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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted November 08, 2016 05:33 PM |
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 09, 2016 07:00 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 07:20, 09 Nov 2016.
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artu -
artu said:
Frostysh, why do you keep linking the same thing over and over, it does not contradict with anything I say. Find the 1948 UN Convention, read the definition of genocide, the deportations being planned and systematic, leading to deaths is enough for the genocide to be defined as planned and organized.
mr artu, most of international History-like stuff institutions agreed that the Armenian Genocide has been well planed, and systematic extermination of the armenian guys in the beginning of the 20th century, committed by Young Turks government of the Ottoman Empire.
Not the deportation, mr artu, but the killing itself.
Even if we in theory, through our imagination we can describe the genocide as the accident result of the deportation operation, the result that Young Turks were not aware about genocide, in the beginning of the operation, I do not know, perhaps they were a total imbecilic guys, and was truly unable to predict such result  , of course we cannot just drop off such possibilities  .
I can easily imagine the unplanned character of the genocide. And try to disapprove that for the opposite. -
Along with this fact, We cannot avoid the fact, that extermination process has it's own time duration something about 3-4 years  this is means mr artu, that Young Turks government have a something near 1095 - 1460 frigging days, to give to the "sultan rambo officers" the order to STOP! the frigging operation, to HALT! this snow - mr artu, but what we can see, hmm, interesting . - Was there any frigging order like that?
Even more mr artu, after Armenian Genocide, the Greek Genocide takes it's place, but in this case the Turk Government has been more careful, and prevented most of the information leaks, Assyrian Genocide mr artu  .
So I can easily estimate the probability that Young Turks government has no good plan to exterminate the armenian guy ~ 1/2920 %, whahahhahahhhhhha. Of course I am joking, but still.
So mr artu why I am posting the same resource again and again, well because of your ridiculous attempts to mess with the genocide definition, to appeal to the "brutality of the rambo sultan officers" , and so on. - I will repeat again, IAGS, European Parliament has been recognized Armenian genocide, as a systematic and well-planned, and committed by Young Turks government, but not by rambo officers etc.
As for myself, it looks like you have no interest to be close to the truth.  . You see, mr artu, in the case of the genocide happens in the territory that is under control of some government, in the particular time period, I do not need to prove anything, and I just need to say - the government is responsible, they planned, and executed this operation, the end of story. - and usually, this is will be almost 100% truth . . .
If you are on the side of the Young Turks, you need to make A HELL good proofs to whitewash them.
artu said:
Are you so utterly stupid that you can not understand a simple point although it has been explained to you like it's explained to a five year old over and over again or are you such a degenerate troll that you exploit an issue where millions lost their lives to just piss me off?
And you are so smart mr artu, and you have so prominent mind, and also the "BS sensor" or whatever..  and that because you are proving that Young Turks government has no aware about possibilities of the genocide when they were planned the deportation operation . . . And this is after the all of the massacres precedents, Jihad, the Battle of Sarikemish.
It is interesting mr artu, I just wonder how stupid and degenerative Young Turks government appears in your imagination , so in this case, I can even agreed with you, indeed Young Turk mostly was a degenerates, same as the other "genocider" governments.
But such degenerative troll as I am, cannot even take in account the possibility of such stupid nature of the Ottoman Empire Young Turks government, when I am trying to find something sane about the armenian genocide .
artu said:
There are continuous nationalist revolts in the Ottoman Empire, through the 19th and early 20th century, the revolts themselves are usually very bloody and treacherous, too
Like in the many of the Empires of the 20th c. AD, and like in the many of the Empires of that time, the genocide politics, was the choice of the government. Ottoman Empire was no exception from this list. <imo>
artu said:
Villages get burnt, people get slaughtered. The supression of these revolts are not noble either, they are brutal. But they directly have no tie to the events of 1915. The deportation itself was of course a systematic event but the premeditated goal was not to wipe out the Armenian race. Nothing you link says it was. Nobody claims there was no genocide, so stop linking the same things over and over as if it brings out a point.
Mr artu, as I have mentioned before, the Ottoman Empire have a good level of bureaucracy, centralization, and so on, at the beginning of 20th century the time period of that events was (a telegraph, railroads, machindeguns, modern governments, modern laws, modern bureaucracy etc.. ).
You have agreed that a deportation was a systematic, and well planned, so as I have mentioned above - the Young Turks government, has been fully aware about genocide. About the methods of genocide, about the victims of genocide, and even more, for now I have almost no doubts that the Young Turks have planned the genocide for beginning, the same as Nazi German, the same as SU, the same as CPR - I see no difference in this case.
So for now, I will accept the well planed, and systematic nature of the Armenian Genocide as a fact. Because there is a lot of clues. But of course, I take in account that I can mistaken, still I think the probability of the mistake appears, is low enough.
And I want to continue speculating with a motives, this is promise to be more interesting.
Browsing for a little bit through Holy Saint Internet, I have found some interesting references.
Quote:
At its mildest, the increasingly xenophobic mood in Turkey mani-fested itself in language reforms. In the fi rst year of the war, censors had begun by shutting down English- and French-language publications. Next to go were advertisements and street signs in Entente languages, which had disappeared from the capital by 1915. In 1916, Talaat began cracking down on public usage of German as well, followed rapidly by Armenian and Greek. Gustav Stresemann, the future Chancellor sent by the Reichstag to investigate the state of the German-Ottoman alliance, noticed in March 1916 that German lettering on public signs in the capital was one-third the size of written Turkish. 23 One by one, the old multilingual street and municipal signs of European Pera were replaced with new ones in Ottoman lettering, which few people could actually read.*
Sean McMeekin "The Berlin–Baghdad Express The Ottoman Empire and Germany’s Bid for World Power", page 319
The censors mr artu, it is something that is receiving the orders from the Special Organization, or from the Young Turks CUP itself... .
So looks like the Young Turks guys have planned to "turkify" the Ottoman Empire, same as Nazi German guys planned to "aryanize" their lands, the interesting parallels it is.
Quote:
The Young Turk movement of ambitious, discontented junior army officers seized power in 1908, determined to modernize, strengthen and “Turkify” the empire. They were led by what became an all-powerful triumvirate sometimes referred to as the Three Pashas.
