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| Thread: Making better Adventure Map |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 17, 2016 11:23 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 12:20, 18 Jan 2016.
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The point of keeping things symbolic rather than reallife means that no object towers over any other. Basically, you can segment your map in tiles, with every object occupying one or more such tiles. Each object (temporary objects too, like Heroes, monsters, resources and artifacts) should be contained within the tile in such a way that no portion sticks out excessively into the tile that's directly above it from the point of view of the player - otherwise, that tile should simply be a part of that object. Heroes3 does the latter for instance with the Towns on the map.
This works both in 2D as well as in 3D, but it's very tempting to go all out on the graphics and forget about the scale of these objects relative to their tile size. It's a mistake they made in Heroes5 most definately (I guess they even didn't consider it there), as well as in Heroes6 and Heroes7.
Age of Wonders 3 does this quite well, actually.
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Drakon-Deus 
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 18, 2016 08:58 AM |
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Heroes 5 and Heroes 6 design and approach to Adventure Map took some getting used to, I think I was not the only one with that problem, specifically for 5. For 6 it wasn't much of a surprise.
I haven't said anything about 7 not having played it yet.
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yodus
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 18, 2016 09:49 AM |
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Edited by yodus at 10:00, 18 Jan 2016.
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Great job 3LiON!
I would not say it better and I think the main issue of post-heroes III/IV maps is the scale and over-saturation with complex objects.
Heroes map actually represents a tactic board - so it need to be clean, proportion-less and readable. All objects should be designed in compact way, should be tight and symbolic - this applies especially to decorations (trees, rocks, inactive buildings etc..) they should be small and simple not cluttering the scene (although they are very important - building mood and soul of the map)
In Heroes III despite of high density of an objects everything was clear and beautiful.
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted January 18, 2016 02:49 PM |
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Maurice said:
The point of keeping things symbolic rather than reallife means that no object towers over any other. Basically, you can segment your map in tiles, with every object occupying one or more such tiles. Each object (temporary objects too, like Heroes, monsters, resources and artifacts) should be contained within the tile in such a way that no portion sticks out excessively into the tile that's directly above it from the point of view of the player - otherwise, that tile should simply be a part of that object. Heroes3 does the latter for instance with the Towns on the map.
This works both in 2D as well as in 3D, but it's very tempting to go all out on the graphics and forget about the scale of these objects relative to their tile size. It's a mistake they made in Heroes5 most definately (I guess they even didn't consider it there), as well as in Heroes6 and Heroes7.
Age of Wonders 3 does this quite well, actually.
This will help greatly! Thanks.
I will make another iteration.
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Creature Scale mod (patch 2.2.1 compatible)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 18, 2016 05:17 PM |
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Maurice said:
The point of keeping things symbolic rather than reallife means that no object towers over any other. Basically, you can segment your map in tiles, with every object occupying one or more such tiles. Each object (temporary objects too, like Heroes, monsters, resources and artifacts) should be contained within the tile in such a way that no portion sticks out excessively into the tile that's directly above it from the point of view of the player - otherwise, that tile should simply be a part of that object.
That is obviously a solution, but I don't think that's necessarily the only solution that will work.
H5 map might have taken some time to get used to, but H5 maps worked perfectly well imo. Yes, you needed to rotate map view, but why is that such a huge problem? I was rather impressed with 3Lions analysis of Nivals solution to the map problem, I had never noticed this myself, but he's completely right: By increasing the gamma of the "active" map elements, it's very easy to spot which elements do something. And I think the light effects made it rather easy to spot "hidden" objects, even if these are out of view from your current angle.
I think the problem with H6 and particularly H7 maps from the screenshots shown above are exactly that they lack those properties of the H5 maps. So just because H7 maps don't work optimally, that does not necessarily mean that going back to iconic maps like H2/H3 is the necessary solution.
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What will happen now?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 18, 2016 05:24 PM |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 18, 2016 05:40 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 17:41, 18 Jan 2016.
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Alcibiades said:
Yes, you needed to rotate map view, but why is that such a huge problem?
