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| Thread: Community creation effort |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 22, 2016 01:22 PM |
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OK I said I wouldn't participate in the debate but while I do find the topic interesting I feel like we are running in circles and I will try to put a little more perspective, hopefully to try and get most on the same page.
I think we all agree new and AWESOME mythological creatures are needed but I also agree each of the already existing factions have some DNA that should be kept as iconic. I think each faction would have two creatures representatives, and that all the rest can change. Yes Elven Archer and Unicorn for Sylvan and Minos along Blackies for Dungeon in example. This allows 5 NEW CREATURES per faction -not counting eventual alternatives- which IMO is plain enough to give the towns a breath of fresh air for each new iteration. And even the iconic ones could be the one with alternatives, for the people who got bored of them, wouldn't this put everybody on the same page? I have to admit though I for one wouldn't mind all new factions with nothing else but new creatures never seen before in any HOMM game, if the lore and art direction is inspiring and feels magical in the way the NWC games are I really wouldn't complain. BUT if we use well known factions I very much need my icons. Academy/Tower without Titans and Magi would be odd for me, speaking of which even if Academy was the one town from Ashan which I never had much problems with its lineup I still think it could have been another faction completely different from Tower. Tower would be the wizards from the high and cold mountains while Academy would be a more oriental desert-oriented town, such as the one proposed by Orzie with H3SW or Nephretes's Oasis.
The thing with iconic creatures is that with time and through succeeding iterations some have really become representative of the town, true staples and IMO keeping them doesn't necessarily mean the town would be boring while keeping them. As I try to point a little above, if around 70% of the creatures are new, it leaves a lot of place to imagination and purists wouldn't complain either since staples are there. I do not think it is much needed to define what creatures are actual staples, only need to look which were always there and yes, also fit to the lore, but not fitting as being enslaved by such as in Ashan, but only as it makes sense and not much questions asked. My reasoning really makes me think the best way should be to give alternatives to these specific creatures, so everyone's happy, and the lineup still keeps coherency. Extremes are rarely good, no change at all is no good while changing everything is perturbing. Then of course as we saw Ubi lots of times failed with implementing new creatures, as Raks points out it was non-mythological creatures that were added, and with fairly questionable taste to be honest.
All in all I believe HOMM's DNA is more about keeping a mythological legacy than necessarily the same creatures everytime, while it is also important to respect a particular town's own legacy and avoid to change it too drastically, otherwise better make all new towns. I honestly believe if a new HOMM game was to see the day and having only new factions with most creatures never seen before, it could be successful on that aspect IF made correctly, and by that I mean it would feel magical and keep the fairy-talish aspect the series should always have. Reworking existing factions might even be more hard, as you need to keep on some solid foundations despite all while proposing something fresh and inspiring at the same time.
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted March 22, 2016 01:32 PM |
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BTW, i'm not against keeping a couple of creatures from the old games at all.
I'm just a very very very very very very very very very very big hater of.
1: Ordinairy Mermaids.
2: Ordinairy Unicorns.
3: Black D&D Dragons.
4: Hippogriffs, which thank God never appeared in HOMM games YET.
There are SO much alternatives for these creatures in mythology, it makes me insane to see people still hold on to these.
Unicorns and Mermaids aren't even creatures themselves, they are GROUPS of creatures, combined names that create a group. D&D Dragons are so boring, it hurts my soul to see their fan base. A child could come up with a Blue colored dragon that shoots lightning or a red dragon taht shoots fire...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 22, 2016 01:34 PM |
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Rakshasa92 said:
I'm just a very very very very very very very very very very big hater of.
We could see that 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 22, 2016 02:29 PM |
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Rakshasa92 said:
If people don't understand how Google works these days, they shouldn't be even here.
My point is, if you need Google to understand what a creature is in the first place, then you've made a bad choice. And let's leave it at this then: Our opinions are incompatible, and that's alright, but also makes it pointless to argue over it.
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What will happen now?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 22, 2016 02:48 PM |
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alcibiades said:
My point is, if you need Google to understand what a creature is in the first place, then you've made a bad choice.
I have to disagree here, if a game can make you learn new less known creatures I can't see how it is a bad thing, especially if said creatures turns out to be awesome.
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted March 22, 2016 02:58 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Rakshasa92 said:
If people don't understand how Google works these days, they shouldn't be even here.
My point is, if you need Google to understand what a creature is in the first place, then you've made a bad choice. And let's leave it at this then: Our opinions are incompatible, and that's alright, but also makes it pointless to argue over it.
Uhm, that is the point of learning, if you never see anything you keep on living the same thing over and over again. Once you have read about a new creature on google, you know in the future what it is about.
At first nobody knew about Minotaurs and Medusa, you had to learn about them too.
I thought you would be more open and more knowledgy than this.
