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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 26, 2016 01:57 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Fog shroud,advance,teleport,summon elemental,take your pick on how you ll intercept druids. Lots of thibgs are op but not this.
Legionnaire's crazy speed(walking distance) or infinite nova is the worst! Alongside offense/defense,air magic grandmasters
Might heroes don't have all those spells at their disposal. And since most units can't move more than 6 spaces you can't body block them.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 26, 2016 02:56 AM |
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Fog shroud and advance alongside with tactics and some buffs for +1movement is very possible though. I disagree druids are op. There are things of greater nees of balance as it wasentioned here before.
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Mageus
Hired Hero
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posted June 26, 2016 03:04 AM |
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Edited by Mageus at 03:12, 26 Jun 2016.
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ChrisD1 said:
Fog shroud,advance,teleport,summon elemental,take your pick on how you ll intercept druids. Lots of thibgs are op but not this.
Legionnaire's crazy speed(walking distance) or infinite nova is the worst! Alongside offense/defense,air magic grandmasters
Air magic sure is strong 
Druids + first round init bonus (+50 with the right heroe) can devastate almost any army since they ignore the damage reduction.
Of course it is only 1 shot ... but unlike wizards or centaurs they can hide behind other troops, they are small creatures.
Mages are extremely strong but few in numbers, have low initiative and are big greatures (lots of bonuses against these + hard to hide) odds are they won't survive long enough to benefit from their range attack/nova. Not saying they don't need a nerf but druids are better in my opinion.
And Legionnairs are by far too fast : since slow unit moves at 3, normal at 4 and fast unit from 5 to 6 I'd expect them to have 4 movement.
I mean units having 7 movements exist but are extremely rare (griffins, air elementals, gold dragons, upgraded wyverns and upgraded birds), and only two of them can be bought. So 6 can be considered the almost max speed and 5 feels way to fast for mere walkers.
As for skills :
magic skills (especially fire and air) look extremely strong to me. Their buffing spells alone make wizards mightier warriors than warriors themselves (piercing arrows gives (power+20) offense at master level (archers only) and the fire one gives (1.3*power + X) offense to a 4*4 square. That is huge.
Offense (war machines) is really bad and that is sad since they did so many different war machines.
Air GM has a good design but is indeed very strong (probably the most powerful skill for now after necromancy).
How powerful skills feel for me after a few hundred hours of play:
great skills, the first I'll choose if given the chance:
Necromancy, air magic, fire magic
good skills, I don't focus as hard on them or they don't give me as much an edge:
academy faction skill, attack, leadership, luck, shroud, earth magic, Defense
Okeish skills : I'll take them in specific builds or later on :
light magic, elven luck, logistic, human faction skill, water magic, prime magic, death magic, rage
Skills I hardly ever play with :
offense, parangon, diplomaty (neutral creatures are too damn expensive), warcries (needs to have a might hero for this one )
LizardWarrior said:
Mageus said:
GM attack and defense need to change else they will break the balance with the following extension (GM defense just look to strong with mage heroes).
Those are definitely going to be changed, but what effect should they have?
As for Attack GM there are many fun things you can replace it with one of the following:
_First ennemy stack die : something big like cleave : free new turn for the stack.
_each time an ennemy stack die: something less big : gain a stat or scare ennemies even further (additionnal -10 to their moral)
_ permanent bonus : +X movement and/or init or double the heroe main basic attack.
Same idea for GM defense except it would trigger in defense (ally stack dies) or give a defensive bonus (-X movement to ennemy, some magic damage resistance, etc).
And finally I don't get why you dislike flanking so much. If you trick it will there be an option to disable the modification? I know this was not in previous heroes but this is one of the best feature they added to me or will be once you choose which direction you face.
I'll explain myself :
Imagine a battle where pikesmen and cavalry are against each other.
In the first scenario the horses charges head on th pikesmen. I'd expect the cavalry to do little damage and have heavy losses.
In the second scenario they are flanking the pikesmen who didn't react fast enough and only have part of them ready for it. I'd expect a lot more damage frome the cavalry and a lot less casualties.