In March of 1914, the Young Turks entered World War I on the side of Germany. They attacked to the east, hoping to capture the city of Baku in what would be a disastrous campaign against Russian forces in the Caucuses. They were soundly defeated at the battle of Sarikemish.
Armenians in the area were blamed for siding with the Russians and the Young Turks began a campaign to portray the Armenians as a kind of fifth column, a threat to the state. Indeed, there were Armenian nationalists who acted as guerrillas and cooperated with the Russians. They briefly seized the city of Van in the spring of 1915.
Armenians mark the date April 24, 1915, when several hundred Armenian intellectuals were rounded up, arrested and later executed as the start of the Armenian genocide and it is generally said to have extended to 1917. However, there were also massacres of Armenians in 1894, 1895, 1896, 1909, and a reprise between 1920 and 1923.
The University of Minnesota’s Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies has compiled figures by province and district that show there were 2,133,190 Armenians in the empire in 1914 and only about 387,800 by 1922.
Writing at the time of the early series of massacres, The New York Times suggested there was already a “policy of extermination directed against the Christians of Asia Minor.”
The Young Turks, who called themselves the Committee of Unity and Progress, launched a set of measures against the Armenians, including a law authorizing the military and government to deport anyone they “sensed” was a security threat.
A later law allowed the confiscation of abandoned Armenian property. Armenians were ordered to turn in any weapons that they owned to the authorities. Those in the army were disarmed and transferred into labor battalions where they were either killed or worked to death.
There were executions into mass graves, and death marches of men, women and children across the Syrian desert to concentration camps with many dying along the way of exhaustion, exposure and starvation.
Much of this was quite well documented at the time by Western diplomats, missionaries and others, creating widespread wartime outrage against the Turks in the West. Although its ally, Germany, was silent at the time, in later years documents have surfaced from ranking German diplomats and military officers expressing horror at what was going on.
Some historians, however, while acknowledging the widespread deaths, say what happened does not technically fit the definition of genocide largely because they do not feel there is evidence that it was well-planned in advance.
JOHN KIFNER, Armenian Genocide of 1915: An Overview
Interesting, the property confiscation, labor to the death, the SU and Nazi German guys, have a good example and the source of the ideas . About the last sentences, it is looks like the stuf described in the IAGS resolution - a speculations with the definitions, the attempt to make show a very far distance connection with the plan of Young Turks government about the armenian guys, and the actually genocide.
As for myself, Young Turks and Nazi Guys is looks similar in the many cases. At least for now, and standing on the information basis that I have.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 09, 2016 08:46 AM |
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Frostyh, do you understand the words "predictable" and "ovelooked" because, they certainly dont mean anything close to "unaware." I never said the Young Turks were unaware of the result, I said, that was not their premeditated goal and their ideological motivation was not to wipe out a race like the Nazis. That doesn't mean they were unaware of how things turned out and if you actually read what I wrote in the first place, what I said was "they didn't care." I dont know who or what you mean by "Rambo officers" but the deaths were mostly a result of disease, hunger, irregular attacks by locals who lost relatives on Armenian attacks, bandits and not as frequently, some low rank officers who marched them overviciously. Now once again, since these were predictable, there is the responsibility of the government which deliberately organized such deportation and hence it is a genocide but "not caring" and "premeditating" are still not the same thing.
The centralized (yet inefficient) bureaucracy is beside my point. East Anatolia is a very backwards region in terms of infrastructure and education even today, back then it was not any different than the "Wild West," there were bandit hordes, disconnected villages with no water or electricity, angry, illiterate mobs of villagers who were in seek of revenge. You don't know about the conditions and atmosphere during WW 1 in the Ottoman Empire. Not only Armenians, civilians and soldiers were dying everywhere from disease, hunger and revolts and the state itself was about to end. And when that happens, you prioritize your limited, diminishing power very carefully. At that point, any civil lives was not the priority for the government to reach out, put aside Armenians. Early 20th century is not a period where protecting civilians triumph everything else, it's a period of strict nationalism where people are expected to sacrifice themselves for their country without asking any questions. So, the government wasn't thinking like "okay, first thing's first, no civilian should get harmed during this" right in the middle of the most brutal war in history.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted November 09, 2016 09:30 PM |
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 10, 2016 07:05 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 07:09, 10 Nov 2016.
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artu -
I am apologizing, I have made my long answer, with a citations, and so on, I have spent a long time to do that, this is including the translation from and to English , the electricity supply issues, as usually appeared, but in this time before I have managed to save my answer into a file from the memory of the Machine, I am crying  I hope the frozen hell itself will be unleashed on the head of the bloody fools who is messing with the frostysh's electricity supplying stuff 
I will post the wide answer little bit after. For now I will post some points of mine
1) The Ottoman Government (Young Turks) have enough power to plan and execute the largest operation (and the most successful ) in the history of the military forces of the Ottoman Empire - The Deportation Operation, so they have enough power to employ a genocide or to halt it, despite of the all that chaos in the Empire.
2) The deportation was clearly directed against the peoples that has been distinguished by ethnic, religious, etc factors.
3) The politics of the "Ottomanism", "turkyfieng" was a straight and well directed too.
4) The probability that the Ottoman Empire government has been not aware about a character of the genocide during the deportation process is almost zero.
5) Mr artu, speculations with the character of deaths during the Armineian genocide, without the any sources of the information in your posts, is looks ridiculous for me. If you will continue such things, I will continue to post the results of the investigations of the Historians, Shoclars of the genocide, and the International Institutions, such as IAGS where clearly stated about the systematic character of the killing process, and character of the deaths. And then will be " the words of mr artu, and his BS sensor that is trembling again VERSUS the words of the International Institutions, that have a responsibility before the Scientific Community, which is a very different from a user of the heroescommunity.com forum - mr artu, with no disrespect of course..."
6) The many Empires have even more difficult periods in the history than the Ottoman Empire during the beginning of the 20th c. AD, and this empires have successfully avoided the genocide politics. if the Ottoman government was so imbecilic to make their own jihad, the turkinization, and the genocide, it was their own problem,.
I see the attempts to speculate on the "difficult conditions" by you, mr artu, as ridiculous.
7) If the The Ottoman Empire gov. have a zero care about the armenian civilians lives, as you trying to show, mr artu, I will say that the Nazi German government have a zero care abuot "non-aryan" ethnic minorities of the "aryan lands" too, and they have warned jewish guys to leave the "aryan lands" before the actual genocide has been executed. - I see a lot parallels there with Ottoman Government.