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted March 22, 2016 03:01 PM |
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I wholeheartedly agree with Galaad. He summed it up quite nicely. And as i also said before, this is the direction Inolin took with iconic units and introducing new ones. But, there is also the problem of consistency cross faction. For example you can't have all factions have a wolf/tiger/cat alternative like Cu Sith, Direwolfs, Barghest etc. You need to either change the looks of the unit or make hard choices between them. Nor can you have cavalries in all faction, i mean ok, the Cavalier from Haven and the Basilisk rider look different but the unit also needs to feel different as well. Or else you end up with very similar units.
Making one faction unique is easy, but as you make more and more, you realize that from a point onwards what you find looks too similar tosomething else, or the role is similar to something else and so on. This of course can be saved by keeping the faction number low while offering alternatives to the choices of the units.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 22, 2016 06:07 PM |
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Galaad said:
Reworking existing factions might even be more hard, as you need to keep on some solid foundations despite all while proposing something fresh and inspiring at the same time.
You can add fresh and inspiring things without completely eradicating the line-ups of existing factions. Apart from the obvious option of adding more factions, one can refresh existing creatures through their abilities, not to mention all the aspects of the game that has nothing to do with the creatures themselves - skill system, magic system, artifacts, adventure objects, etc.
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Minastir
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 22, 2016 06:13 PM |
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Edited by Minastir at 18:14, 22 Mar 2016.
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alcibiades said:
So I think if one wants to create a Heroes game that actual wins the fans back one needs to first concentrate on iconic creatures, then on racial creatures to create a recognizable profile, and only then new creatures to fill the gaps (feel free to disagree, Rakky).
Wait a second, that sounds familiar  This kind of approach to making a new universe, hmmm... oh, I know! 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 22, 2016 06:32 PM |
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Articun said:
Making one faction unique is easy, but as you make more and more, you realize that from a point onwards what you find looks too similar to something else, or the role is similar to something else and so on.
Very true, I will change one creature in Marelle because of that.
alcibiades said:
You can add fresh and inspiring things without completely eradicating the line-ups of existing factions. Apart from the obvious option of adding more factions, one can refresh existing creatures through their abilities, not to mention all the aspects of the game that has nothing to do with the creatures themselves - skill system, magic system, artifacts, adventure objects, etc.
Oh but I agree, all I am saying is some creatures are iconic while others can be there in one game and somewhere else in another (like we could see with druids missing from Elven town in both h3 and h4 for instance), but if you keep for every game let's say 5 out of 7 units you got to admit lineup hardly changes. As for abilities, I guess I am more conservative on this point, as I connect to how X creature plays, if Unicorn wouldn't have Blind anymore IE it would upset me.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted March 22, 2016 06:56 PM |
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Galaad said:
Articun said:
Making one faction unique is easy, but as you make more and more, you realize that from a point onwards what you find looks too similar to something else, or the role is similar to something else and so on.
Very true, I will change one creature in Marelle because of that.
I always thought that what did make Heroes lose a bit of unique and difference between factions was the (in)famous multiplayer, when everything started having to be 'balanced', aligned. In H2, things were rather nicely 'balanced' in a distinct way of how it's done these days. When H3 came, everything started to blend together somehow. For instance, angels came to human side as an uber strong unit. I miss the time when they were not there.
I believe that, if not considering a multiplayer point of view for competitive purposes, factions would be much more unique and interesting. That's what made H2 and H4 have a unique feel about them.
Of course, many will diverge in that opinion and prefer a balanced aspect.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 23, 2016 01:00 AM |
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PandaTar said:
I believe that, if not considering a multiplayer point of view for competitive purposes, factions would be much more unique and interesting. That's what made H2 and H4 have a unique feel about them.
Ehm?? don't really get why you put H3 out of the equation here? AFAIK it was not designed with competitive multiplayer in mind in the way we hear it now, in fact the game is so 'imbalanced' that there is strict rules for competitive multi, seriously altering the game, banning towns, artifacts, spells and skills... I personally have no interest in playing such mutilated version.
If you mean H3 went more 'generic' by giving upgrades to all creatures, I disagree that it "takes uniqueness of towns away", each town there IMO has its own feel both in spirit and in gameplay, with unique creatures such as Mighty Moos with Death Stare, Dread Knights with Death Blow, Genies with casting, Pit Lords with demons, Treants with entangling, Champions with jousting etc.