Last scenario they are charging from behind. The pikesmen are still advancing and by the time they realize the huge sound is from ennemies behind them only a line or two could manage to plant their pikes. I'd expect the pikesmen to be devastated (unless way more numerous) and the cavalry to have a huge success.
Now remember the battle with several hobbits and humans against a huge beast; in Lord of the ring the fight where the hobbit had that mythril armor. Do you really think they'd have a chance if they were all facing the beast? That it was just a slight tactical advantage to have it flanked? They managed to do critical damage BECAUSE they flanked it, it was a huge factor.
Also quite similar : all these battles where the heroes can wistand the fights as long as they hold the lines but as soon as they are circled they abandon for they know they are doomed.
All that to say from what I understand you'd wish to make flanking an edge to be considered, a factor amongst many. Yet in movies, games in general and also in real life if you are attacked from behind you are going to suffer, a lot. Exposing your back should be a risky behavior. Making the flank up to 10_15% wouldn't even negate the edge of giving the first hit and lessen the stress on a perfect positionning.
So ... if you do plan to reduce it the way you mentionned will there be an option to disable this change?
PS : The part that annoys most people is that two units already engaged in melee will dance around each other and we can hardly imagine that as backstabbing. Just add a marker on each unit that retaliate mentionning who they retaliated against. This marker disappeared at the end of its next turn or is updated at the next retaliation. A unit can't be flanked by the creature it has a marker of.
This removes the silly dance and let the core of the feature remain (a feature that will be perfect that will be great with that and completed by the possibility to choose which way you are facing.)
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 26, 2016 03:29 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Fog shroud and advance alongside with tactics and some buffs for +1movement is very possible though. I disagree druids are op. There are things of greater nees of balance as it wasentioned here before.
See but now it's like you HAVE to have all these skills or that one spell just to avoid this move. I'm not saying Druids are op, just that one ability. "once per round" abilities are really hard to implement without them affecting the battles too much. Offensive ones just don't belong imo. The Archangel's resurrection works better because it's defensive and its much more difficult to get a high number of angels so it doesn't get out of hand, where as a normal elite you can easily have throngs of. And in this game especially the neutral stacks grow SO large that something will die if a stack of Druids shoot their leaf daggers at you.
If it didn't ignore defense it would still be powerful. It's a piercing shot that doesn't hurt your allies 
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 26, 2016 09:21 AM |
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I get it but still all those abilities i mentioned,is not smth you have to have for thr druids but smth you ll likely have and can use it against druids.
Guess it could hardly ignore defense.
Anyways as our friend above said,gm air is monstrous,those hateful pikemen have way too much movement,and warfare ability could be tweaked a little. Support units that heal should also resurrect. For example the dream walker heals 300 hp at level 5,and it's a shame it cannot resurrect.
Also a zillion skeletons with putrid bones and teleportation is extremely op. Add the slightest buff and you don't need the rest of the army... Even if the cap was smaller(50) eventually you woud get op. Also the upg skeletons should be weaker or i dunno skeletons would always have 1 might and 1 def refardless hero stats.
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 26, 2016 09:36 AM |
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Yeah maybe GM air should only effect ranged units? Similar to how GM fire only effects melee.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted June 26, 2016 10:02 AM |
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Mageus said:
As for Attack GM there are many fun things you can replace it with one of the following:
_First ennemy stack die : something big like cleave : free new turn for the stack.
_each time an ennemy stack die: something less big : gain a stat or scare ennemies even further (additionnal -10 to their moral)
_ permanent bonus : +X movement and/or init or double the heroe main basic attack.
Same idea for GM defense except it would trigger in defense (ally stack dies) or give a defensive bonus (-X movement to ennemy, some magic damage resistance, etc).
Thanks for the suggestions, those should be realizable. Perhaps something called "Bloodthirst" or "Bloodlust" which would increase a creature stat by X% if they kill a creature stack.
Mageus said:
So ... if you do plan to reduce it the way you mentionned will there be an option to disable this change?
Probably gonna put an option in the installer so people will choose if they want flanking remain or not.
Mageus said:
PS : The part that annoys most people is that two units already engaged in melee will dance around each other and we can hardly imagine that as backstabbing. Just add a marker on each unit that retaliate mentionning who they retaliated against. This marker disappeared at the end of its next turn or is updated at the next retaliation. A unit can't be flanked by the creature it has a marker of.
