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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: GREED - Machines versus Human-Beings
Thread: GREED - Machines versus Human-Beings This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT»
markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted May 26, 2016 01:59 PM
Edited by markkur at 14:05, 26 May 2016.

GREED - Machines versus Human-Beings

Many times I have railed against "out of control Technology" on this site. I am an absolute Luddite when it comes to the ever-present insanity of Machines killing the livelihoods of Humans around the world.

I find it strange so many folks in this world believe in "Man-only", speak endlessly on Biology and Evolution and yet cannot seem to come to grips with what GREED is doing to humanity right under their damnit feet.

Worldwide there is a huge shortage of work of all kinds and yet Nations continue to allow Super-Machine-Companies to destroy all types of work/jobs/bread-winning and yet in the same breath - talk about their low-life populations wanting to live on welfare and being lazy etc. etc. on and on. The most potent assaults on the average person's outlook and well-being today is "Misdirection & Propaganda".

Fact: I worked in the Manufacturing sector for 35 years of my life...working my way up from grunt-jobs. Then, we called it "paying your dues" and nearly all workers expected and respected it. Well guess what folks? Last year Robots were introduced into Companies as "Security-Guards" and God knows what else had been added to an already enormous list.

Now China...you know the land where so many American jobs went behind the mantra of "improving the lot of the Chinese people", the China that has like the most freaking breathing Human bodies on the planet...now plans this shee-it.

Quote:
Apple and Samsung supplier Foxconn has reportedly replaced 60,000 factory workers with robots.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36376966


Folks there is a War on people. Trash Utopian dreams where you will sit on your bum, be a bum and play video games in some sort of paradise where you don't ever have to lift a finger and have margaritas and nachos handed to you at your pleasure.

<imo> Human life has been completely devalued. Holy and sacred Marriage is crap, White men are always the problem, "Tradition" horrible, Faith BS, unborn babies = worth zero, Motherhood attacked, Taxpayers mere mute Zombies that seldom even grumble and on and on the beat goes on with our Governments not giving a flying-flip about the welfare of their own  people, that btw, pay there damned checks and foster they luxurious life!
-------------------------------------------------------------

Here's something from China that "should" ( we can only hope) halt even the most devoted Machine-worshipper in his or her tracks. The article goes on to say that even the glorious carreer path of burger-flipper is soon to be targeted. Big Mac goes Big Muck for the almighty Buck.

The most striking line of Bullfeces in the article is "repetitive jobs in manufacturing". WTH! That has been nearly all jobs for human beings since the glorious shift at the beginning of the Industrial-Age when making the Brown-Bess musket was modernized into one of the first production lines. (Sorry Henry Ford, you were not the first) So during this time, Men left the farm-life behind, their families and the rural life, to live in cities and most often to stand in one place day after day doing the same things. They earned more money and most were quite happy and after-all they had a chance at moving-up and making more money later. It was all about...earning a living.

My first job was digging mud out of a drain pit at a carwash (I was 12), then washing dishes at a café(15), then doing 4 functions on a plastic-injection machine that made plastic bowls & glasses (17)and after a 1&1/2 year stint working for a furniture moving company (19)I started at a grunt-job in a Car/Truck/Boat Battery Manufacturing Plant in 1974 doing a very demanding but good paying job - hand assembling Battery-cells. Over 22 years I eventually learned nearly every job in the place and moved into Supervision and Quality-Engineering positions till the plant was closed.

It was a fine life till machines started replacing many jobs (this was about the time when General Motors introduced Robotic-Welders into its production line. From there, the trickle became a flood and of course then...our jobs started going over seas...hmm...like CHINA. Oh yes we heard "its good to have competition" "free-market" and all that tripe but now that nation (just like Japan and many others) have to have Robots because what? They have too many freakin' people?

This stuff makes my blood boil. But of course that's all easily explained, I am an old fashioned white American male and my values and beliefs about the sacred importance of Human-life in all ways is archaic and undesirable.
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted May 26, 2016 02:35 PM

I believe robots will eventually replace humans when it comes to work, it's only a matter of time and resources.
But greed is only one factor to take into the calculations and the ironic thing is that despite our awareness of greed, we fail to take advantage of it.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 26, 2016 06:16 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 18:21, 26 May 2016.

Robots replacing humans is obviously bad for the people whose jobs are getting replaced, but it's great for everybody else, who get the benefit of (presumably) more efficient production. You could be negative about the desire for cheaper goods and call it "greed", but I don't see why it's any worse than wanting to not be replaced. Indeed, it's the same impulse. Would we have been better off if the government had prevented the mechanization of agriculture? Obviously not.

