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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: it's not the end of the world, but...
Thread: it's not the end of the world, but... This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 08, 2016 11:41 AM
Edited by artu at 11:42, 08 Mar 2016.

@Stevie

The existence of evolution (just like the existence of gravity, atoms, heliocentric solar system etc) is falsifiable like any other scientific theory. However, in these cases, in practicality, the evidence for these are so strong, so various and comes from so many fields, the falsifiability is just hypothetical. Because them turning out wrong would mean so many studies were so crucially wrong, yet somehow still pointing out the same direction in such an obvious way, it was as if the universe was designed to direct us to miscalculation. Falsifiability is first of all an insurance system that leaves the category of blind (mystical) speculation out the door. Example: X tribes believe their souls are stolen when someone takes a photo of them. You can not falsify this belief, because there can be no way to measure if your "soul" is stolen whether someone takes a picture of you or not. Consciousness, however, can be studied scientifically by neurology with falsifiable suggestions.

Now, geocentric worldview is an ancient worldview based on our five senses, evolution is certainly not. There is no "long age dogma." There is modern geology with zillions of methods to calculate the age of rocks, fossils and layers of earth. There is not an alternative "young-earth geology" but only mythical stories which are completely irrelevant and which are not based on any sort of observation or calculation. Some well-preserved tissue is not something as fundamentally contradictory to this as you wishfully imagine and it certainly is not a threat to the theory of evolution. It may indeed be a puzzle waiting to be solved, in this case, Mary Schweitzer suggests that "iron particles may play a part in the preservation of soft tissue over geologic time" as you also mentioned but there are some objections, that's how the process works. But you know what Schweitzer does NOT do and which is certainly not true? She doesn't suggest a 6000 year old world (or a million year old one) in which humans and dinosaurs walk side by side. I can't express to you how weird it is in this age, to even try to explain why the Flintstones isn't real. When a cop sees something fishy about a bullet angle, he can rework the crime scene, him not suggesting that "maybe bullets move like in those Bugs Bunny cartoons" isn't modifying evidence into paradigm, it's basic deduction. The gap between 65 million years and a few thousand is not something that you would drop only because you have come across some tissue preserved much better than it was supposed to. You try to explain the tissue, sure, but it does not lead you to young earth creationism. Not because of bias, but because of the zillions of studies that proves the contrary: There is a proportion to which evidence can indicate what and there are really so many scientific methods to age the earth and to put the dinosaurs in their time frame.

And it's ironic that you talk about keeping an open mind and trying to reverse a terminology with words such as "long age dogma" since the reason motivating you is your faith in a real dogma. The people who object to evolution only do it because of religious indoctrination and please don't deny you fit in that category perfectly. It's a lost cause. Evolution is no longer a matter of debate in that sense. A theory explaining 3.5 billion years of life on earth will certainly be modified along the way with new discoveries, new technology and fresh ideas. But at this point, the  reality of evolution is as intact as the existence of molecules or microbes. In the 19th century, people thought there was no way to split the atom, this turned out wrong but we didn't switch back to the theory of 4 basic  elements of fire, water, earth and air, did we? We are not going back to an Earth aged thousand years or Noah's ship. The sooner you realize this the better.

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Stevie
Stevie


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posted March 08, 2016 12:12 PM

I rest my case.
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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
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posted March 08, 2016 06:58 PM

Doomforge said:
However, viruses itself always have "flaws" - they are either hard to acquire, hard to spread, or their lethality is insufficient. From the ones known to mankind (thus not genetically engineered), there is no "ultimate" virus out there.


i can think of one that's pretty ultimate. it goes around on two legs.

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markkur
markkur


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Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted March 09, 2016 02:45 AM
Edited by markkur at 02:46, 09 Mar 2016.

Well guys the last bit was by far sarcasm but I forgot the smiley. But the fact remains they spent a lot of moolah to dig up the bonezzz baby.

Not to crush your theories or anything or even ramp-up the debate but there is a very important aspect to world-wide agents that you are forgetting...the health of the population. Plaques killed millions after what?...famines.

How many think people today are eating as healthy as people say, during WW1, when in 1918 a flu virus killed millions?

Today because we are all crammed in cities and not growing our own fresh-anything...we eat long-dead-everything and what is supposed to be fresh often is just bio-snowized rot. I can bring a pristine banana home and in 2-3 days it looks like it's been laying on jungle ground for weeks.<L>

But believe what you will about why they HAD to dig those bones up.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 09, 2016 03:05 AM
Edited by artu at 03:07, 09 Mar 2016.