This removes the silly dance and let the core of the feature remain (a feature that will be perfect that will be great with that and completed by the possibility to choose which way you are facing.)
What would be doable is that each creature could be flanked only once per turn, after they retaliate they could gain a temporary buff called "Alertness" which will make them immune to flanking until the next turn. But that means I have to add that ability to every creature and it's not something I'm planning for the next version. I will however check if I can make units that used defend immune to flanking for the duration of their turn.
Meanwhile, I'm working on a new wraith:
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 26, 2016 01:39 PM |
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Mageus said:
And finally I don't get why you dislike flanking so much. If you trick it will there be an option to disable the modification? I know this was not in previous heroes but this is one of the best feature they added to me or will be once you choose which direction you face.
I'll explain myself :
Imagine a battle where pikesmen and cavalry are against each other.
In the first scenario the horses charges head on th pikesmen. I'd expect the cavalry to do little damage and have heavy losses.
In the second scenario they are flanking the pikesmen who didn't react fast enough and only have part of them ready for it. I'd expect a lot more damage frome the cavalry and a lot less casualties.
Last scenario they are charging from behind. The pikesmen are still advancing and by the time they realize the huge sound is from ennemies behind them only a line or two could manage to plant their pikes. I'd expect the pikesmen to be devastated (unless way more numerous) and the cavalry to have a huge success.
The point is that the explanations you give don't exist ingame in the current flanking implementation. What we're seeing now is something different:
- Pikemen engage Cavaliers in battle (regardless of who opened the attack), i.e. in melee;
- The Cavaliers walk around the Pikemen and engage from behind to gain full flanking damage;
It's totally absurd that the Pikemen formation wouldn't respond to the actions of the Cavaliers before they're charged in the back. In order to do this, realistically, the Cavaliers would need to disengage from the Pikemen (which means they take attacks of opportunity from them), then regroup and circle around the Pikemen, in order to charge them once again. The Pikemen don't need to move, they only need to reposition their spears to face the new direction the Cavaliers are coming from.
If the Pikemen are already pinned down in position due to another enemy unit, the Cavalier charge in an exposed flank is indeed deadly for the Pikemen - heck, this was a common tactic in ancient battles, which could send whole regiments (or indeed, even the entire enemy army) running.
Now suppose one army has 100 Pikemen, while the enemy army has 50 Cavaliers and 2 Sentinels. Does it make sense that the Pikemen would fully focus on the Sentinels if those attack them first, before the Cavaliers charge in with devastating effects from behind? In reallife, of course not; most of the Pikemen regiment would focus on the Cavaliers and where they're moving, while maybe half a dozen would focus on the Sentinels. Yet, ingame a player can sacrifice those 2 Sentinels to cause the Pikemen to expose their backside to the Cavaliers.
That's why the Flanking system in this game sucks. The defending player has almost no control over how or what when the enemy attacks start happening.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 26, 2016 01:59 PM |
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It is just absurd that you can't reposition where unit is facing if you just move and don't attack. Flanking's implementation in h7 does not work, it is probably the better thing to do to remove it for now.
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Mageus
Hired Hero
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posted June 26, 2016 02:24 PM |
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Edited by Mageus at 14:48, 26 Jun 2016.
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Maurice said:
The point is that the explanations you give don't exist ingame in the current flanking implementation. What we're seeing now is something different:
- Pikemen engage Cavaliers in battle (regardless of who opened the attack), i.e. in melee;
- The Cavaliers walk around the Pikemen and engage from behind to gain full flanking damage;
It's totally absurd that the Pikemen formation wouldn't respond to the actions of the Cavaliers before they're charged in the back. In order to do this, realistically, the Cavaliers would need to disengage from the Pikemen (which means they take attacks of opportunity from them), then regroup and circle around the Pikemen, in order to charge them once again. The Pikemen don't need to move, they only need to reposition their spears to face the new direction the Cavaliers are coming from.