It didn't stop me from playing H5 but is a bit tedious, in comparison to when you could see all in one viewpoint.
Maurice said:
Age of Wonders 3 does this quite well, actually.
I've been looking to some screens as I still didn't play this game yet, and I have to say it looks quite alright indeed.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 18, 2016 05:55 PM |
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alcibiades said:
H5 map might have taken some time to get used to, but H5 maps worked perfectly well imo. Yes, you needed to rotate map view, but why is that such a huge problem? I was rather impressed with 3Lions analysis of Nivals solution to the map problem, I had never noticed this myself, but he's completely right: By increasing the gamma of the "active" map elements, it's very easy to spot which elements do something. And I think the light effects made it rather easy to spot "hidden" objects, even if these are out of view from your current angle.
well you might be on your own there, or in the minority anyway, I was under the impression they switched to a more fixed angle in Heroes 6 in response to all the complaints about having to rotate maps endlessly just to see crap lol
that was my experience too, I thought the adventure map scale of elements, the representations and the camera and view in Heroes 5 were the worst in the series as a whole lol
can't believe I'm saying Heroes 6 and 7 handled something better lol
however they still utterly suck in terms of scale and readability, I would really insist these 3D games are doing it wrong with the simplest things like size of trees and mountains, they are much, much too big, and if they stopped chasing this gritty detailed realism in favour of iconic, strategically meaningful depictions it would be a good shout for everyone lol
you know which game did it right? Civilization 5 lol
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 18, 2016 06:42 PM |
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verriker said:
well you might be on your own there, or in the minority anyway, I was under the impression they switched to a more fixed angle in Heroes 6 in response to all the complaints about having to rotate maps endlessly just to see crap lol
Fair enough, I accept that.
That screenshot from Age Of Wonders looks great.
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What will happen now?
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted January 18, 2016 06:51 PM |
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OMG! I am currently stuck having to agree, completely with Verriker!
It is so true that Civ. 5 up-to Brave New World v.1.x, has truly hit the spot but, Civ. Revolution really made the game way more attractive and, the cities were growing on the adventure map as the developments of the cities were added to it(well...to a certain limit of expansion).
What the Might and Magic series newer titles will need to do is: Bring back the world map(especially to the Huge size type).
1. More Ocean waters, wide rivers and, large or small lakes on the map.
2. Way less Mountain ranges and, way more forests with plenty of clearings as to suggest savanna plains.
3. The possibility to start a village out of a mere large tent by using a generous amount of peasants(level one creatures of each faction of the game). Note: That was possible on numerous pre-made maps of Heroes II(2).
4. Bringing the possibility to start as you the ruler of a small tribe like faction that has no weapons to use for defense other than magical spells known by you the all mighty and powerful Despot Elder Mage. Once the settlement is done(village hall is the ruler`s throne building), the blacksmith is required for the very first tools at farming and, construction materials. The upgraded blacksmith is a factory for both soldiers weaponry and war machines of the respected faction, of course. Then and, only then, the usual way of developing your kingdom is now, underway.
5. Shipyards must be built in a seashore bound town or right next to the player`s properly developed town or city.
I do agree to Nival`s foresight of a realistic landscape type of an early game setup. As long as your City can have a very high look-out tower built within itself that opens up the option to zoom out to the whole territory`s four corners of the new Imperial City`s influence capabilities. That tower would open up the possibility of giving the player a better idea of where to go explore next on the territory + spot where the mineral mines should be built or flagged(abandoned ancient ones). Plus, a new mineral manipulation building that would be built slightly outside of the walls of the main city called: Foundry(not the golem dwelling) would greatly cut the costs of building the most expensive upper level creature dwellings and, war machines as well.
Anyone agreeing to all of this game changing and revolutionalizing of the Might and Magic Heroes Series` Franchise? I certainly do.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 18, 2016 07:09 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Fair enough, I accept that.
not trying to write you off, it's just I remember hearing those complaints were pretty constant lol
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 18, 2016 11:20 PM |
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I'm with Verriker in this one. I really hated those humongous trees, especially on maps which were rather highly forested (like some of the Elven ones, if I am not mistaken - been a while since I played the game). Not to mention that it had to render all that stuff too; in really forested areas, I had noticable graphics lag.