Well, some say we eat more sterile now and some say we eat synthetic stuff. Back when I was a kid, home made yogurt use to turn sour in 3-4 days max, factory produced yogurt stays in the fridge for a month and it's all fine. But when you read about it, the factory owner says "Of course, that would be so, I produce yogurt with the latest technology under most sanitary conditions, why should it go sour when it contains almost no bacteria." But then, some health expert says some of that bacteria was actually good for your stomach...

Almost one thing everybody old enough agrees with is this though, food was much more tasty before the 70's/80's. I can't know, I wasn't there. Most probably, you can't have pure organic farm products for everyone  forever when the world population is 7 billion and it keeps on increasing. I wouldn't assume there is enough farming field for that. Unless you don't destroy the environment even more.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted March 09, 2016 03:42 AM

artu said:
But when you read about it, the factory owner says "Of course, that would be so, I produce yogurt with the latest technology under most sanitary conditions, why should it go sour when it contains almost no bacteria."

No dairy processor would say that.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 09, 2016 03:57 AM
Edited by artu at 04:26, 09 Mar 2016.

Well, he did. A journalist wrote an article about her concerns about factory produced yogurt not going sour and next day, in her column, she quoted the reply of the owner (or representative) of X brand yogurts saying that was because their yogurt was produced under ideal conditions and it didnt contain the bacteria home made yogurts did. It was followed by a third party objection saying those bacteria are good for you. I remember the name of the journalist, I would track down the article but it's in Turkish, so it wouldnt mean much to link it here.


Edit: Well, I tracked it down and read it again anyway, it is in Turkish but there are some bacteria names which may mean something to you since you are a scientist. (Link) It's from 2010, so it turns out I forgot a lot of detail. He doesn't only mention bacteria. The part where things are numbered roughly translates like this:

1- We produce our yogurt from high quality milk.
2- We produce it under airtight conditions so there is no mold, blood, micro organisms, animal hair etc in the milk.
3- There are two types of bacteria when producing yogurt. A type causes sour yogurt, B type causes sweet yogurt. Traditional yogurts contain the bacteria that causes them to sour while ours don't.
4- You should cool it down immediately after production.  
5- The chain of cooling process shouldn't be broken. We don't.

So, I guess my sentence should have been, he said "why should it go sour when it contains almost no  type A bacteria" to be more accurate. Of course, you can't have fermentation without no bacteria at all.

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 09, 2016 04:35 AM

I can just picture it, John Candy look-a-like boss shouting: "The oil is not gonna crawl itself to me pocket, so START DIGGING BOYS!"




Money, money, money... But, Mr. Candy look-a-like it's fossil researsh not oil hunt. Pfft it's just publicity stunt, besides you know how much they pay from these corpses? Drill, drill gonna make me mill mill millions. Are feeling it?

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted March 09, 2016 02:57 PM

Well Artu, you actually added another unknown...the health of the environment and its effects on the health of the populations. I doubt it any stretch to say for some reason folks auto-immunes are more often under attack these days. Allergies are huge business now.


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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 09, 2016 03:03 PM
Edited by fred79 at 15:08, 09 Mar 2016.

markkur said:
Well Artu, you actually added another unknown...the health of the environment and its effects on the health of the populations. I doubt it any stretch to say for some reason folks auto-immunes are more often under attack these days. Allergies are huge business now.


the kids my mom babysits are constantly sick. she's always getting sick because of them. my sister has the same problem. people are getting sick a lot because of the hell the upside-down weather is playing on people.

to say that people are immune, or that we have vaccines, to something that is ancient, and mutates anyway, is more than a little optimisitic.

but whatever. number 3 is just me worrying anyway. i worry a lot about human stupidity/curiousity. being curious about things that kill, can kill you. just ask that nature show guy who was eaten by a bear. or the crocodile hunter. anyone feel free to add on to the list here; as those are the only two i can remember atm. i'm sure there's a plague version in there somewhere.



...and let's not forget the very important point that was brought up: the gulf is sitting on an ocean of oil. what better cover to mine it without pissing people off again about the oil catastrophe in the gulf that people are still seeing the effects of, than to tell people that it's for science? relating to the death of dinosaurs, no less. how cool!