If the Pikemen are already pinned down in position due to another enemy unit, the Cavalier charge in an exposed flank is indeed deadly for the Pikemen - heck, this was a common tactic in ancient battles, which could send whole regiments (or indeed, even the entire enemy army) running.
I totally agree with that part : the dancing around phase is something that should be fought against.
As for the second part it is part of the whole heroes mechanic : is it realistic that ten dragons can't retaliate once they have been attacked by a single peasant? At that point I'm ok with the repositionning that occurs and the vulnerability it gets : they already don't retaliate and the attacker not only sacrificed one stack he also sacrificed moral (helpful addition to counter that kind of tactics).
Galaad said:
It is just absurd that you can't reposition where unit is facing if you just move and don't attack. Flanking's implementation in h7 does not work, it is probably the better thing to do to remove it for now.
I'd rather have it not functionning properly than not at all. As long as there is an option to disable the change it is ok though.
LizardWarrior said:
What would be doable is that each creature could be flanked only once per turn, after they retaliate they could gain a temporary buff called "Alertness" which will make them immune to flanking until the next turn. But that means I have to add that ability to every creature and it's not something I'm planning for the next version. I will however check if I can make units that used defend immune to flanking for the duration of their turn.
I am not convinced by your first proposition (if someone is circled he can be flanked both ways and backstabbed as well).
Your second point however would be great : a creature in defensive stance should be immuned to flank, at least for the first attack.
And finally most of the skins are great and I do like the idea to have a mod which makes the castle more H3 like (dungeon, etc). One think I wondered was the speed you gave those creatures : the mummy already has 5, the dragons has 12.
I ask this because in H3 you could offen attack with your melee creature right in the first round (especially if you took tactics).
So the creeping against archers was easier.
On the other hand even the "big" creatuers were smaller and you could always protect your own archers (against anything but dragons)
In H7 however not only creeping against archers is harder, it is also harder to protect your own archers : more of these are big (titans, mages, etc) and a 2x2 creatures require the good skill (leadership + tactics) and 4 stacks at least to cover them. In H3 it would cost one less stack and tactics was almost a must have (for what I remember) while not every one can get or want leadership.
So it is quite a big design choice to have units with more than 7 speed. Just wanted to have your thoughts on it.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted June 26, 2016 03:05 PM |
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Mageus said:
And finally most of the skins are great and I do like the idea to have a mod which makes the castle more H3 like (dungeon, etc). One think I wondered was the speed you gave those creatures : the mummy already has 5, the dragons has 12.
I ask this because in H3 you could offen attack with your melee creature right in the first round (especially if you took tactics).
So the creeping against archers was easier.
On the other hand even the "big" creatuers were smaller and you could always protect your own archers (against anything but dragons)
In H7 however not only creeping against archers is harder, it is also harder to protect your own archers : more of these are big (titans, mages, etc) and a 2x2 creatures require the good skill (leadership + tactics) and 4 stacks at least to cover them. In H3 it would cost one less stack and tactics was almost a must have (for what I remember) while not every one can get or want leadership.
So it is quite a big design choice to have units with more than 7 speed. Just wanted to have your thoughts on it.
I was quite shocked to see that creatures in h7 are so sluggish, especially flyers whose main advantage was exactly that, they could reach the enemy lines quickly. In h7, I feel like both speed and initiative were random, why would a spider or a wolf act before a dragon? Even more, they could move further, even though they were no fliers. Or why would justicars act before cavalry? It makes no sense to me. If it was more realistic, then speed would mostly be like it was in heroes 3, while initiative would be more like a real army, first act shooters/fliers, then cavalry, then infantry, in H7 is just a random soup which makes no sense whatsoever, plus that in previous heroes it was more intuitive which would move and how. Also most battle are too slow IMO, they lack dynamism. So that's why I decided to go with a more H3-like approach, so there is room for such things as glass cannons which should attack quick and get the opportunity to do so before they are butchered by shooters.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted June 26, 2016 03:46 PM |
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Mageus said:
The flank mechanism would be much better if you could choose the orientation of your unit whent the unit does not use all its movement. I don't know if that is possible.
What would be really nice (but probably not possible to do) is that units could focus on an ennemy at the end of their turn (the nearest by default) and if they still have movement can reajust their position to face it (all remaining movement is lost with the first retaliation). This way the whole flanking system would be much more realistic.