If you want to help the people displaced by robots, reduce barriers to them getting new jobs, such as occupation licensing, and barriers keeping them from moving to where the jobs are, such as housing prices being kept artificially high by restrictions on development. It would even be better to redistribute wealth through something like a basic income - it's not a solution I endorse, but it's still much better than forgoing the benefits of increased productivity.

But ultimately, no one owes anyone a livelihood. If you and I can cooperate to better fulfill our own desires, great. If one of us finds a better alternative, the other can complain but isn't entitled to continue the association.
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Eccentric Opinion

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted May 26, 2016 06:34 PM
Edited by Minion at 18:34, 26 May 2016.

mvassilev said:
It would even be better to redistribute wealth through something like a basic income - it's not a solution I endorse, but it's still much better than forgoing the benefits of increased productivity.

We are just pondering basic income in Finland and we are trying out a pilot program of it 2017-2018. Nice you are also for it
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted May 26, 2016 07:16 PM

Increased automation in areas where the nature of the job exposes the workers to serious health hazards should only be welcomed. Everywhere else... it depends. With a properly evolved education system that takes into account the needs of the economy and prepares adequately trained cadres, the increased use of robots in some sector should not be a problem because, theoretically, the would-be employees will be trained for something which is not done by robots - partially or entirely. In the vast majority of the countries however, it's nowhere near as advanced which MIGHT create problems in long term.

Other than that, you're oversimplifying the issue, markkur. At their current stage of development, robots can replace only very low-end labour and still can't operate autonomously. They are expensive to purchase and maintain so it's not like even the wealthy corporations will be mass-replacing employees with machines in the near future. Mid-tier and small business can't afford and won't be able to afford anything but human labour for many more years. Any type of job that involves something more than mechanical motion will remain human-exclusive for quite some time as a working AI is well beyond the horizon and even if it appears in the next few decades, it will take much longer before people start trusting it (the "tradition" stuff is still very strong no matter what you think). And frankly I see no problem with disposing of the monotonous, brain-draining and sometimes life-threatening jobs where the current generous employers treat the workers like ants. For everything else, the education systems should find a way to adapt, that's the REAL issue.

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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted May 26, 2016 07:56 PM

Quote:
And frankly I see no problem with disposing of the monotonous, brain-draining and sometimes life-threatening jobs where the current generous employers treat the workers like ants. For everything else, the education systems should find a way to adapt, that's the REAL issue.


Hear hear.

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted May 26, 2016 09:34 PM
Edited by Corribus at 21:56, 26 May 2016.

mvassilev said:
Robots replacing humans is obviously bad for the people whose jobs are getting replaced, but it's great for everybody else, who get the benefit of (presumably) more efficient production.

Besides - Technology has been replacing jobs for eons. Using the spurious logic of the opening post, we should go back to pre-industrial days. After all, the cotton gin, steam engine, plow, printing press, and on and on doomed generations of people to wander about with no jobs. Right? Please. Technology replaces jobs that are obsolete. Nobody now would seriously suggest we should start copying books by hand, just so there are more book-copying jobs. Likewise, there's no reason to eschew technology just because it keeps jobs around.

There will always be plenty of ways for people to earn a livelihood, no matter the technological environment.

____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted May 26, 2016 09:48 PM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 21:51, 26 May 2016.

Not to mention, the more sophisticated machinery becomes the more technical the next generation, I mean look at the computer experts of the current generation, while 25-30 years ago something like this would be inconceivable.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted May 26, 2016 09:58 PM

There is a slight problem though, the older generations can't keep up with the advancement of technology. Which means that companies will almost exclusively hire younger people, which makes the older people pissed.

It is troublesome for the companies too as they can't find workforce that is up to the tasks they have. Which paradoxically means that there can be a shortage of employees AND unemployment at the same time. Which really rubs people the wrong way, especially when companies hire immigrants to do you "your" job....
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted May 26, 2016 10:13 PM

Corribus said:
Using the spurious logic of the opening post, we should go back to pre-industrial days. After all, the cotton gin, steam engine, plow, printing press, and on and on doomed generations of people to wander about with no jobs. Right?