8) Remarkable, that some persons that was a witnesses of the Armenian Genocide, has been take some organization part in the Holocaust process, at least according to the Wikipedia. Adolf Hitler - the public leader of the Nazi German government, have mentioned the Armenian genocide by himself in the 1939AD.
9) Due to the character of the genocide, and the scale of the deportation operation, even in the imaginary case that the genocide has not a goal from the beginning of the deportation operation, of the Young Turks government. The further events is clearly showing that the Young Turks government have a goal to wipe the non-muslim minorities from the particular territory, in the any possible way, that is including a direct extermination, and they have succeed.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 10, 2016 09:16 AM |
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Oh, please do link a document of an executive order from the top that directly says to kill them. You can't. Most of your long post is, you, ignoring everything I said and answering as if I said there was no genicode again, so I won't even bother to reply to a brick wall who does not hear. Of course, they tried to empty a particular territory from the Armenians, that's not trying to wipe out a race off the world though, it is, as twisted as it is, trying to keep that territory. And no minority group that werent partly in a nationalist rebellion was deported, it's not about being a non-muslim. You can not cleanse a multi-cultural empire that has land in three continents from all of it's non-muslim subjects even in theory, it's ridiculous.
Btw, the Hitler quote is fake and made up by a journalist of that time but that doesn't matter, Hitler can talk about an Armenian genocide because there is an Armenian genocide, and I advise to be very cautios when searching for such stuff, around half of what you'll come across will be fake.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 10, 2016 10:26 AM |
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M. Frostysh, certain topics need a deep understanding and knowledge that is not found in ten minutes google search.
Btw since you keep repeating in the VW that you want to "become smarty" let me tell you listening to other points of views than yours is part of it. Even if you consider it "nonsense".
No need to respond, just to consider.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 11, 2016 07:17 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 07:18, 11 Nov 2016.
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artu -
artu said:
Oh, please do link a document of an executive order from the top that directly says to kill them. You can't
*sigh*
Mr artu, can you find a direct order "to exterminate" the rural guys in the CPR, circa 1960AD, from the ruler elite?
Mr artu, can you find a direct order "to exterminate" the rural guys in the SU, circa 1930AD?
I have a doubts, even in your ability, mr artu, to find the direct order from the leader of the Nazi German, "to exterminate" a jewish population "in the aryan lands", circa "WWII".
i.e. so-called Treblinka II, the extermination place owned by Nazi German, during "WWII".
Mr. artu, the Nazi guys have managed to plant a whole frigging forest, to build a new buildings, in the attempt to hide Treblinka-2, and this is in the very diffucult condition, under the pressure of the Allie's Aviation-stuff.
Quote:
The 1944 aerial photo of Treblinka II after "clean-up". The new farmhouse and livestock building are visible to the lower left.[61] The photograph is overlaid with already-dismantled structures (marked in red/orange). On the left are the SS and Hiwi guards living quarters (1) with barracks defined by the surrounding walkways. At the bottom (2) are the railway ramp and unloading platform (centre), marked with the red arrow. The "road to heaven"[62] is marked with a dashed line. The undressing barracks for men and women, surrounded by a solid fence with no view of the outside, are marked with two rectangles. The location of the new, big gas chambers (3) is marked with a cross. The burial pits, dug with a crawler excavator, are in light yellow.
Treblinka extermination camp
And you , mr artu, are talking about a paper orders . Mr artu, I think the paper NON-PUBLIC orders about the extermination of the non-muslim guys "from the muslim-lands" has been a vaporized long time ago, along with the peoples that has some knowledge about that . Remarkable, that the Special Organization, which specialized in the execution of the NON-PUBLIC orders, has been founded in the Ottoman Empire, right in the time of the genocide politics. . .
artu said:
Most of your long post is, you, ignoring everything I said and answering as if I said there was no genicode again, so I won't even bother to reply to a brick wall who does not hear
Mr artu, my long posts usually contain an academic sources, about how actually genocide happens. And this academic sources posessing that the Young Turk government has planned , and executed the genocide.
In the first time you have tried to blame the "sultan brutal trained officers" , then you tried to blame "a difficult" conditions, I just bored to quote your posts again, and again.
I have showed in my long posts, that is A VERY unlikely the above mentioned character of the Armenian Genocide is, and my blatant analysis is actually agreed with the investigations of the many different scholars, and international institutes.
artu said:
Of course, they tried to empty a particular territory from the Armenians, that's not trying to wipe out a race off the world though, it is, as twisted as it is, trying to keep that territory.
*facepalm*
Nazi German guys also do not want to exterminate the any races that they have burned down in the extermination camps, or killed by the forced labor, or by the machine-gun squadrons . They just want to rid off from this particular races on the "aryan" territory, i.e. some Slavic guys have considered by a Nazi German guys, as "a pure enough", some other, as a not pure enough to live the aryan land. Usually the "pure enough" was the guys that is helping to the Nazi German guys in the military terms .
artu said:
And no minority group that werent partly in a nationalist rebellion was deported, it's not about being a non-muslim. You can not cleanse a multi-cultural empire that has land in three continents from all of it's non-muslim subjects even in theory, it's ridiculous.
Even the Historians that appeals to a difficult conditions in the Ottoman Empire, of that time, such Sean McMeekin, calling the Young Turk government policy as a "xenophobic", i.e. their laws about language. I have posted the citation form the book of mr. McMeekin already, there also "the multicultural" empire has been mentioned, and the result of Young Turks politics of the "turkify" this multicultural empire, has been mentioned too .
Mr artu, I have few times posted the Demographic of the Ottoman Empire data, which is clearly showing the percent of the Muslim guys is drastically rises after the "politics" of the Young Turks .
Even if the 1/4 of this stuff Important events in the beginning of the 20th c AD in the Ottoman Empire is true, this is will be enough to call the politics of the Young Turks, as the politics directed to the monolitization of the Empire. The end of story.
