdoers - but what if the state isn't doing that or does wrong itself? Are Christians doomed to accept that? Are they forbidden to fight in a war that's brought to them, threatening their lives, their freedom - their way of life and religion?
Based on that - isn't Planned Parenthood war on the unborn life? Not that I would say that, since I've nothing against abortion at all, but it isn't quite so easy. If "war against evil" is allowed - and obviously it's at least not forbidden - then it's a matter of definition (and it's notable, that especially in the US EVERYTHING is now a war, on crime, on drugs, on poverty, on hunger ... which just means, that a couple more tools are available here, because, you know, in war everything is allowed (at least a lot more than in peacetimes).
So: if hunger is an enemy, are we supposed to turn the other cheek? If drugs are an enemy, are we supposed to turn the other cheek? If crime is an enemy, are we supposed to turn the other cheek?
If we don't, why be selective when to turn the other cheek and when not, which enemy to love and which not?
If you think that a Planned Parenthood Clinic is a "Murder Factory", it isn't that unthinkable that you are in serious trouble getting your priorities right, depending on your general situation and mindset.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 11, 2015 10:53 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
As a short personal comment, I don't think, you can simply wave things off by pointing to Christ and love thy neighbour and summarily be finished with the issue, because it's not as clear-cut as that. I think, you can make an easy case that Jesus and Christianity support a power of the state to deal with wrongdoers - but what if the state isn't doing that or does wrong itself? Are Christians doomed to accept that? Are they forbidden to fight in a war that's brought to them, threatening their lives, their freedom - their way of life and religion?
So: if hunger is an enemy, are we supposed to turn the other cheek? If drugs are an enemy, are we supposed to turn the other cheek? If crime is an enemy, are we supposed to turn the other cheek?
If we don't, why be selective when to turn the other cheek and when not, which enemy to love and which not?
I can answer to that quoted part now. Christians are only supposed to defend themselves, and overcome evil with good in personal disputes. However, in general we are supposed to be for obeying the law, and lawful punishment for crime, so that does not mean Jesus and his disciples were hippies 
We are supposed to turn the other cheek to people, not to such problems mentioned. Of course, key word in all I said is "supposed"...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2015 12:23 PM |
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That's not saying much. If you are living in a poor neighborhood that isn't policed much where crime is rampant - are you supposed to accept that the authorities don't deal with the problems and turn the other cheek or are you allowed to organize a neighborhood watch kind of force to fill in for the missing policing?
I don't think the answer is, good Christians turn the other cheek, and to hell with self-defense.
Now, if you distill the key words out of that description, it's not that difficult to imagine the slippery slope you may find yourself on. You see, things look different, depending on whether you look at it as a one-step thing (be peaceful -> kill people) or as a series of small-step events, one following the other, each step in itself not being much of a big deal compared with the last one.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2015 12:31 PM |
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JJ you obviously have some grudge against christians. What are you trying to prove? Even if we don't agree state policy, that don't mean we can take mathers to our own hands. Even if it's 'war' you speak of, can't fight 'evil' whit evil.
No mather how you look at it, violent attack against clinic is not right (and has nothing to do whit real christianity)
If you JJ have more of these ludicrous quostions, I suggest you use: talking about christianity thread or private message me, as in here it's not very constructive conversation.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2015 01:06 PM |
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Well, that's your opinion, and, surprise, I have a different one. Also - trying to invalidate a different opinion by alleging a "personal grudge" is a pretty dishonest thing to do.
You say Quote:
No mather how you look at it, violent attack against clinic is not right (and has nothing to do whit real christianity)
, but you are pretty obviously wrong - if you were right, there wouldn't be attacks of that kind.
For YOU and YOUR way to lock at it, violent attacks against an abortion clinic aren't right, but that's not at all what I meant. I just meant to say that there ARE ways to look at things that would make such an attack for someone who'd think himself a Christian not an automatic no-no.
It solely depends on what you define as evil and whether you are prepared to act against evil. If you consider something evil enough, and if you accept the fact that violence is no problem when it can be described as self-defense, then suddenly things abhorrent for most aren't anymore so out of the question for others.
No offense, and no discussion necessary, just mentioning it as fact, our comrade Elodin, who just came back to HC after a prolonged absence, is not only a vocal Christian, but also a vocal American nationalist, and he has no problem whatsoever with certain US actions that others would find appalling.
There isn't this hard barrier that would make the combination of Christian and Terrorism per se impossible. "Terror" is a certain form of warfare used against a superior opponent, and the strictly Catholic IRA had no problem with acts of terror against the British military presence in Ulster (understanding themselves fighting in a war), avoiding "civil" targets, but also accepting them as unavoidable or unlucky collateral damage in some cases), "terror" being just a name for a "cowardly" way to fight, avoiding to be caught out in the open: Robin Hood was a terrorist, if you think about it. (This is still a very different thing from more or less random terror attacks against explicit civilian targets with the explicit aim to create as many civilian casualties as possible).