Well, he already says he is a Luddite.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted May 26, 2016 10:43 PM

good video on this subject

Machines replacing human workers is going to happen and it's happening faster and faster. That's not the question nor the problem. What we should focus on is what to do so these people losing their jobs won't be thrown to the way-side, unable to take part in society in any meaningful way. We need a system that allow these people to live comfortably and with dignity.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted May 26, 2016 11:02 PM

It is a good video.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted May 26, 2016 11:05 PM

artu said:

Well, he already says he is a Luddite.


But that's a group, which was present in the 19th century. He is no time traveller, right?

Anyway, machines will replace people, and that's nothing we can change. Question remains if the quality of the work of such machines will remain same, if not improved. Who knows?

Maybe it is better these changes happen after the unemployment rate goes down, to make it less drastic. I can only say that there are other jobs where people are better suited to work than machines would.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 26, 2016 11:15 PM

In general some say is a good thing. But when you face it individually, it sucks.

Try to call in a hurry any bureaucratic organism, be it your phone company, or internet one, or the health care, or taxes, or anything of that sort, you will lose hours, days, weeks talking to robots which can only deal "push this or other key". 10 years ago you could fix anything by only talking to the right person, now there are 10 idiotic machines between you and him.

Then the most funny comes when you receive your phone bill and see how much costed you those calls.
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Era II mods and utilities

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted May 26, 2016 11:27 PM

Bureaucracy has nothing to do with technological advancements. You are messing things up here. As usual.
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 26, 2016 11:37 PM

What about you read my post again and again until your working brain lone cell comprehends that I am talking about machines replacing humans. Phone robots, thats it.
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Era II mods and utilities

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted May 27, 2016 12:36 AM

Folks most of you a very naïve.
Technology always offers far fewer jobs than it replaces...always; do your research and preferably not done by Tech-companies. And that BS about not doing boring stuff? Wth? So everyone today thinks they have a right to some cutting-edge R&D job? Right...get real- there are way too many people on this planet and competition is not national any longer it's global.

I knew this would be the response but the time is coming that such wishful thinking will be made null and void. I will not be here much longer so it will not affect me but that does not keep me from caring about what I see, hear and read ahead for the younger generations.

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Celfious
Celfious


Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
posted May 27, 2016 05:52 AM
Edited by Celfious at 05:52, 27 May 2016.

It could go well but not if the primary benifit only works in favor of  multi million salary CEOs getting 500% raises.

On top of this our screw you government in the US protects them.

We need fighters. We need warriors. We need addresses to "mail friendly request letters" to.
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What are you up to

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted May 27, 2016 07:16 AM

kiryu133 said:
good video on this subject
Pretty poor video on the subject:

1. There are vast areas containing no less than 2/3 of the world's population where the level of economic and social development is too low to afford automation on a large scale in the near future. The gap between these countries and the "first world" is getting bigger rather than smaller and this has been a steady trend for quite some time. As usual, people from developed countries can't get out of their small thinking boxes;

2. Automation in IT is fairly crude and expensive at the moment. An uneducated end user might think that everything works flawlessly and super-smart programs drive the Internetz but in fact there is a huge effort in the background to fix, mitigate and reduce the damage of the large amount of errors those wonder programmers who write wonder programs do all the time. Things are improving here but get worse there all the while there is a huge marketing fuzz in the front how better and smarter everything gets which isn't always the whole truth or even part of it. This particular area is likely to need a large amount of human supervision for a long time and the job demands will probably increase rather than decrease (as will the required qualification though);

3. People relying exclusively on low-end labour are always threatened by the prospect of remaining unemployed or intermittently employed, machines have little to do with this. Raw muscle strength is being replaced by work animals and machineries since the ancient times, nothing has changed all that much lately. It's a problem of the educational system to ensure that there is a relatively small amount of people in the economy who can't do anything but work as mules.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted May 27, 2016 09:36 AM

Technology improves fast and that is the big issue here.
Once you have a fully developed robot that is human like, cheap to make and to maintain, then chaos is something to expect. Because the society does not evolve at the same speed.
Drawing parallels with technology introduced in previous times is not only naive, but it also shows the very poor understanding of the question in general. It's not actually the jobs that is the big question here, but rather what people are supposed to do when more than 95% of all jobs are done by robots. It creates a society that is out of this mind (at least for me).
A robot introduced on the assembly line is quite crude and could certainly not do much more than being on the assembly line.
Now compare that to a robot that calculates faster than a human, can perform physical work at much greater stress and strength, can multitask beyond what we today consider multitasking and on top of all this does not scream for vacations or a salary.
So the big question in my world is this: What are people supposed to do?

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