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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Camera Angle Strategery
Thread: Camera Angle Strategery This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted March 29, 2016 11:21 PM
Edited by kiryu133 at 17:55, 01 Apr 2016.

Poll Question:
Camera Angle Strategery

LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE

Round 1..




Heroes 7 : 3D isometric

very pretty, hidden objects, somewhat functional


-----



Age of Wonders 3 : 3D top-down

pretty, functional


-----



Heroes 5 : 3D isometric

pretty, hidden objects, somewhat functional


-----



Heroes 4 : 2D isometric

pretty, very functional


-----



Heroes 3 : 2D top-down

pretty, hidden objects, functional


-----



Heroes 2 : 2D top-down

perfect

-----


Defend your position...


GO!


Consider: Heroes games are definitively not tactical rpg's or hidden object games, they are The Epitome Strategy RPG's.  Other games fill those genres.

Personally, it is extremely important that the map be "cartographical" and highly legible; 2D art preferred, but cel-shaded 3D could work.
____________


Responses:
3D isometric (Heroes 5 - 7)
3D top-down (Age of Wonders 3)
2D isometric (Heroes 4)
2D top-down (Heroes 1 - 3)
View Results!

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted March 30, 2016 12:22 AM

..continued from http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=40444&PID=1360595#focus

vitirr said:
I remember myself fighting with the hidden game seetings in your profile file to allow the more top down camera seeting that I liked to play with.


your settings?

vitirr said:

Besides, in H5 you HAD to make extensive use of the camera because it was so easy to miss some resources or other objects hiddent behind others.

i really dont like this.  if i wanted to play a hidden object game id actually buy an ipad.
strategic prowess should not be dependent upon perusing pixels.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 30, 2016 12:33 AM

IMO the big issue isn't camera angle, it's terrain scale. In H5-7 the terrain is scaled to the hero, on H1-4 it's scaled more-or-less to the town. thus it's completely out of scale compared to the hero.

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted March 30, 2016 01:12 AM
Edited by yogi at 01:26, 30 Mar 2016.

MattII said:
IMO the big issue isn't camera angle, it's terrain scale. In H5-7 the terrain is scaled to the hero, on H1-4 it's scaled more-or-less to the town. thus it's completely out of scale compared to the hero.



wow great point!
the original games were more strategic - maps with playing fields of towns nestling amongst valleys of forest and mountain, with symbolic pieces sprinkled atop; and the newer games are more rpg: Heroes centric in scale and perspective.

i dont think this is mutually exclusive from camera angle though.  top-down feels more omniscient and centered on the world, and really only permits symbolic representations of elevation; whereas isometric feels more personal, and the third dimension is so much more prominent.

@Devs: its the S at the end of HeroeS that differentiates these games from tactical rpg's: each level is a story about mighty kingdoms and magical empires - a scale not relative to individual characters, but one which fosters their stories in the imagination as they adventure across the map.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted March 30, 2016 11:55 AM

This poll doesn't work. H5 in example is not isometric 3D but perspective.
____________
"Corribus is a teddy bear" - Blizzardboy

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted March 30, 2016 12:24 PM

Not sure how accurate the isometric part is but I voted AoW3 anyway, there's nothing that beats its beauty, simplicity and functionality. It's the up to date go-to example of everything wrong with Heroes 5-7.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Supreme Hero
By the power of Vivendi!
posted March 30, 2016 12:33 PM

I agree with Stevie. AoW3 is an example how 3D can work with this kind of games.
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted March 30, 2016 08:59 PM

Galaad said:
..3D but perspective.


wut

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 31, 2016 02:06 AM

yogi said:
i dont think this is mutually exclusive from camera angle though.  top-down feels more omniscient and centered on the world, and really only permits symbolic representations of elevation; whereas isometric feels more personal, and the third dimension is so much more prominent.
Maybe, but take a look at AOW3, and check out how small the terrain is in comparison (trees appear no taller than about knee height), to the actual non-terrain areas.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted March 31, 2016 05:24 PM
Edited by Galaad at 20:02, 02 Apr 2016.

yogi said:
wut


This poll is very confusing.

In 3D, you have basically two different modes: isometric 3D and perspective 3D. H5 (and also H7 BTW) uses perspective, while H4 uses isometric.




With isometric you have no perspective, meaning far away objects have the same size as nearby ones. True that, depending on the angle, perspective can look very similar to isometric (AoW3).