Quote:
Several weeks after Wangenheim’s death, Pallavicini went deeper
into the matter. Connecting the Armenian tragedy, as Morgenthau
later would, to the unleashing of a holy war in Ottoman Turkey, the
Austrian Ambassador produced a withering critique of Oppenheim’s
jihad stratagem. In global terms, Pallavicini concluded, the Ottoman
holy war fetvas had only ‘succeeded in exposing to the world, that the
Caliph no longer has the esteem of Islamic believers as in past times’, thus dealing a possibly fatal blow to the prestige of the Sunni Caliphate and of the Ottoman Empire itself. Rather than bring forth armies of Islam, the declaration of holy war by the Sultan had merely encouraged fanatics like Enver and Talaat to indulge further their latent ‘xenophobic Muslim-nationalism’. ‘If the war lasts much longer,’ Pallavicini warned, ‘the Armenian persecutions, which are already taking on the character of a general anti-Christian campaign, will ultimately affect the living conditions of all foreigners in Turkey.’ Whether because of Wangenheim’s death, or the unfolding nightmare on the Baghdad railway, it was clear that ‘the Germans are now beginning to fear that they can no longer exorcize the spirits, that they themselves called forth.’
Sean McMeekin "The Berlin–Baghdad Express The Ottoman Empire and Germany’s Bid for World Power" page 275
Perhaps it will even more hard to accepts that the Ottoman Empire genocide, crash, and even their role in the "WWI", was ahh like a puppet Empire . But this is not changing the fact about anti non-muslim politics, genocide and deportation.
artu said:
Btw, the Hitler quote is fake and made up by a journalist of that time but that doesn't matter, Hitler can talk about an Armenian genocide because there is an Armenian genocide, and I advise to be very cautios when searching for such stuff, around half of what you'll come across will be fake.
Mr artu if we are talking in the term of the "weight" of the information, the quotes from the Wikipedia, such this one, by a leader of the Nazi German, Adolf Hitler, have a much more weight in my eyes, than a sourceleless clamming of the mr artu, the heroescommunity,com user, with the all respect .
So I will lead your advice, about a very careful accepting of the information in this case, thank you .
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 11, 2016 09:11 AM |
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Edited by artu at 13:07, 11 Nov 2016.
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First of all, the way your posting style is, do you seriously expect anybody to take the time to search proper links for you? I have linked here the speech of the most prominent Western academician on Middle-East and Ottoman Empire explaining how there is no evidence of killing orders but on the contrary a lot of evidence of them trying to stop the killings (which I find an exagerration btw, I think they mostly didnt care.) Besides, as I said in the beginning, I'm not home at the moment, I mostly use a tablet or phone to connect and giving multiple links is a pain in the ass with them, not to mention, my information relies on actual books on this subject and dozens of debates which are presented here regularly I had watched on the subject by the very academicans you talk about, not Wikipedia or something similar. My own university prepared a seminar about the genocide despite the reactions of the government, while I was a student there.
Secondly, yes, the final solution of the Nazis, for example, is documanted including top orders, it's so well documanted, they actually made the meeting where the high ranking Nazi officers took the decision into a film. It is known what each one of them suggested, about using gas instead of bullets, which way is most efficient and cheaper etc. And it is absurd to say the Nazis also protected Aryan territory, they were the invading force on offense and the Jews were in no means a threat to them, there was no Jewish rebellion or anything of that sort. When WW 2 ended, the Nazis didnt deny the Holocaust, on the contrary, most of their reaction was more like "we were doing humanity a favor by exterminating the jews. what's the big deal" Where as, all Ottoman officers got frustrated by the accusations and said they were only trying to defend territory and they saw no other way to do that. They were wrong about how that motivation justified their actions but none of them said something like "the Armenians are sub-human, we were doing the world a favor by terminating them." Actually, more than 1500 officers were court-martialed during the deportation, for mistreating the Armenians and both Talat and Cemal Pasha had openly ordered not to attack the convoys and that it will be considered a military crime but how dedicated they were to pursue this is another matter.
The nationalist ideology of the Young Turks, once again as I already said before, is a counter-nationalism, it is their way of responding to the the nationalism that spread to the -especially Christian- subjects of the empire, from Europe. And it is, in their mindset, a remedy to save the empire from breaking into pieces. But they don't see genetic sub-humanity in any of the nations they are fighting with. And Armenians live in Heartlands of the empire, Anatolia, it's not like some border Balkan province declaring independency, it does not only threaten the empire, it threatens homelands. Before the conflict, they were called millet-i sidika, the royal nation.
If you want to have a general grasp about the situation, you can watch this BBC documantery, which also specifically focuses on the genocide as well. The jihad, in the world of 1914, is just a formality. WW 1 has nothing to do with religious conflict in the traditional sense, it's empires against empires and empires against nations, no matter their religion: BBC - First World War, episode 4: Jihad
Edit: And here is the story of the Hitler quote: Link. When I tell you something is fake, I'm not making it up. I have no reason to lie and I'm not a liar to begin with, and I am not trying to cover up the genocide, you, on the other hand, are drawing absurd parallels between Nazizm and the situation in WW 1, as I keep saying, they are different things in every aspect.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted November 11, 2016 02:25 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 14:27, 11 Nov 2016.
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artu said:
The jihad, in the world of 1914, is just a formality. WW 1 has nothing to do with religious conflict in the traditional sense, it's empires against empires and empires against nations, no matter their religion: BBC - First World War, episode 4: Jihad
Besides, if it was really a jihad, how could the faithful muslims bear that they were allied with infidels? And not only infidels, but those who fought against them time and time again, how could Turks bear to fight alongside Austria and Hungary if not for political reasons?
How could a true religious war be waged alongside Christians?
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted November 11, 2016 02:43 PM |
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But christians, in fact, in islam, are not considered infidels, they are people of the book that in the muslim law benefits from advantages the infidels don't. Same thing for the jews.
Christians and jews have fought alongside muslim armies by the past, yet it was still a jihad.
