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| Thread: GREED - Machines versus Human-Beings |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 28, 2016 03:26 AM |
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Corribus said:
There will always be plenty of ways for people to earn a livelihood, no matter the technological environment.
i disagree. jobs for everyday joes is always going down; due to lack of knowledge/training/experience/degrees in technology-related fields(which will obviously become more and more prevalent in the future), and due to the ever-growing population(more people = flooded job market). new jobs don't just drop out of the sky; they have to be created. unlike much of the technology, which the world is currently being flooded with; not to mention, how it's forever advancing.
i'd say, if you want a job that'll last, try electronics repair, network security, and the like. those are jobs that'll be much more prevalent than they are now(even moreso than they are now).
but not just everyone can learn new things. older people are becoming obsolete, just as much as older technology. imo, they go hand-in-hand. society is advancing far too quickly for the older generation to keep up.
not that any of this means anything anyway. we won't last too much longer, in the current state of things; and how fast everything is changing. there are so many things that can end us these days, and the majority seems to really be willfully oblivious to it.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted May 28, 2016 08:43 AM |
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artu said:
At first, there can be some short-termed nationalism as a reaction, actually there already is a lot of reactionary nationalism to globalism as of now. But the way our problems and their potential solutions evolve more and more transnational, nationalism will inevitably cease to be something feasible or operative. It will not be much different than trying to establish tribalism, you just can't.
I ground my belief in two things here:
1. Multiculture, oh the irony, the very thing I am 100% against is something I defend but in another way. Media etc today are screaming multiculturalism, but in order to get that, you need different cultures and so all we get is a big mess with 1 big culture called "failed mess". I believe this will give rise to countries taking on more nationality than before,
2. When things get chaotic, be it from an economic crash or a robot situation, people return to their roots.
I believe nationalism is part of the game and it will continue to be part of it despite globalisation.
fred79 said:
i'd say, if you want a job that'll last, try electronics repair, network security, and the like. those are jobs that'll be much more prevalent than they are now(even moreso than they are now).
But that's only half true, cause sooner or later a robot that can perform that job will come aswell. xD
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 28, 2016 10:11 AM |
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artu said:
I don't think that's fair criticism.
The video never mentions, you can even say it's too careful not to mention a specific time frame. It only says robots will replace many humans as employees soon. In historical terms, soon can be 150 years. And although it's rather focused on the first world countries, once the change starts to occur, keep in mind that the poor countries will not need to be as rich as the Western ones for these to be implemented. From a capitalist point of view, for the rich elite who owns the factories and other means of production (who are not always local nationals in these times anyway), the machines don't need to be perfect, they just need to be a little better, cheaper and more efficient than the workers.
Also, it does not only focus on low-end labor. It mentions many white collar people are just as replaceable, in a way, more easily. I also think that AI's replacing artists is something stretched too far. A computer can make easy-listening melodies, even sophisticated ones but since at its core, "consuming" art is not just about enjoying a structure but relating to an emotional experience, it can never come close to something like Billie Holiday singing about heartbreak. Simulation has its limits.
Saying something *will* happen in the future borders fortune-telling and it is more than implied that "soon" is not after 100-200 years but something like within the life of a middle-aged man living now. Nobody cares what will happen in 100 years, people don't think that far and fearmongering built around a concept that the next several generations won't see manifested in reality is always met with "so what" and "cool, but not really my problem" reactions (the main reason why problems like global warming, pollution, widening of the economic gap between the regions and so on only increase in severity with time). The general idea is quite clear - technologies develop very quickly, basic labour provided by humans becomes obsolete and replaceable by machines, one day in the not so distant future you may find yourself competing on the job market with a robot - even if you're in a profession that requires high skills and prior training. What I'm saying is that this is very simplistic way to show these things and provokes the wrong conclusions.
Poor countries don't fit in this picture because economically they have only two possible advantages compared to the rich countries which a capitalist would take into account - cheap labour and often abundant raw resources. The cheap labour obviously doesn't count because replacing a worker earning 50$ per month with a robot would only make sense if the robot's maintenance is lower than 50$ per month - and in this case why move production somewhere else instead of keeping it at home? Resource extraction on the other hand can be automated but it would be incredibly naive to expect that some company will move to Sierra Leone and start mining diamonds exclusively with robots while all the locals idly sit and die of starvation in the background - something like that will involve nothing less than a deliberate conquest of the target territory which is a bit too far fetched, even if only because wars aren't getting any cheaper with time.