Sadly I can't vote on your poll, as I don't understand the options, starting with the first one going for isometric 3D and showing perspective 3D games as examples...
____________
"Corribus is a teddy bear" - Blizzardboy

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted March 31, 2016 08:08 PM

It's debatable at that whether isometric is 3D or not, or whether it's 2D masquerading as 3D.

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted April 01, 2016 05:34 AM
Edited by yogi at 06:02, 01 Apr 2016.

MattII said:
yogi said:
i dont think this is mutually exclusive from camera angle though.  top-down feels more omniscient and centered on the world, and really only permits symbolic representations of elevation; whereas isometric feels more personal, and the third dimension is so much more prominent.
Maybe, but take a look at AOW3, and check out how small the terrain is in comparison (trees appear no taller than about knee height), to the actual non-terrain areas.


oh i agree with you completely, and find your observation extremely illuminating!

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted April 01, 2016 05:55 AM
Edited by yogi at 07:29, 01 Apr 2016.

dont miss the forest for the trees.  we have an infinite number of possible camera angles and lens shapes, that can be rendered to look 3d, or "rastered" to look 2d.

the question is whether you prefer either of these very similar perspectives



, or more top down



; and whether you prefer a 3d art style, or a more "sprited" 2d one?


imo aow3 is a wonderful example of a more top-down perspective done in 3d right.  "i just wish that both the strategic and battle maps were more legible; perhaps even slightly less atmospheric and a bit more iconic."

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted April 01, 2016 05:18 PM

MattII said:
It's debatable at that whether isometric is 3D or not, or whether it's 2D masquerading as 3D.

No, isometric projection is 3d!! This is the difference between a perspective and isometric(orthonormal) camera frustum: https://www.google.com/search?q=isometric+frustum&client=ubuntu&hs=yDN&channel=fs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg56Hd1u3LAhWFDw8KHb3XDH4Q_AUIBygB&biw=1472&bih=777#channel=fs&tbm=isch&q=orthonormal+frustum&imgrc=OGuSCBlNjH8-UM%3A

yogi said:
we have an infinite number of possible camera angles and lens shapes

By lenses effect you mean changing the fov ? With a very small fov you get a strong zoom effect and your perspective frustum become more and more orthonormal (isometric 3d), but it will never
become orthonormal as you will reach a singularity.
____________
"Corribus is a teddy bear" - Blizzardboy

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted April 01, 2016 07:19 PM

Galaad said:

By lenses effect you mean changing the fov ? With a very small fov you get a strong zoom effect and your perspective frustum become more and more orthonormal (isometric 3d), but it will never
become orthonormal as you will reach a singularity.


mainly, you get my point.  the question at hand is about angle more than perspective.

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dredknight
dredknight


Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted April 01, 2016 08:39 PM
Edited by dredknight at 20:45, 01 Apr 2016.

I have played heroes 1,2,3 and 5 and heroes online.
Here is my vision of what happens with graphics.

2D vs 3D - I have always loved 2D graphics but I 3D adds more magic to the game now. Currently I play a lot of Heroes V and I can say it looks amazing with some graphical improvements from H6.

3D makes creatures and heroes more alive, good and evil .
Same goes for environment. Never played heroes 7 but the Adventure map looks really spectacular (opinion made based on screenshot views).

Hidden objects - When I first started to play H5 I didnt like that 3D is obscuring some objects on the map. But with the time passed I realized this is an addition to the experience. Not only strategy, but vigilance is required for success!!!

Iso-something vs Top down - If you use 3D you can actually have both.
For example in the heroes V video controls pane there is an option for top down lock of the screen so you will see everything on the map.

3D iso-something:




Top-down:



To sum it up I believe that the problem is not the type of presentation but the design of objects, creatures etc... Crap is crap no matter how it is presented.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted April 02, 2016 08:00 PM

@Yogi

I maintain your poll unfortunately doesn't work as you play with camera angles of perspective games then call it "isometric 3D". Options are not matching the pictures you see the problem... In H5 the player has liberty and control over the camera anyway...