It's just the modern trend of jihad, falsifying islam that created rules to follow, like when you're killed by a woman, you go to hell... A nonsense. #Frostysh
That said, sometimes (most of the time?) pragmatic policy of interests, especially within hard times of survival, surpasses ideology.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 11, 2016 03:03 PM |
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Well, with the exclusion of the early expansion age, I think no Islamic empire invaded corely with the motivation of spreading religion, conquest was part of their economy just like any other empire. It is known, for example, that the Ummayad Empire did not prefer people from conquared lands to convert, simply because it had costed them the additional cizye tax. Ideology is usually embedded in justifying expansion (like USA bringing democracy to backwater countries etc) but of course it is not a completely neutral element either. That being said, it would be very hard and quite pointless to dissect political conquest and theological idealism in Islam even in the traditional world, since it is basically born as a religion of conquest that positions itself as authoritarian state law. I don't remember who at the moment but there was a very insightful observation by a scholar who said "Muhhamed was trying to give birth to a nation, rather than a religion in the classical sense" which is spot on.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted November 11, 2016 03:11 PM |
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Edited by AlHazin at 15:13, 11 Nov 2016.
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artu said:
I don't remember who at the moment but there was a very insightful observation by a scholar who said "Muhhamed was trying to give birth to a nation, rather than a religion in the classical sense" which is spot on.
I would say a civilization, or a new way of thinking (philosophy) if you prefer. It was about building a community, and islam was and is clearly the key element here.
But since the Ummayads, as you said, a more pragmatic islam appeared. The one we're witnessing today, while it is more than the firsts'.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted November 11, 2016 03:15 PM |
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AlHazin said:
Christians and jews have fought alongside muslim armies by the past, yet it was still a jihad.
The difference is that those were soldiers inside the armies, not the armies of another nation. Christians too, especially Sicilians employed muslim mercenaries, as well as Moors employed landless knights.
What I'm talking about is that those nations were enemies of their faith and yet they fought alongside them, which in my eyes means that WW1 for the Ottomans wasn't really a religious war.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 11, 2016 03:16 PM |
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is there any truth to jews starting a civil war(s) in germany not long before ww2? i read something about that online; how that was the reasoning behind the jewish extermination. so far, this stuff is what pops up, when googled.
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted November 11, 2016 03:28 PM |
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Edited by AlHazin at 16:14, 11 Nov 2016.
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Neraus said:
The difference is that those were soldiers inside the armies, not the armies of another nation. Christians too, especially Sicilians employed muslim mercenaries, as well as Moors employed landless knights.
What I'm talking about is that those nations were enemies of their faith and yet they fought alongside them, which in my eyes means that WW1 for the Ottomans wasn't really a religious war.
Of course it wasn't a religious war, I agree with you on that. They employed the muftis to grabs people's heart for justification purposes. That's an example of pragmatic islam.
Nevertheless, nations in middle age for example were a vague concept compared to WWI and now. Frontiers weren't fix and nationalities didn't exist as today. So maybe the concept of fighting with a christian nation is an evolution of fighting with christian soldiers for muslims and vice versa.
@Fred : As far as I know, jews were feared in Europe because they had major funds and were amongst the greatest inventors behind many frank scientific and technological advancements, making them look like a threat to all the europeans.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 11, 2016 03:35 PM |
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@fred
No. That's false.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 12, 2016 09:51 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 09:54, 12 Nov 2016.
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I have not answered yesterday, because I was mega sleepy, and I need to read a lot of text, about Armenian Genocide. Today I have need to done some work at home, that I am a very do not like , but at least for now I have some time.
Also I need to remind, that I unable to watch the video from the Global Network, especially online, due to my connection issue.
Well for now I have a bucket of my delicious hand-made cheap snacks, and a bucket of the fruit jam, in addition to the time, so I will make my answer now I hope will be no darn electricity supply issues, at leas for some time ...
artu -
artu said:
First of all, the way your posting style is, do you seriously expect anybody to take the time to search proper links for you? I have linked here the speech of the most prominent Western academician on Middle-East and Ottoman Empire
1) Mr artu, if you are already started the discussion about such topic as the Armenian Genocide during the beginning of the 20th c. AD, with someone, I thought you have take the time to search something interesting on topic, not only your own words. This is will be interesting to me, to read something about the Armenian Genocide, but I hope it will be something sane.
Mr artu, if you are do not want to expose the sources of your information, and your aim just post the endless "blurring thesis".
You can at least to try make your statements clear to understand for me,
i.e.: first time you said that the "well trained officers of the Sultan" is responsible for the genocide, then you have said that the "chaos in the Empire" is responsible, then you have said "the target of the well organized deportation was only the ethnic minorities that has been involved in the nationalist rebellions" (that is including the children, women, pregnant women, old mans . . . *facepalm*), mr artu, do you see that your claims, is little bit non-correlative to each others , especially if we are planting it on the general picture . . .
I just wonder why did you even started the discussion with me then, if you do not want to expose some research on which you mr artu, creating your thesis, I mean this researches has been done not by yourself, so perhaps would be better to post some sources too?
2) Mr artu, about the "f the most prominent Western academician on Middle-East and Ottoman Empire", I have posted the reference on the most frigging prominent International Association, in the History of the Mankind . that is studying the evidence of the genocide politics of the past and present, I have made a references to the whole Universities, to the UN itself, to the European Parliament itself, and I can easily found a thousands of the "most prominent" scholars of the genocide itself, that will claim the Armenian Genocide as the well organized and committed by the Ottoman Empire government of that time.
So continuing the speculations on the authorities, my authorities is beating your authority, mr artu .
Btw, I will use works of the mr Taner Akçam, perhaps he is little bit younger than the ~100 years old, mr Bernard Lewis, but I think he is no less prominent in the case of the Armenian Genocide .
artu said:
explaining how there is no evidence of killing orders but on the contrary a lot of evidence of them trying to stop the killings (which I find an exagerration btw, I think they mostly didnt care.)
1) I will repeat again - I have doubts that you mr artu, in your life, ever will find the any direct orders of the genocide politics of the circa 1930 in the SU, and circa 1960 in the CPR.
And I have doubts, that you will find the direct order from a the leader of the Nazi German - A. Hitler, "to exterminate" the particular races on the particular territory.
The order - I mean something like that: . . .The Center, Adolf Hitler, to the all Commanders of the 88th Army SS, the order: "exterminate the all jewish in Berlin" . . .
And this is in the case of the Nazi German, many archives of which has been capture before it was destroyed. This is a VERY different from the Ottoman Empire case with it's Abdulas/Mehmets archives that is owned by some particular Abdula/Mehmet through ~ a century . . . .
Well after some searching through a holy-saint Internet I have an interesting article, about the Ottoman Empire archives (the archive that I considered as almost the same as the toilet paper in the case of the Armenian Genocide ), but mr Taner have a different opinion than frostysh (and yeah, I cannot pronounce his Turkish surname ).
this is the abstract form the work: Quote:
Abstract.