That said - school shootings are a completely different thing, obviously, but the comparison with victims of terror attacks is still interesting.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted December 11, 2015 01:22 PM |
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@ JJ
It is evident to me that things cannot be taken to the extreme. If Christians had never tried to defend themselves with force, then they would've been defeated and gone long before the Roman emperor Constantine capitalised on the new religion.
The Christian ideal was attempted and found too difficult. And no wonder...
"Do to others what you would want them to do to you" has never been a popular motto.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted December 11, 2015 03:35 PM |
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I think there is something racist about the whole, mostly American, anti abortion stance.
White people, with their wealth and other factors, were the first to calm down and only have 2 babies per couple. Others usually have more. They are growing. We must keep the babies to have as many white babies as possible.
I'd be curious how a study would turn out. Take many pregnant women, some white, some non white, and see if the anti abortion people put more pressure on the white pregnant women than the others.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted December 11, 2015 11:40 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 23:42, 11 Dec 2015.
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I see no one has been able to quote any New Testament passage that justifies acts of violence in the name of Christ. Any utterance of "Christian terrorism" is misguided at best.
Christians are to speak out against sin, such as killing human life in the womb.
Ephesians 5:
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them
Christians are not authorized by the New Testament to kill anyone for any sin. We are to pray for sinners, not kill them.
1 Timothy 2 (KJV)
2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
It is the state's job to be a terror to evildoers. It is the state that has the power of the sword.
Romans 13 (KJV)
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
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Revelation
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 12, 2015 12:49 AM |
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Elodin said:
Any utterance of "Christian terrorism" is misguided at best.
so who are those people killing abortionists? killer clowns from outer space? 
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Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
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posted December 12, 2015 01:16 AM |
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Yay, let's go after those exceptions! Let's make up some claims that christians are terrorists when it's probably an isolated pehnomenon that wouldn't reach the hundreds.
Now anti-abortion violence? It's just morally acceptable to me. Justifiable homicide.
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Death to the world.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted December 12, 2015 01:24 AM |
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That's like the Christian version of "those Muslim terrorists are just the exception".
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Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
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posted December 12, 2015 01:55 AM |
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The difference with muslims is that Islam is a different religion and has created a geopolitical project.
That's not the case with christianity.
Just compare the numbers and knock it off with the BS.
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Death to the world.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted December 12, 2015 02:08 AM |
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Svartzorn said:
Now anti-abortion violence? It's just morally acceptable to me. Justifiable homicide.
Here we see the superior morality of Christians. A person who works at legal planned parenthood clinics can be murdered.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 12, 2015 02:40 AM |
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Minion said:
Svartzorn said:
Now anti-abortion violence? It's just morally acceptable to me. Justifiable homicide.
Here we see the superior morality of Christians. A person who works at legal planned parenthood clinics can be murdered.
minion beat me to it. svartzorn, have you ever considered that abortion is a needed right? maybe, i don't know, for a multitude of reasons? not the least of which, overpopulation? whereas there are groups of christians who are taking it upon themselves to singlehandedly HELP OVERPOPULATE THE EARTH?
...i mean, i don't even really know how to make that point more emphatic. your logic is horribly flawed, man. not to mention, very unchristian. you think christ would back you up with your hatred?
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Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
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posted December 12, 2015 03:11 AM |
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Minion said:
Here we see the superior morality of Christians. A person who works at legal planned parenthood clinics can be murdered.
You know, that's why I personally don't waste time discussing anything with your kind. Because you are dishonest. You're a bunch of f*cking crooks. Intellectual crooks, that is.
I EXPLICITLY said it was MY PERSONAL position. You QUOTED it, understood what I said, and want to attribute it to all christians, when you know damn straight christians don't think like that.
This is precisely why I don't waste my time arguing with your kind, I normally just give you the finger (see the bird fly BTW). Because that's pretty much what one can expect: dishonesty, cunningness, dissimulation.
Christian morality IS superior, there's nothing you can do about it. Crooks like you just established a secularized version of the right morals, so you're pretty much barking at an empty wall. Be my guest.
fred79 said:
minion beat me to it. svartzorn, have you ever considered that abortion is a needed right? maybe, i don't know, for a multitude of reasons? not the least of which, overpopulation? whereas there are groups of christians who are taking it upon themselves to singlehandedly HELP OVERPOPULATE THE EARTH?
...i mean, i don't even really know how to make that point more emphatic. your logic is horribly flawed, man. not to mention, very unchristian. you think christ would back you up with your hatred?
Guess us christians are the problem overpopulating the earth. Even though sexual morality within marriage is also very strict in christianity, somehow we are the problem.