@Dredknight

Your screens just shows different angles from H5(.5) which is -I repeat- NOT isometric 3D.
____________
"Corribus is a teddy bear" - Blizzardboy

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted April 04, 2016 11:03 PM
Edited by yogi at 00:48, 05 Apr 2016.

ok you dont get my point.  "perspective" doesnt denote angle (is very often ground-level), and nobody knows what orthographic or axonometric mean

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Graphical_projection_comparison.png

so for the sake of simplicity i used the very familiar terms top-down and isometric.
again the question at hand is about angle more than perspective.  do you prefer the view from top-down, or "tilted"?

dredknight said:
For example in the heroes V video controls pane there is an option for top down lock of the screen so you will see everything on the map.


^the only way to play; imo.
however the zoom distance is way too low

dredknight said:

To sum it up I believe that the problem is not the type of presentation but the design of objects, creatures etc... Crap is crap no matter how it is presented.


the design of objects is derivative of the angle of presentation and art style.  2d tends to be more legible imo.  cel-shaded 3d could work though..
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted April 05, 2016 01:36 PM

yogi said:
so for the sake of simplicity i used the very familiar terms top-down and isometric.


I think I get it. Interestingly enough, when I first tested the Heroes 7 game back in Paris, I instinctively thought along the lines and asked Alexis de Bacque who was near me if they could get the camera view to be more "top-down", and I used those words for the lack of a better understanding. The answer was a flat out "no", but anyway, now I think the issue is more apparent and we can say that an isometric approach would be more favorable. No, I'd go as far as to say crucial.

I was talking to my dad these days who plays WoG on a daily basis for the last several years and we touched on how Heroes (but it's really a trend for games in general) has lost the appeal of the simple and iconic. Creature and building models became way too detailed and complex, map layouts departed from being representative of entire regions to real size intersections, and many such things which we've discussed before. My reasoning for this is that the producer pushes 3D visuals to this extent in order to justify a higher price tag, eyecandy at the cost of readability. It's strange when you think that the game doesn't need creatures to have ~50.000 polygons but over half the allocated budget went to the graphical department and they still had to import massively from Heroes 6 (Academy for example was fully extracted). Not to mention that thematically the game is a disconnected jumble with everything looking different in style from map visuals to town screens. Bottom line, their zeal for their way of understanding 3D is hurting the game more than they realize. Notice I'm saying their way, because proven games like AoW3 demonstrate that 3D can work, it doesn't exaggerate with complexity or 3D map artistry, has a good random map generator capable of building beautiful maps, sells for only 30 and is critically acclaimed as a very good TBS.

Visuals and strategy elements were treated separately when in fact they're subtly connected, not at the level of art style (although that matters in its own right), but at the level of strategic viewing. Why should objects be iconic and not real size? Why simple models and not complicated 3D ones? What's the deal with isometric / top-down / perspective views and which one is preferable - couldn't we have all of them at the switch of a button? How does map making fit into the equation, would it be easy and effective for people to create their own maps? All these questions carry some heavy weight in the final design of the game because they ultimately decide what the user experience would be.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted April 11, 2016 07:00 AM
Edited by yogi at 08:01, 11 Apr 2016.

Stevie said:

Visuals and strategy elements were treated separately when in fact they're subtly connected, not at the level of art style (although that matters in its own right), but at the level of strategic viewing. Why should objects be iconic and not real size? Why simple models and not complicated 3D ones? What's the deal with isometric / top-down / perspective views and which one is preferable - couldn't we have all of them at the switch of a button? How does map making fit into the equation, would it be easy and effective for people to create their own maps? All these questions carry some heavy weight in the final design of the game because they ultimately decide what the user experience would be.


..the science of which is aptly called "User Experience": the heart and soul of game design; and priority consideration for the Producer, Lead Designer, and/or User Experience Architect (my technical job title, in another field).  good games prioritize it, bad games neglect it; its this simple.

Stevie said:
Why should objects be iconic and not real size?

because strategy game - iconic permits a more omniscient view.

"Why simple models and not complicated 3D ones?"
because imagination always > graphics card.
minecraft = timeless/massive, elder scrolls = iterative

"What's the deal with isometric / top-down / perspective views and which one is preferable - couldn't we have all of them at the switch of a button?"
yes, but this drives cost up as art assets must look good from all angles; and some perspectives are better suited for strategic thinking than others.

How does map making fit into the equation, would it be easy and effective for people to create their own maps?
its more justification for top-down; and the heart and soul of the heroes of might and magic games

@ubi: the map editor IS THE GAME.
campaigns are just sample maps.


thanks for the comments folks!
the results are quite surprising imo.  only about a third prefer 2D, but roughly two-thirds prefer top-down.
@ubi: 3D top-down please, thank you
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