The author analyzes the Ottoman Archives as a source of information on the Armenian Genocide of 1915. He discusses the contradictory positions of two broad groups of scholars on the reliability of these archives, concluding that the Ottoman Archives agree with the information found in the archives of the United States, Britain, Germany, and Austria. He discusses the various categories of Ottoman documents, which mostly came out during the trials related to the Armenian Genocide, which took place from 1919 to 1921, and makes clear that there was a wide-ranging cleansing operation of the archives after the armistice in 1918. The author explores the reliability of this evidence and, based on the existing documents that remain, tries to reconstruct the structure and implementation of the genocide. He concludes that the Ottoman documents clearly show the genocidal intent of the Ottoman authorities and puts the Armenian genocide within the broader context of an overarching plan to homogenize the ethnic population of Anatolia.
The Ottoman Documents and the Genocidal Policies of the Committee for Union and Progress (İttihat ve Terakki) toward the Armenians in 1915 - including the fact that mr Taner, perhaps have some access to the particular archives, and he is speaks well with Turkish language, this is little bit different from the mr Bernad Lewis i.e. I am joking , anyway it is looks promising .
2) About the "lot of the evidience/orders to stop a killing" ,
well I will take only a very little example , according to mr Taner, the evidence like this one:
the work itself is promising to be interesting, but ahh, I am a total zero in this crazy Turkish language (I have do disrespect, I am just so exited ), so I need to trust to mr Taner, and his responsibility before the Scientific Community.
But mr artu you seem to be skilled in the amazing Turkish language, plz can you briefly explain the situation , actually, as I have mentioned already, I am interested in the genocidal politics of the past and resent
So I have interested to know a thing close to the truth about Armenian Genocide.
But what I can see in the work of the mr Taner? - something like that
Quote:
n 1913, the CUP showed a special interest in the ethnic make-up of Anatolia and that, as a result, under the leadership of Ziya Gokalp, it had dispatched experts whose task was to research and even to prepare a map of the region’s religious and ethnic constituents. He would also have realized that the deportation and exile of the Armenians was not a violent by-product of the war but, rather, was part and parcel of a plan to homogenize Anatolia on an ethno-religious basis. The poor quality of the help Lewy received in the matter of language (i.e., from those who translated for him) seriously handicapped his investigation. Can it be maintained that Lewy has brought a new approach to the task of examining the existing documents, that he has offered ‘‘a new viewpoint,’’ from a new perspective? Claiming that it supports their ‘‘official position,’’ people identified with the Turkish Foreign Ministry have distributed Lewy’s book free of charge. Likewise, the ASAM, (Center for Strategic Studies)—the propaganda center of the official Turkish denial policy on genocide—has honored Lewy with the High Award for Combating Crimes Against Humanity. It is incumbent upon Lewy, I think, to ponder seriously whether or not his theses are really original.
Guenter Lewy’s The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey Taner Akcam (pdf) - mr artu, how you, as a specialist in this case, can explain this thesis of mr Taner to the noob like a frostysh? Or you will again post something like "the sultan brutal well trained officer, defending their lands, chaos everywhere! prominent scholar Bernard Lewis - BBC" .
Besides a very interesting review has done by mr Taner. Perhaps I even will read it. . Also I have interest in the mr Lewy works about the Vietnam War, it is promising to be a very interesting.
artu said:
Besides, as I said in the beginning, I'm not home at the moment, I mostly use a tablet or phone to connect and giving multiple links is a pain in the ass with them, not to mention, my information relies on actual books on this subject and dozens of debates which are presented here regularly I had watched on the subject by the very academicans you talk about, not Wikipedia or something similar. My own university prepared a seminar about the genocide despite the reactions of the government, while I was a student there.
1) I am sorry, I do not remembering anything about the such problems of yours in your post.
2) It is a very good that you are so skilled in this topic , perhaps you will explain a many things to the frostysh, and to the other auditory that will read this forum, about such important things as the Armenian Genocide, and it's character.
3) I hope in this seminar, the name of the mr Taner, has not appeared , due to the obvious reasons, and I think in the end of that seminar, the conclusion was next - Young Turk did not planned nor executed the genocide, and of course the auditory was totally agree .
I just curios, how about works of mr Taner, have mentioned it on the seminar? What a conclusion was?
artu said:
Secondly, yes, the final solution of the Nazis, for example, is documanted including top orders, it's so well documanted, they actually made the meeting where the high ranking Nazi officers took the decision into a film. It is known what each one of them suggested, about using gas instead of bullets, which way is most efficient and cheaper etc.
Actually I have mentioned only the direct orders from the leader of the Nazi German government, Adolf Hitler himself,
But I will try to find in the Wikipedia some order-stuff about gas directly from the Nazi German Government (I mean the top of the government)
artu said:
And it is absurd to say the Nazis also protected Aryan territory, they were the invading force on offense and the Jews were in no means a threat to them,
1) I have mentioned not only jewish guys, but the other guys that has been exterminated by a direct killing or a forced labor, famine, etc. i.e. Nazi guys, exterminating the commie guys, due to the "defense" purposes, and actually they have used death marches too, applying to the SU PoW-s, a good parallel with the Ottoman Empire, <imo>
2) Of course the mainstream of the nazi-guys thinks that they protecting their nation, lands, etc, ESPECIALLY on the beginning of the "WWII", and jewish guys (again NOT only jewish guys) was like a offensive power that corrupting german nation, their lands, that caused a lose of the German guys in the "WWI", the economical stagnation of Germany, and the other mortal sins etc, etc.
I think almost no one nazi idiot of that times thought that he/she is primary on the offense, they think their offense is a defense of their future (the future of their nation, children, you know a drill ), revenge for the past etc.
We can make a many parallels with Ottoman Empire there, in this case, and not only with the Ottoman Empire. I think so.
artu said:
there was no Jewish rebellion or anything of that sort. When WW 2 ended, the Nazis didnt deny the Holocaust, on the contrary, most of their reaction was more like "we were doing humanity a favor by exterminating the jews. what's the big deal" Where as, all Ottoman officers got frustrated by the accusations and said they were only trying to defend territory and they saw no other way to do that. They were wrong about how that motivation justified their actions but none of them said something like "the Armenians are sub-human, we were doing the world a favor by terminating them."