Not people having sex discriminately and wanting to get rid of their responsibilities by killing innocent children. Yeah, that's probably
the kind of "superior morality" that douche minion is talking about.
My morality on this subject is NOT flawed. All those who contribute to promote abortion crimes directly or indirectly should be target of some kind of retribution - as prevention and intimidation, that is, not as some kind of vendetta.
Yes, that includes killing. Yes, that includes burning those institutions to the ground. Yes, that includes depriving those "people" from the basics resources necessary for living.
Now, I don't call this necessarily good, it's just a necessary evil.
Abortion is not a godamn "right", it's a crime. The only LOGICAL, and thus acceptable, hypothesis in which abortion is justified is when it brings risk to the mother's life. It's logical that she should have a choice in that case because we are talking about the same kind of rights here. It's acceptable to kill one to save another.
That's also the justification that's been used by the Church in some cases in which a war was inevitable. To pick a lesser evil.
Same applies here: we put a bullet through some liberal heads and we save millions.
Is it the most noble, christian and morally right thing to do? NO. I'm saying it's acceptable and LOGIC, that's pretty much it. Lesser evil.
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Death to the world.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted December 12, 2015 03:30 AM |
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Edited by Kayna at 03:32, 12 Dec 2015.
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Meh. The abortion question is one of the hardest to answer in our current time. I have more respect for people without an answer than those that do.
Can't give a definitive question : Respect.
Gives a clear cut answer : Meh.
No abortion from rape or to save the mother's life : Obviously coming from a man with brain cell malfunction. Like that terrorist. Man have you seen his eyes?
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Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
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posted December 12, 2015 03:36 AM |
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That's pretty much what to expect from ou "tolerant society". People without any kind of values are deserving more respect than those who have. Because those "big questions" are realitvely easy to those who have a strong moral lead, instead of being a tolerant relativist.
Abortion in a rape scenario doesn't even make sense and it gives way to way worse things.
Don't go there.
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Death to the world.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted December 12, 2015 03:46 AM |
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Edited by Kayna at 04:01, 12 Dec 2015.
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Well that's debatable. The "even after rape or with possibility of death for the mother" is part of the abortion question. We can skip it if you want.
Women have proven themselves to sometimes be more morally righteous than men. For example, there are some statistics that shows more women take jobs that are useful for the society ( like teachers and etc ) than men, which more often take jobs for the higher pay alone.
Yet, when we talk about abortion, my little finger tells me that more men than women ( even in percentage ) are against abortion. Why is that? We certainly are in an easier position to judge this, aren't we.
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Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
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posted December 12, 2015 03:56 AM |
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Kayna said:
Well that's debatable. The "even after rape or with possibility of death for the mother" is part of the abortion question. We can skip it if you want.
Women have proven themselves to sometimes be more morally righteous than men. For example, there are some statistics that shows more women take jobs that are useful for the society ( like teachers and etc ) than men, which more often take jobs for the higher pay alone.
Yet, when we talk about abortion, my little finger tells me that more men than women ( even in percentage ) are against abortion. Why is that? We certainly are in an easier position to judge this, aren't we.
I'm not saying women are immoral, I'm saying people don't take a stand for anything these days because they lack the balls to stand for what they think is right. Now we are going a step further: they are so grey and insipid they don't even come up with personal thoughts.
The proportion of men and women that defend or are against abortion does not concern this matter at all. You can't base social morality around sex, even though you can attribute roles to people which are more fitting to them (that quite literally applies to what you said about women being better at being teachers, to some degree).
Bottom line, killing an innocent child to satisfy your sexual lust, to run away from responsibilities of raising the child, is wrong. I don't care what you say, it's peremptorily wrong.
Edit: I'm being clear here, that's a position I've held for a long time. Little did I know I would have to stand the test of it, for now I have an 1 year old son. His mother wanted to abort him at some point, I said she did that, I would make sure she would be prosecuted.
I could have ran away from my responsibility, but I didn't. All I had to do was complying to her will.
I didn't have a real job back then. I hadn't finished college. I was pretty much f*cked, but things worked out. My son is growing healthy, his mother loves him - she regrets the will she had. and, yeah, we're together even though her pregnancy was some tough sh*t.
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Death to the world.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted December 12, 2015 04:01 AM |
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If I must take a side, I'd say I am for abortion. The anti abortion opinion is a short sighted one I think. See, people usually already knows how many kids they're gonna have during their lives. Someone that tells himself "I'm gonna have 2 kids" very rarely gets more than 3. Let's say a woman tells herself she will only have one kid. If she's not ready, but she's pregnant, and she can't get an abortion, then she will not be ready to raise her kid, where as if she can get an abortion, and then her kid a few years later, when she is ready, her kid will have a much better upbringing.
So in both cases, women have the same amount of kids, except that with abortion clinics around, they can choose when, which helps kids grow up in a better world.
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This thread is pages long: 