Aside that I fully agree with your point, being mostly a single player myself, and I believe another reason of why H7 failed is because of this 'balancing' purpose and as a result most creatures get replicate abilities and such, making it feel as you are using same units with different skins, certainly not an impression I get while playing H3. However, 'balancing' does not kill a game either if people know what they are doing, just look at H5.5, a perfect example of how the game got fixed from many of its problems without taking the fun away from it. Hota also succeeded, nerfing Necro or giving possibility for Tower to have Giants and Castle day 7 i.e., the game is still a blast to play.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted March 24, 2016 11:17 PM |
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Galaad said:
PandaTar said:
I believe that, if not considering a multiplayer point of view for competitive purposes, factions would be much more unique and interesting. That's what made H2 and H4 have a unique feel about them.
Ehm?? don't really get why you put H3 out of the equation here? AFAIK it was not designed with competitive multiplayer in mind in the way we hear it now, in fact the game is so 'imbalanced' that there is strict rules for competitive multi, seriously altering the game, banning towns, artifacts, spells and skills... I personally have no interest in playing such mutilated version.
I've meant in comparison to H2, H3 was seemingly more 'balanced'. When they leveled units to have a weak and a top score for the sake of it. If Castle didn't have Angels as top unit, but Cavaliers instead, they would probably rise Champion's stats to match that of a Dragon, forcibly, and that's the idea behind forced 'balancing' I wanted to input here.
Quote:
If you mean H3 went more 'generic' by giving upgrades to all creatures, I disagree that it "takes uniqueness of towns away", each town there IMO has its own feel both in spirit and in gameplay, with unique creatures such as Mighty Moos with Death Stare, Dread Knights with Death Blow, Genies with casting, Pit Lords with demons, Treants with entangling, Champions with jousting etc.
I've meant in a very specific manner. Adding abilities give uniqueness. But in comparison with H4, for example, I felt no need of upgrades having units with those abilities as starting point, you see. Without the upgrades, units were pretty much generic, but the upgrade felt like an excuse to fill blanks and give them meaning. I see no point why Mighty Gorgons couldn't be simply the Death Stare Gorgons from start and keep it at that. Demons even had upgrades without anything to add to them but tweaks in stats. In my view, I only captured the conception of upgrade feature as an excuse for all to have it by default, for whatever means, and not to really highlight something useful. Selective upgrades, as in H2, felt much more 'logical', appealing and engaging, specially if they were hard to acquire, compelling somehow, yet the normal version of the units still had uses and the non-up-gradable units would be truly fit for the job at the long run.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 25, 2016 04:01 PM |
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Well no matter for whatever reason it was, I do agree a healthy mix of H2/H4 creatures recruitment has more character.
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Mediczero
Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
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posted March 29, 2016 06:37 AM |
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Is it possible for me to reserve the swamp fortress faction for now? Together with lizardman and lamias? It's a thought I had, though I wont work on it for before I've done some more with ringfort.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 29, 2016 09:16 PM |
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yeah, finish what you have first.
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Mediczero
Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
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posted March 30, 2016 09:09 AM |
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Of course! I merely want to reserve it for the future...
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 16, 2016 04:19 PM |
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Time for the next step because I'm tired of waiting. Factions and quick drafts of where and how they are situated.
Factions:
Ringfort - Coastal raiders of the southern archipelago.
The Clave - secret organisation bent on hunting down demons. Exists within most major civilizations in some form.
Marelle - Strange faction showing wherever they want and hostile to most. None know their true intentions.
Gloom - Evil creatures inhabiting the darkest, wildest forests. Savage and hostile, they occasionally go out to hunt the other factions.
Gaol - the Largest Empire ruled over by the "Lord". It makes a common target for the southern raiders.
Misty Cliffs - A guardian faction of sorts watching over the world and in direct opposition to the Gaol and keep them from expanding further east.
Ziggurat - The northern savannas hold the gnoll and jackalmen civilization as they guard their homes and riches from frequent Gaol invasion and Ringfort raids.
Necropolis - Occasionally powerful Necromancers gather enough power to threaten Gaol supremacy with their corpse armies. Usually somewhat short-lived, they nonetheless make an impact wherever they crop up and not all meet an end. Currently there is a small bastion near the southern sea-side cliffs which has housed a particularly powerful one for decades.
Conflux - The various elemental planes occasionally form together in specific areas, creating towns and hubs where they can materialize freely. They stand in direct opposition to the Marelle, usually materializing shortly before they move into an area.
There, a quick initial rundown for where I imagine these factions to exist. Should there be a separate thread for the completed project, should it be here or in the faction thread? It's not quite finished yet but it's a start.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted April 16, 2016 09:25 PM |
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I thought this was dead. Do what you want since you are clearly the one putting it together.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Karmakeld
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2016 10:37 PM |
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Just bumping in here, with a comment to the upgrade issue. I personally like the H4 version, with a choice between creatures. I know there's a tendency to pick one over the other, but if they each bring a different tactical value to your strategy or vs. a certain opponent, I think it makes good sense. Even better if you can use certain creatures together. Alternatively the upgrade could offer two possible choices.
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