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted January 19, 2016 11:47 AM |
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Edited by Aionb at 12:14, 19 Jan 2016.
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The Age of Wonders screen looks great, indeed.
Although, the one from Succession Wars looks spectacular and I couldn't think of maps more clear than the ones of H2 and H3.
As for the H5 maps, I never had any issues with it, I can even say I enjoy them. Besides, I never got any pain in my mouse from rotating the camera.
And I also agree with 3lion's "light effects analysis" regarding the H5 maps.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 25, 2016 12:07 AM |
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Ok so I just got back to H5 as it was a while and applied latest graphical patch from Xuxo, on clean TotE 3.1, thought of sharing a couple of screens in this thread.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted January 25, 2016 03:40 AM |
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Map makers should restrain themselves as to...
put so much unnecessary map objects. That only contributes at clogging the map with unnatural stuff + clogging the eyesight of the player(s).
The land mass is not large enough and, the overall map size is ridiculously miniatured up.
Plus, why make large towns as visitable areas of the map that looks like it has defensive walls all around it but, has no means to defend or restrict access to it by Heroes willing to cross its main gate entrance. A town that is not flaggable or even, conquerable to your own faction. Just like those large castles that gets to offer training to visiting Heroes instead of being a creature dwelling or a flaggable and usable small city.
Even though these maps have beautifully rendered graphics, this clogging of map objects is still, a enormous annoyance.
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fiur
Promising
Supreme Hero
Map Creator
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posted January 27, 2016 05:06 PM |
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I've made a few map's for HoMM5. Barely touched the one for HoMM6 and 7.
Main reason is that the editor for HoMM 7 needs alot of juice to run 
but I guess there is no way to fix that
(I just miss the old days in the HoMM 5 editor)
I'm pretty sure if the editor for HoMM 7 was easier to run we would see alot of good maps but as it is now well........
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yodus
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 09, 2016 10:00 PM |
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fiur said:
I've made a few map's for HoMM5. Barely touched the one for HoMM6 and 7.
Main reason is that the editor for HoMM 7 needs alot of juice to run
but I guess there is no way to fix that
(I just miss the old days in the HoMM 5 editor)
I'm pretty sure if the editor for HoMM 7 was easier to run we would see alot of good maps but as it is now well........
I've loved Your maps! Me and my wife spent days playing them :-) Now after terrible HoMM6 we tray to play HoMM7 - and it's quite good, but buggy though.
It's a pitty that You can't create maps for new version - back then on the H5 times we have searched only for Fiur and Ogo maps on Maps4heroes.com.
Cheers!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 09, 2016 10:39 PM |
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fiur said:
I've made a few map's for HoMM5.
Loved your H5 maps. Dragon Hill is best H5 map, played it ten times more than any other map.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 10, 2016 04:29 AM |
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So....
I haven't touched the game for some time now, but I kept thinking about, especially why doesn't the game drive me back.
Unlike others, I don't have the common problems with the game. But one that I could pinpoint is that the game lack well crafted custom maps that is
1: not a kaleidoscope style mirrored area
2: Promotes different approaches to the game
3: Are memorable for a long, long time.
When I think of memorable maps. Names like Seven lakes and Teleporters from H2. Maps that looked good, played good, played differently based on your starting position, had variations in goals and never got old.
I fail to see such maps ever since H5,
Most maps have the cookie-cutter feeling of one area copied few time so that everybody has the same chances
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 10, 2016 08:33 AM |
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Judging by the screenshots in this thread, there's been a trend of the adventure map looking increasingly busy. The H2 and H3 maps are clean and well-arranged, and manage to display the artistic spirit of the game without being too elaborate. H4 does okay too, though it starts to go into a direction of too much foliage. H5's map was cleaner than H4's but suffered from too much unnecessary glowing. H6 made the glowing worse and had a bad color palette, and was even worse than H4 at the problem of distracting trees and foliage. H7 restored normal color but continues to have the problem of too much stuff.
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Eccentric Opinion
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