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 10, 2016 09:01 AM

Dudes, the longterm viewpoint of the human species doesn't differ from the viewpoint of the individual: as individuals, we have this life, but one day it will end, and it may do so in a very uncomfortable way. We know that, so taking a couple of calculated risks in life isn't, or shouldn't be, much of a problem, and for most it isn't: driving, flying, taking drugs, taking part in a hot dog eating contest, you name it.

And not so surprisingly, the longterm outlook of the species isn't different: the sun will die eventually, the planet as well, and while that may take a long time to come, there are a lot of hazards along the way, endangering even that life span; self-inflicted idiocies like competing in a hot dog eating contest ARE part of the equation as well - and there are a lot of scenarios covering that, like nuclear war, tailor-made virus rampages, global warming and so on -, but in the end, that's only part of it: there are a lot more scenarios where the survival of the species is endangered by events out of human control - say, the Zombie virus or an alien attack or meteoric impacts, for example, which brings us to the issue.

If you look at the impact events, there have been quite a few, and if they are big enough, obviously the effect they may have on the ecosphere can be devastating.
I don't think there is any doubt nowadays, that the Chicxulub is responsible for the extinction (direct AND indirect) of a plethora of species, the dinosaurs among them, because the timing is precise: 64.98 million years ago - can it really be happenstance that it coincides with the mass extinction of life happening around the time? 70-75% of all species died at the time!

If you look at the sheer numbers, that lump of rock had a diameter of 10 to 15 kilometers; it must have looked like a burning moon descending with an estimated destructive energy of 100 TERAtons of TNT. 2 million times more powerful than the most powerful manmade explosion delivering 50 Megatons of TNT.
That's a lot of fireworks.

Practically spoken - they are drilling there since the 1950s and 60s! When they went as deep as 3.500 meters already. There was one in 2002, going as deep as 1.500 meters.

And surprise, surprise - has anybody heard of "geothermal energy"? This isn't science fiction, it's part of the renewable energy sources. In Germany, in 2014 a geothermal power plant started electricity production, drilling over 5.500 meters deep, reaching temperature layers of 140 degrees celsius.

Still, as immense as it may sound, it's ridiculous, when you look at the bigger picture. We have a 20.000 meter difference between highest mountain peak and deepest ocean rift. The deepest drilling ever made is about 12.200 meters deep.

Actually, we don't know a lot about the inner life of our planet. In theory, the outer crust is up to 40 Kilometers deep - not more than the skin. Then there is the upper mantle, from kilometer 40-660, and the lower mantle from kilometer 660-2.900. Then there is the outer core from kilometer 2.900-5.100, with the last 1.200 being (half of the) inner core.

What's a couple thousand meters here?

Fun fact: In Germany we tried to drill deep as well for scientific purposes. They had to stop in just over 9.000 meters because it was a lot hotter there than expected from the geothermal gradient.

So wtf, guys? We humans may actually be the result of the Chicxulub impact: when 70-75% of the living species of a planet are killed by such a comparatively small cosmic event, from an evolutionary point of view - and that's for all of you believing in something like a gaia consciousness ort whetever else it may be called - the need for a species arises that can handle something like that. In the cosmic time frame we, as a species now won't take long anymore, until we are able to early enough detect all potentially disastrous cosmic objects on collision course and destroy them, before they can do any harm.

And you know what? It's something our planet WANTS. It doesn't do to avoid göobal warming, have national parks and wildlife preserving places anywhere and so on, only to helplessly watch, how a 20 km big stone hits earth and ends the world, right?

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 27, 2016 08:25 PM

something else to worry about

Quote:
For the first time, researchers have found a person in the United States carrying a bacteria resistant to antibiotics of last resort, an alarming development that the top U.S. public health official says could mean "the end of the road" for antibiotics.

The antibiotic-resistant strain was found last month in the urine of a 49-year-old Pennsylvania woman. Department of Defense researchers determined that carried a strain of E. coli resistant to the antibiotic colistin, according to a study published Thursday in Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy, a publication of the American Society for Microbiology. The authors wrote that the discovery "heralds the emergence of a truly pan-drug resistant bacteria."

Colistin is the antibiotic of last resort for particularly dangerous types of superbugs, including a family of bacteria known as CRE, which health officials have dubbed "nightmare bacteria." In some instances, these superbugs kill up to 50 percent of patients who become infected. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has called CRE among the country's most urgent public health threats.