1) There was some kind of the rebellions for the rural folks, before and circa 1930AD in the SU, there almost no evidence of the rebellions in the CPR circa 1960, and so what? The genocide happens. The end of story. You again speculating with the fact .
2) As I said, you have missed that I have mentioned not only jewish guys as a target of the nazi genocide stuff,
3) For whom mr artu, on your opinion the Nazi guys "gave a favor" in the beginning of the "WWII" by making repressions again jewish guys? To the Great British guys, France guys, SU guys , or USA guys, the Australia? or maybe they wipe out jewis guys from their lands, to and for "protect their children from the evil jewish ashkenazi or whatever they called" ? Mr artu, your claims is looks ridiculous to me.
I think you have a poor idea about so-called "polarization" stage of the genocide, and the role of propaganda there . . . . You to do something, the human usually need for a good moral reason,
Mr artu, there is COUNTLESS , amount of the rebellions in the European Empires in the [19th-20] c. AD, some Empire used the genocide politcs in this case, some not used.
I just imagined a British Empire, that started deportation and extermination the Irish guys, by their "well trained and brutal Queen officers" .
Btw, British guys is looks interesting for myself, they usually have used some snow innovations earlier than the other Empires on the Earth after the Enlightenment Era, i.e. a concentration camps, the industrial nationalism, etc, but very soon after the few attempts, they usually dropped away this snow, and continuing to live as they lived before , perhaps it is a mentality, I do not know, but then some idiot just monkey the GB-guys innovations, and using it by a full-scale with a horrific result .
<imo> This is actually what happened with the Ottoman Empire, the SU, the Nazi German guys, etc.
artu said:
Actually, more than 1500 officers were court-martialed during the deportation, for mistreating the Armenians and both Talat and Cemal Pasha had openly ordered not to attack the convoys and that it will be considered a military crime but how dedicated they were to pursue this is another matter.
1) The deaths of the 1500 officers tooks it's roots in the chaos during that time period of the Ottoman Empire, and due to the many other factors, such as War, deseases yeah
2) What Cemal Pasha mr artu, is this Cemal Pasha?
artu said:
Another problem besetting the government was the presence among local officials of those who helped the Armenians or condoned such help from others. In an order sent to the regions on 3 April 1916, Talaˆt, invoking one of Enver’s orders, threatened severe punishment for these officials. 91 In a telegram dated 24 July 1916, Talaˆt requested the arrest and return to Aleppo of two Armenians, traveling with documentation from the governorship of Aleppo, who had been observed secretly distributing money to the Armenians in Deir Zor in the heat of the summer. 92 The preceding discussion is not intended to examine the central government’s policy on relief work, but it nevertheless demonstrates that the government in question was not a weak entity unable to exercise control over the distant regions. On the contrary, what the evidence shows is a government so keen, and able, to maintain a tight grip that, in order to stop any help from reaching the Armenians, it intervened in the most minute details of such aid operations—even going to the trouble of tracking down two Armenians distributing money in Deir Zor so as to prevent any and all help for the doomed victims. Indeed, some Turkish officials, whom Cemal Pasha had authorized to help resettle the deported Armenians, disclosed in their personal memoirs that the aim of the deportations was not relocation but extermination. 93 133 Genocide Studies and Prevention 3:1 April 2008 Moreover, the authorities, whom Lewy portrays as feeble and impotent, proceeded harshly against those local officials who really believed that the policy was a genuine plan to resettle the Armenian deportees; some of these officials, as a result, were liquidated in various ways, and others were dismissed from their posts. The murders of at least six such officials are known: the governor general of Basra; the county executives of Lice, Mu ̈ntefak, Midyat, and Bafra; and the deputy county executive of Bes`iri. 94 Approximately twenty local officials were relieved of their posts, and some of them openly stated in their oral and written testimonies at the Istanbul courts-martial, as well as in their memoirs, that they were dismissed because they did not want to get involved in the anti-Armenian exterminatory operations.
from the critics of mr Lewy's book by mr Taner
Well respect to the Cemal Pasha then, from frostysh.
artu said:
The nationalist ideology of the Young Turks, once again as I already said before, is a counter-nationalism,
And again speculating with the motive, and forgetting about the actually genocide, but mr artu, such operations as a deportation, has been directed not only to the rival brigand of the armenian guys, but to the children, but to the intelectuals, but to the women, and so on .. And the genocide was directed not to the rival gangs, but to the whole non-muslim population of the Anatolia.
And actually I have a poor about the reasons, as I said before, the many Empires have VERY difficult times, and the many of the Empire successfully avoided the genocide politics.
For now I think that the Young Turks are guilty, they are guilty as hell mr artu.
I mean, your poor attemts to speculate with motives, and trying to polarize "Turkish-Armenian", the "reactionalism" as cause of the genocide, etc etc, is looks ridiculous for myself.
artu said:
it is their way of responding to the the nationalism that spread to the -especially Christian- subjects of the empire, from Europe. And it is, in their mindset, a remedy to save the empire from breaking into pieces.
And their respond was a full-scale deportation of the non-muslim population of the Anatolia, and the genocide of the armenian guys, a wonderful and a very smart answer . As I said, if the CUP were so imbecilic to invoke the genocide politics, this is their own problems.
And the Nazi Guys were on saving their future from the evil jewish, from the Slavic communism, from the romi guys that is plundring the pure blood of their nation , they trying to save their holy nation from being mixed with the other "sub-humans" nations too, they tried to obtain a living space for their childrens etc, etc
The Su guys trying to save SU too from the rebellions of the "parasite classes" , the Red Khmer trying to save their Country. The uncle Mao-guys tried to save their country from the "west oppression", and they desperately needs for a food and metal. ,
The list is a VERY long, and the Ottoman Empire is no exception from that.
artu said:
But they don't see genetic sub-humanity in any of the nations they are fighting with. And Armenians live in Heartlands of the empire
This is only because. with the all respect, the Ottoman Empire government propaganda of the "turkifing"/jihad/etc was a poor pathetic noob comparing to the Nazu Guys or SU/CPR guys, not even on the level I can say
artu said:
Anatolia, it's not like some border Balkan province declaring independency, it does not only threaten the empire, it threatens homelands. Before the conflict, they were called millet-i sidika, the royal nation.