High-skill labour is also not so easy to replace with robots. First, it will take a lot of time for a robot to become skilled AND cheap enough to substitute and engineer, a physician, a scientist, etc. in all aspects of their work. It will be far closer to reality to claim that machines can assist in these professions - and I'd certainly agree with that - than to mass-invade them and kick the humans out. Just because some Japanese company has produced a computer that can best a human in some limited field after 100 million $ investment and years of development doesn't mean that these computers will start multiplying like rabbits all around the world soon enough. There are multiple examples of breakthrough technologies which just aren't getting implemented in practice for a long time, for various reasons - quite often because they remain expensive for mass application long after their introduction. And I really like to emphasize that the wonder machines are very often full of flaws which don't fix themselves. Only when a self-repairing and self-improving, highly intelligent AI that can be applied cheaply on a global scale is developed the high tier professions can feel threatened.
Finally there's the social factor. The video ignores it completely. Even if we assume that some super-smart, multifunctional and cheap to produce robot magically appears in the near future, this hardly means that it will be happily adopted by everyone. There are laws protecting the employees that can't be disposed of quickly. There's the built-in mistrust for something radically new which 99% of the people share, no matter how greedy they might be. Most of all there's the need to do something with the unemployed population which is by far each state's biggest problem for millennia - large unemployed masses mean disorder, riots, revolutions, all the bogeymen for a statesman or a capitalist. It is reasonable to expect that there will be a lot of caution and regulations and that a mass replacement of humans with robots just won't happen even in the far future, except in a scenario where alternative activities are developed for the human population that keep it from thrashing the progress for the sake of its survival.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 28, 2016 10:11 AM |
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fred79 said:
but not just everyone can learn new things. older people are becoming obsolete, just as much as older technology. imo, they go hand-in-hand. society is advancing far too quickly for the older generation to keep up.
I disagree. Elderly people can learn how to use new technologies, however, most of them simply don't want to because of their laziness that they justify with their age. Human brain has an amazing ability to learn new facts and abilities in the old age, you only need to have a will to do so.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted May 28, 2016 01:53 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
fred79 said:
but not just everyone can learn new things. older people are becoming obsolete, just as much as older technology. imo, they go hand-in-hand. society is advancing far too quickly for the older generation to keep up.
I disagree. Elderly people can learn how to use new technologies, however, most of them simply don't want to because of their laziness that they justify with their age. Human brain has an amazing ability to learn new facts and abilities in the old age, you only need to have a will to do so.
It's not about laziness (although seniors can just as easily be lazy as anybody else). It's the psychological barrier to climb over. You've already been through the long process of education and a career and potentially childrearing, and you don't have the confidence or the appetite or the energy to start over as a neophyte after all those years of acquiring experience and knowledge. At least for those that don't take an innate pleasure in learning for its own sake, which is the majority of people.
You see a similar attitude for somebody that has been unemployed or gravely underemployed for years. The light goes out of their eyes, so to speak, but in a far worse way than somebody transitioning into retirement or semi retirement. For the senior, the best years might still be ahead.
Besides, 'obsolete' is subjective to the situation. My 87 year old grandmother can't operate a smartphone because she has her routine and why is she suppose to give a damn about a little rectangle computer? She couldn't integrate herself back into the workforce, but that's nothing new.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted May 28, 2016 03:15 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
Besides, 'obsolete' is subjective to the situation. My 87 year old grandmother can't operate a smartphone because she has her routine and why is she suppose to give a damn about a little rectangle computer? She couldn't integrate herself back into the workforce, but that's nothing new.
You've made a good point here and I would add some devices are very difficult for the aged for other reason. Like tiny buttons and tiny letters. i.e. I'm not quite ancient yet but I have large hands and fingers and even with excellent dexterity I could not easily use the new phones my fingertips would easily hit two buttons at once. I know there are the little sticks but after using much large phones all of my life...using the pokers seem like a huge waste of time and concentration.
But eventually it will be possible to be Captain Kirk and just speak everything, so at least that nonsense will be ended for anyone of any age who detests the current tiny actions.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted May 28, 2016 03:26 PM |
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The small buttons aren't very easy for youth either, but it improves with experience. I was late getting on the smartphone bandwagon because the initial rates were like "lolololol", but after the first wave of trendy techy morons wasted their money on them and the costs plummeted it was time. I've improved hugely over the last year or so. You develop an intuitive sense for where to click.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted June 25, 2016 12:45 AM |
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Here is my brief and heavily snipped version of history as I have witnessed it during my life. I began working in 1967 at the age of 12.