It's the first time this colistin-resistant strain has been found in a person in the United States. Last November, public health officials around the globe reacted with alarm when Chinese and British researchers reported finding the colistin-resistant strain in pigs, raw pork meat and in a small number of people in China. The deadly strain was later discovered in Europe and elsewhere.

“It basically shows us that the end of the road isn’t very far away for antibiotics -- that we may be in a situation where we have patients in our intensive-care units, or patients getting urinary tract infections for which we do not have antibiotics,” CDC Director Tom Frieden in an interview Thursday.

“I’ve been there for TB patients. I’ve cared for patients for whom there are no drugs left. It is a feeling of such horror and helplessness,” Frieden added. “This is not where we need to be.”

CDC officials are working with Pennsylvania health authorities to interview the patient and family to identify how she may have contracted the bacteria, including reviewing recent hospitalizations and other healthcare exposures. CDC hopes to screen the patient and other contacts to see if others might be carrying the organism. Local and state health departments will also be collecting cultures as part of the investigation.

Scientists and public health officials have long warned that if the resistant bacteria continue to spread, it could seriously limit available treatment options. Routine operations could become deadly. Minor infections could become life-threatening crises. Pneumonia could be more and more difficult to treat.

Already, doctors had been forced to rely on colistin as a last-line defense against antibiotic-resistant bacteria. The drug is hardly ideal. It is more than half a century old and can cause serious damage to a patient’s kidneys. And yet, because doctors have run out of weapons to fight a growing number of infections that evade more modern antibiotics, it has become a critical tool in fighting off some of the most tenacious infections.

Bacteria develop antibiotic resistance in two ways. Many acquire mutations in their own genomes that allow them to withstand antibiotics, although that ability can't be shared with pathogens outside their own family.

Other bacteria rely on a shortcut: they get infected with something called a plasmid, a small piece of DNA, carrying a gene for antibiotic resistance. That makes resistance genes more dangerous because plasmids can make copies of themselves and transfer the genes they carry to other bugs within the same family as well as jump to other families of bacteria, which can then "catch" the resistance directly without having to develop it through evolution.

The colistin-resistant E. coli found in the Pennsylvania woman has this type of resistance gene.

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NoobX
NoobX


Undefeatable Hero
Now, this is a paradox...
posted May 27, 2016 08:35 PM
Edited by NoobX at 20:43, 27 May 2016.

GG, well played.

It's time we stopped taking drugs and started working on alternative ways of battling disease.  I sincirely hope that nanotechnology would develop to that point where we could send mini robots iniside ourselves to kill off the pathogens just like they do it in movies or whatever.  
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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Nerf Herder
posted May 27, 2016 09:05 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 21:26, 27 May 2016.

This is a major reason why healthcare needs to be heavily regulated by a wider governing body, because right now the industry encompasses some self-destructive attitudes, 1) It is short-term driven (You have a hurt, you want the hurt to go away ASAP, end of story). 2) It is financially driven (this can be true in a country with an evolved national healthcare system or in the more Spartan environment of the US, because either way you're writing up a prescription and sending it along to somebody that needs to supply it), 3) It encourages bad health habits by instantaneously providing easy fixes, which in turn are driving these anti-biotic resistant strains.

A high level of human inter-connectivity is a very recent phenomenon in our own history as a species, but in the world of bacteria, they are light years ahead of us. The more interconnected we get, the more interconnected bacteria get, and these strains will kill us by the billions if we don't do something deliberate about it, and something deliberate will never happen if healthcare is driven through individual wants without respect to the wider global community. The public is grossly over-medicated in the use of antibiotics in so many cases where it isn't truly necessary, but nonetheless prescribed as this sort of overly cautious insurance on behalf of the medical professionals. Though I hardly blame the medical professionals themselves. We can - at least in large part - thank the cancerous tumors of the world known as lawyers for that one. So the legal battle will have to multi-faceted, because you won't only need to better regulate how liberally these antibiotics are being prescribed, but you'll simultaneously need to provide more protections to keep sharks off of doctors asses for committing make-believe malpractice. You can't use antibiotics as this almost default medication anytime somebody sneezes and goes to the clinic. It's 3rd degree genocide if you do that for too many consecutive decades.  