Mr artu stop the speculation with the motives. It is looks like a "the serial killer , kills women and children because the serial killer has been beaten by the parents in the young age"
artu said:
If you want to have a general grasp about the situation, you can watch this BBC documantery, which also specifically focuses on the genocide as well. The jihad, in the world of 1914, is just a formality. WW 1 has nothing to do with religious conflict in the traditional sense, it's empires against empires and empires against nations, no matter their religion: BBC - First World War, episode 4: Jihad
No thank you : .
1) I have no proper internet connection to do this. I am only reading a text-based information in the Global Network.
2) I have a better sources of the information about the Armenian Genocide, the source like that:
Clark Univerisy - Taner Akçam, Ph.D. (www2)
I am not a historian, so I cannot judge the works of mr Taner from a professional point, but after a reading of the few pages of the mr Taner's critics for the mr Lewy book, I have impressed by a level of understanding wide range aspects of the life in the Ottoman Empire, of the beginning 20th c. AD, by mr Taner. It is indeed impressive.
artu said:
Edit: And here is the story of the Hitler quote: Link. When I tell you something is fake, I'm not making it up. I have no reason to lie and I'm not a liar to begin with, and I am not trying to cover up the genocide,
Mr artu, and what do you think, I will think about the posts in which the genocide described as the 'non-systematic', and 'non-well planned', and this is in the early industrial society with the strong bureaucracy, and centralized government, and Special Organization, etc etc.
artu said:
you, on the other hand, are drawing absurd parallels between Nazizm and the situation in WW 1, as I keep saying, they are different things in every aspect.
I drawing the absurd parallels between the Nazi stuff and the situation in the so-called "WW1" in the Ottoman Empire.
Nazi genocide stuff = pseudoscience (~30%) + traditional mythology (~30%) + nationalism (~30%) + other factors, such as Christianity (~10%)
Ottoman genocide stuff = nationalism (~40%) + Islam (~50%) + the other factors (~10%)
Imho, I see the pattern. As I said before, technically genocide politics in the early industrial/industrial societies (organized large amount of the peoples), looks a very similar.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 12, 2016 10:38 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:40, 12 Nov 2016.
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Frostysh, an empire trying to take down uprisings by brutal, unjustified measures doesn't mean every empire was supposed to do the same thing, it just means that their motive was something other than wiping out a race off the earth. Taner Akçam is actually the author of one of the books I read and nowhere in his book does he claim that was the hidden agenda of the government. Even the fact that they didint touch big cities is evidence of this alone. And there is nothing incoherent about my explanations about how the officers were trained to save the state first and how they didn't care about what the deportation turned into, they actually complete each other. But since you reply to something like "more than 1500 officers were court-martialed during the deportations for mistreating the Armenians" with "The deaths of the 1500 officers tooks it's roots in the chaos during that time period of the Ottoman Empire, and due to the many other factors, such as War, deseases yeah " it is very clear to me that either your English is below adequate level to be able to understand even the simplest of things or you are just trolling. So, I'll just go back to ignoring you.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 12, 2016 11:49 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 11:54, 12 Nov 2016.
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artu -
artu said:
Frostysh, an empire trying to take down uprisings by brutal, unjustified measures doesn't mean every empire was supposed to do the same thing, it just means that their motive was something other than wiping out a race off the earth
This brutal measures in the case of the Ottoman Empire, in the beginning of the 20th century AD, the 95% percent of the scholars is calling as the well-planned, systematic genocide. including such prominent scholars as above mentioned mr Taner.
I have already barely described, that the "skeletal" of the genocides in the 20th century, that has been invoked by a industrial societies governments, looks a very similar, even the patern can be used. And you again using "blurring" references to the "wipe entire race from the earth" , etc, which obviously little bit speculative.
artu said:
Taner Akçam is actually the author of one of the books I read and nowhere in his book does he claim that was the hidden agenda of the government. Even the fact that they didint touch big cities is evidence of this alone. And there is nothing incoherent about my explanations about how the officers were trained to save the state first and how they didn't care about what the deportation turned into, they actually complete each other.
Mr artu, I do not know what a book you have read, but you see, mr Taner is clearly stated that the genocide was prepared long before, and that was actually a part of the homogenization politics of the Ottoman Empire government in that time , and executed by the Young Turks guys. And this was not "spontaneous violence", "the initiative of the well trained sultan brutal officers", etc, but a a politics, and long term politics of the CUP government.
Also mr Taner, have mentioned an interesting facts, about "clearing archives" by a RoT government ...
And also mr Taner mentioned about the killing of the governors that trying to provide actually a deportation politic, but not a genocide, as has been ordered from the "center", in the killing of this peoples, mr Taner blaming the "agenda", as you mentioned.
I have already used the example of the "Treblinka 2", where in the attempt to hide the evidences of the genocide, in the VERY difficult conditions, Nazi guys planted even a frigging forests, destroyed the all buldings to the ground, etc.
And you tried to appeal in your posts , that there is not orders (a frigging papers to be more preciously) lefts after a frigging CENTURY of the total control of the government, that is clearly showing that the Special Organization or the CUP has been involved in the genocide. . . *facepalm*
Btw, the so-called "homogenization" is a central part of the Nazi ideology, as you may know.
artu said:
But since you reply to something like "more than 1500 officers were court-martialed during the deportations for mistreating the Armenians" with "The deaths of the 1500 officers tooks it's roots in the chaos during that time period of the Ottoman Empire, and due to the many other factors, such as War, deseases yeah " it is very clear to me that either your English is below adequate level to be able to understand even the simplest of things or you are just trolling. So, I'll just go back to ignoring you.
First off that was a joke (but I have forgot to post that), I did this joke because your, mr artu, continuous speculations with a death toll, etc, that is makes me boring (perhaps I have a bad humor... ).
Second off, WAIT , do not run away, mr artu,I though you will explain something interesting about history of the Ottoman Empire of that time.
Especially I am interesting in the works of mr Taner Akçam (this guy with the unpronounceable Turkish name), you know the Turkish language, as I think, so you can a many interesting about!
P.S. Mr artu, also I will promote to you a TOR-network measures or something like that, well that is not a CPR, or something like that, but still . . . .
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