Sorry, No Work
[trying to paint a brief picture]
I realize most folks here might hate this idea but lets take a look back in my life. Not centuries ago but back to 1955. When I was born, Disneyland, MacDonalds and Rock & Roll also began as businesses.
Back then, there were many various Department stores and Specialty stores that filled the Cities. Every small town had a Drug-Store, Hardware Store, multiple Grocery Stores, Lumber Yard, Cafe, Restaurants, Donut Shop, Burger Joints, and Gas Stations. Many still had a working Train-Station so people could get around the country even if they did not own a car. KCMO had electric light-rail in 1933 (it was called the inter-urban) that went out to a few small towns. Now we have no rails like that.
The Gas Station back then (and on into my younger years) typically had 2 young men working the drive and giving full service to “drive-up & stay in the car” customers. The drive-attendants checked oil, tires and washed the windows and this was standard-service. Inside the station was often the owner or someone hired to run the cash-register. If the station had two garage-bays there were usually two mechanics. Gas was less than .20 cents/gal.
Now you can get very expensive gas and see no person.
Banks had generally 4-6 tellers, a Greeter inside that greeted customers (and knew them) that answered the phone too, a couple of loan officers (that also notarized legal documents) sometimes a bank guard, and a vice-president and president.
Now you can get your monopoly-money (not the game) and can see no living human-being.
There were beautiful department stores in the recent past in cities and towns where many people worked and customers flocked. Trains and electric light-rail made this very easy to do.
Now, they are only unknown warehouses to where people sitting on their couch use a non-human screen to type...I want...send me.
***(a related aside)Then Big-Oil said Buses and 18-wheelers, think of all that gas-guzzled! AND the rubber for tires, belts and hoses!! Oh yes! And that Asphalt!!! Needed for thousands and thousands of re-surfacing the roads!!! Yippee!. Add-in the need to “drive out of your own town to get most stuff now” Get the idea er “business-plan” now?***
Btw, Chain-stores are indeed “chains” because everything is scripted with no deviation no unique places to eat or shop, no family businesses that thrive, etc. When you drive on an American Interstate the STATE was kind enough to sell signs to these same stinking chains that tell you up ahead will be these same damn series of Chains rotating every other exit or so. How nice…how exciting for travel!!! “I can drive forever and still experience the same things (or eat the very same crap) I left back home.”
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Moving on in time, Wal-Mart declared a business-war on small-town America and came in waving the red, white and blue U.S. flag. Soon all independent stores and small chain-stores were shut-down because Wal-Mart carried everything (made elsewhere) and took those oh so important American flags down, down and down. Every business I mentioned above, gone!, with one monster sitting in all their places. Folks this is MONOPOLY and a far worse virus than most any seen before in history because it was/is a Multi-National Corporation that had no stakes anywhere.
Flash forward to today, Wall-mart has long since won the war in the countryside everywhere and NOW they have made and are making new stores to go after the stores in the big Cities. They will win this war too because they have the Governments blessing to suppress wages by exploiting workers in other nations just like they have all along and will make all Americans shop at Wal-Mart. Er…All-Mart.
Now use your imaginations, yeah Wal-Mart is 1 huge company but look at the rich and varied work lives (Culture anyone?) it has destroyed here in its own <ahem> “once upon a time” homeland. Places for very young, the in-betweens and the very old to work are gone, where all ages of people used to mix. Places to earn a living, make friends, meet your future spouse and even community people like sponsors for baseball & football-leagues, etc, all gone….vanished without a trace except in a few memories.
Did they stop there? No.
Yesterday’s All-Mart Meeting; “Let the customers SCAN their own stuff!!! How nice. Lets get rid of the need for cashiers.
Then the few remaining competitors had a meeting; “What can WE do to survive? Hey! maybe the people will stock the shelves and sweep the floors! I know we’ll sell them hand-bags and grocery-carts to carry their stuff to check-out. What about the poor? We’ll have the shoppers save some empty boxes for them.” Those <ahem> competitors are mostly gone now.
Walmart today. “We need to get one huge warehouse on each continent and get rid of our stores. Yeah…Consumers not Customers. Oh hell…we’ve done that one in towns already.
Aha. Wait a minute! China is making Robots. Yesssssss! No gripes, no Unions, no sickness, no nothing from those awful low and middle-class vermin. Wait! What can we invest our huge profits in? Well, people DO leave their couch or the PC once in a great while when they are listless, bored or angry; Hmm, how about gated-communities? That’s it!