Thus ends the theorycrafting. These negotiations in effect will be extremely complex and nuanced and can't possibly be thoroughly picked apart in an online post. I'll just say that it's not a job I would want, but the issue will be integrally connected to discussion over insurance and malpractice. They will also - if they are going to have any power behind them - need to be negotiated on an international level, since the emerging strains and future emerging strains themselves are international and unrestricted by borders. The issue of disease-control (along with environment) is another reason why the Old Order of fully autonomous nations is no longer equipped to properly respond to the dangers of the present day.
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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


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Nerf Herder
posted May 28, 2016 02:56 AM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 03:14, 28 May 2016.

markkur said:

Not to crush your theories or anything or even ramp-up the debate but there is a very important aspect to world-wide agents that you are forgetting...the health of the population. Plaques killed millions after what?...famines.

How many think people today are eating as healthy as people say, during WW1, when in 1918 a flu virus killed millions?

Today because we are all crammed in cities and not growing our own fresh-anything...we eat long-dead-everything and what is supposed to be fresh often is just bio-snowized rot. I can bring a pristine banana home and in 2-3 days it looks like it's been laying on jungle ground for weeks.<L>

But believe what you will about why they HAD to dig those bones up.


Ridiculous.

Plagues are extraordinarily more dangerous when accompanied with malnutrition,  because the percentage of contraction and the fatality percentage both multiply,  but the rest is pure nonsense. People in 1918 are NOT better equipped to fight off disease,  and they would have dreamed to have the diversity of produce and products that we now enjoy. Only a contemporary person looking backwards would ever want that.

Obesity might be epidemic because of poor diet combined with inactivity,  and cause millions of premature deaths from heart attacks, not to mention their overall quality of life goes down,  but it's not like their immune system stops working. A fat body is far, far better off than a starving one or one with scurvy. We are leaps and bounds better equipped to handle a deadly influenza strain.
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markkur
markkur


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Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted May 28, 2016 03:04 PM

Blizzardboy said:
Ridiculous.

Plagues are extraordinarily more dangerous when accompanied with malnutrition,  because the percentage of contraction and the fatality percentage both multiply,  but the rest is pure nonsense. People in 1918 are NOT better equipped to fight off disease,  and they would have dreamed to have the diversity of produce and products that we now enjoy. Only a contemporary person looking backwards would ever want that.

Obesity might be epidemic because of poor diet combined with inactivity,  and cause millions of premature deaths from heart attacks, not to mention their overall quality of life goes down,  but it's not like their immune system stops working. A fat body is far, far better off than a starving one or one with scurvy. We are leaps and bounds better equipped to handle a deadly influenza strain.


BB, for clarity; what killed the folks in 1918 was the effects of WW1's poor diet because of submarine warfare (not poor food quality) and a superbug. But because people are fat today you think that automatically makes them healthy against disease?

Your immune system is responsible for everything from defending against minor colds and allergies to all the biggies. (Like Fred)Many people I know today (mostly young) seem to be "always sick." and most are really overweight but there are also the thin ones. And with our porous borders constant sickness seems to be getting worse.

What is ridiculous is not protecting the people already here. That's what all of the "shots before traveling" used to be about. Now it's reversed, no shots no warnings and crap shows up here unknown and sitting in our hospitals for you to suck up.

i.e. My Mom suffered from Polio at 12 years of age and the disease was eradicated before she grew old. I read not too long ago cases of Polio were starting again in here the states.

And then there is Mutation. Or is that a thing of the past?

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fred79
fred79


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Undefeatable Hero
posted November 30, 2016 12:15 PM

it's not the end of the world, but people are digging up mass graves full of people who died from the black death. the teeth of the corpses have been found to still carry the bacteria responsible for the plague that wiped out nearly half of europe. one person doing the excavating and testing, warns that the plague could come back.

article

article 2

Quote:
Her(Professor Carenza Lewis) paper ends on a sombre note. “This disease is still endemic in parts of today’s world, and could once again become a major killer, should resistance to the antibiotics now used to treat it spread amongst tomorrow’s bacteriological descendants of the fourteenth-century Yersinia pestis. We have been warned.”

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
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النور
posted November 30, 2016 05:15 PM

Leave the Earth in peace already, imagine if we found terrific tribes of troglodyte humans who fled the surface ages ago.

I thought the corpses of that plague were burnt, no?
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fred79
fred79


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Undefeatable Hero
posted November 30, 2016 06:32 PM

AlHazin said:
I thought the corpses of that plague were burnt, no?


apparently not.

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted November 30, 2016 06:40 PM

Christians...
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