Actually I realise I heard that there are going to be some big "official" changes in flanking, probably more or less something you suggest.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Mageus
Hired Hero
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posted June 26, 2016 05:48 PM |
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Edited by Mageus at 17:51, 26 Jun 2016.
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LizardWarrior said:
I was quite shocked to see that creatures in h7 are so sluggish, especially flyers whose main advantage was exactly that, they could reach the enemy lines quickly. In h7, I feel like both speed and initiative were random, why would a spider or a wolf act before a dragon? Even more, they could move further, even though they were no fliers. Or why would justicars act before cavalry? It makes no sense to me. If it was more realistic, then speed would mostly be like it was in heroes 3, while initiative would be more like a real army, first act shooters/fliers, then cavalry, then infantry, in H7 is just a random soup which makes no sense whatsoever, plus that in previous heroes it was more intuitive which would move and how. Also most battle are too slow IMO, they lack dynamism. So that's why I decided to go with a more H3-like approach, so there is room for such things as glass cannons which should attack quick and get the opportunity to do so before they are butchered by shooters.
Now I think the logic they tried to implement was speed 3=slow (slow infantry, less mobile creatures), 4 = normal (classic infantry, slow monster), 5= fast (fast infantry, classic monsters, slow flyers), 6=very fast (most flyers and mounted units). 7 hardly ever happens for it already kinda break the balance (allow attack on first turn)
.
Now the thing is in h3 you had a great, almost mandatory, skill called tactic. Without it (aka against creeps) your units were 11 tiles away from the ennemies so ennemies (except very fast creature) would not reach you on the first turn and maybe not even in the second turn should you play with archers.
With it however you could reduce the distance to something like 6 tiles and then most of your fighters could attack ennemies the first turn. This made creeping much easier for both archers and fighters (and going full melee was a viable choice, a nice one until you want to take a castle).
In H7 the tactic equivalent only changes one tide. One tide actually is big (as combined with another +1 movement it can allow your warriors to reach 2*2 archers the first round, in several maps). Still it does not quite allow the same diversity and overall in H7 archers are both more effective as neutral creep (hard to prevent them from shooting) and harder to defend them when on your team.
If you add units with that much speed (and increase speed of existing units) you could as well change the size of battlefields and how many tiles ahead tactic can place you (and maybe making it a higher tier skill) to really have what H3 did.
Antalyan said:
Actually I realise I heard that there are going to be some big "official" changes in flanking, probably more or less something you suggest.
Yeah I did not hear about that but someone else already mentionned it in this post. That + the skillwheel changes will be more than welcome, if it is not too buggy
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 26, 2016 06:36 PM |
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Honestly there is maybe one creature that moves 3 spaces, and it's probably a ranged unit. There's a handful of creatures that move 4, mostly Unupgraded units, a few ranged ones, and earth elementals! Literally like 90%+ units in this game move either 5 or 6 spaces as their base movement. I've counted them up posed it somewhere around here. You've got a small handful that will move 7 and the simurgh can move 8!!
I thought it was simpler than this...if anyone plays fire emblem I usually use their weapon triangle as an example. Axes -> lances -> swords -> Axes
Similarly it's typically fliers -> shooters -> walkers -> fliers
A flying unit should have the advantage and be able to move quickly across the battlefield and block a ranged unit from shooting. Fliers are beat by the typical walker who is slower, more beefy, takes longer to cross the battlefield and can get shot at more times which gives ranged units an advantage over them. It was a lot more black and white in h1&2. H3 gave us a variety of creatures, some that would go against these usual which is good for unit diversity.
In h7 they....kicked out a lot of flying units, added a lot of ranged units, basically removed the flying units ability to block ranged units on the first turn, and the result is ugly. They gave us creatures like the lamasu who move like a swordsman, yet we don't have anything like the dragon fly or thunderbirds. Their BS moves like might pounce don't make up for it lol
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Mageus
Hired Hero
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posted June 26, 2016 07:50 PM |
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The_green_drag said:
Honestly there is maybe one creature that moves 3 spaces, and it's probably a ranged unit. There's a handful of creatures that move 4, mostly Unupgraded units, a few ranged ones, and earth elementals! Literally like 90%+ units in this game move either 5 or 6 spaces as their base movement. I've counted them up posed it somewhere around here. You've got a small handful that will move 7 and the simurgh can move 8!!
I thought it was simpler than this...if anyone plays fire emblem I usually use their weapon triangle as an example. Axes -> lances -> swords -> Axes
I checked this and amongst faction creatures (N means the upgraded creature has one more speed)
move 3 : marksmen, mages, lichs, treants ;4(true that ain't many creatures)
move 4 : guardians (N), chaplains, minautors (N), Medusa(N), brute(N),gnoll, centaur(N), cyclop(N), hunter, druid, green dragon(N), cabir, gargoyle, golems(N), rakshasa(N), titan, skelettons; 17 (9 N)
move 5 : assassins, dire wolf (N), sentinel, sword master, strider(N), troglodytes, stalkers, shadow dragon(N), hydra, basilik(N), Behemoth(N), dryad, Pixie(N), blade master, djin(N), ghosts(N), spiders, lamasu, vampires(N), bone dragons ; 20 (9N)
move 6 : cavaliers(N), angel(N), harpies, wyvern(N),deer, grim reaper; 6 (3N)
move 7 : Arcane bird(N) ; 1 (1N) (I did not believe it but you were right indeed, upgraded birds have 8 speed oO')
So the repartition unupgraded/upgraded/total is
speed 3: 4/ 4/ 8
speed 4: 17/ 8/25
speed 5: 20/20/40
speed 6: 6/12/18
speed 7: 1/ 3/ 4
speed 8: 0/ 1/ 1
mean speed : 4.65/5.10/4.875
The first row being what you start with, the second raw the units you are likely to face in another heroe and have late game and the last raw represents the creeping phase (where you are as likely to meet upgraded and unupgraded creatures).
5 speed seems like the norm, the choice when they are really unsispired as to what speed to give : speed 3 = very slow. speed 4 = normal slow (infantry, archers, every thing that has no reason to go fast), speed 5 normal fast (normal monsters and anything that do not have a reason to be extra fast), speed 6 fast (mostly units upgraded for that speed bonus). Speed 7 very fast (and rare). Speed 8 = angry chicken super fast level.
And yes, nothing that can reach the archer first round while creeping is sad but as is the fact we can't protect those archers. Imagine you are about to fight a very fast unit, would you dare play your 2x2 archers even though you know you can't cover them and prevent the other one to go melee turn 1?
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted June 26, 2016 09:05 PM |
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The more I find out about h7, the more I despise it. Here's the system I'm planning to do with some examples:
Very Slow 4: Zombies
Slow 5: Skeletons, Mummies, Beholder
Average 6: Lich, Paladin, Minotaur, Spider
Swift 7: Archlich, Haunted Armor
Very Swift 8: Cursed Armor, Wight, Vampire
Quick 9:Wraith, Vampire Lord
Very Quick 10: Red Dragon
Fast 11: Black Dragon
Very Fast 12: Phoenix
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 27, 2016 03:31 AM |
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Perfect
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted June 27, 2016 08:36 AM |
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start from 3 speed to 12.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 27, 2016 08:55 AM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Very Fast 12: Phoenix
Does H7 have slow as in H3? If yes, speed 12 will be halved with slow and 6 for fastest unit is not enough, no? In H3 the slowed phoenix had however 10-12 speed, enough to reach the two hexes creatures on the other side. Just asking.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted June 27, 2016 09:25 AM |
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Edited by natalka at 09:31, 27 Jun 2016.
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H7 doesnt have slow that halves just a dumb ass spell that reduces by 1.
Lizard, I would seriously consider making 12 x 15 squares the default battlefield. Start from there and design several creature speeds 3-4 very slow, 4-5 slow, 6-7 average, 8-9 and so on. Consider having speeds more than 15.
All the crap in this game is connected so maybe u will have to change slow spell.
EDIT: dont change GM air. It is not that OP vs human opponents. If opp positions smartly it may NEVER trigger. Only positive side is that it prevents formation.
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