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"Do your own research"
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 25, 2016 01:28 AM |
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Edited by EnergyZ at 01:31, 25 Jun 2016.
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Wow, I am pretty certain you are the oldest person I met on the internet so far. At least in public.
Anyway, on the topic. I can see the error of such things and I agree. But this isn't necessarily the fault of technology. I say it is just pure capitalism, the "free" market, where a big company can just buy small ones and fire everyone. I can't say where went wrong, but fact is that rich people become richer and poor people become, well, poorer.
This all is sad, really. But that's how the world and business go. There were certainly jobs that now are being replaced by machines. But it's all because of the desire to make more money and spend less wherever it is needed. As said before, rich people become richer, and thus the thirst of power becomes stronger, and less and less people may be able to stop them, as unfortunate as it is. Would a company hire 30 workers or buy a machine that can replace those 30 workers? It's definitive that the aim is towards modernization, to have an automatic system that costs little and gives much.
Besides, it is not even a recent thing. Even in 15th century, when Johannes Gutenberg invented the press machine to stamp out books, everything was being transcribed, mostly by monks. Maybe they did complain, but life went on and the machine operated. It's nearly as same as today, just that machines are being used widely.
And it is not like there is much an option to go back by using the 20s assembly line to make a car, for example. Life goes on and there is not much that can be done against it, only to save our memories. I mean, looking hundreds of years ago, there were different traditions, which vanished. But new ways spout out to make new memories. Hence you got Facebook, Twitter, mobile phones and tablets and other things to contact people. Whether the new way is better than the old is debatable, but things are still progressing.
It's definitively obvious that there has to be a change in the system. Otherwise, there will be more poor people and those without jobs.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 25, 2016 04:42 AM |
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That's a negative spin on some very positive developments. Walmart comes in and provides a good baseline experience for shoppers - no matter where I go, I can expect to find a Walmart and find certain goods there, and for it to be cheap and convenient. With mom and pop stores, there's no such guarantee. It also hardly needs saying that the greatest beneficiaries of Walmart's cheap stuff are poor people. I've lived in areas with "thriving" mom-and-pop stores because the locals wouldn't allow Walmart (or even Target) to build in the area, and it sucked. It was expensive, crowded, and the quality of service wasn't as good.
Or consider e-commerce. You had to go to the bank, interact with the greeter and/or tellers, and then you finally got your money. I've worked at a local bank that prided itself on its traditionalism and this kind of relationship to customers, and I'm glad that there are better alternatives, and judging by the popularity of bigger banks, it seems many others share my preferences. And of course Amazon.com is one of the greatest institutions of the contemporary era - not only can I select among an enormous variety of goods (far beyond what any physical store can offer), I can read reviews so I can learn about the product, I can comparison shop with other sites with ease, my orders are delivered to my door, and I can do all of this without getting out of bed. Anything that lets me simultaneously buy my favorite kind of tea, semi-obscure translated novels, toilet paper, and textbooks without me having to put my pants on is a great thing in my book.
Let's be grateful we live now and not in the 50s. Thank you, capitalism.
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Eccentric Opinion
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 25, 2016 05:23 AM |
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mvassilev said:
Let's be grateful we live now and not in the 50s. Thank you, capitalism.
yeah, there's nothing like helping people consume the world's resources even easier than before, is there? and all they have to do to keep from even leaving the house, is to pop out as many kids as they can, so they can collect welfare, since they can't find(or find it EASIER to not) have jobs.
because of capitalism's strive for "progress". 
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 25, 2016 08:28 AM |
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Quote:
Anything that lets me simultaneously buy my favorite kind of tea, semi-obscure translated novels, toilet paper, and textbooks without me having to put my pants on is a great thing in my book.
Actually sitting on your ass too much is not that great, you will probably find it out one day when your spine starts conspiring against you and your metabolism slows down to a level of making even a minor flu several weeks long joy. Besides, you can go to the store without putting your pants on if that bothers you so much, XXI century and all.
And yeah, claiming that capitalism invented these things is like claiming that the ancients came up with mathematics because they used slave labour.
@markkur, low-quality labour is not supposed to be maintained if it can be substituted with something else. It pays bad, the unskilled workers are prone to exploitation because there is always a huge supply of them available and the employer can take advantage of that, the job is usually mechanical, repetitive and ultimately damaging to the brain qualities. The education system should aim to reduce the number of workers who can't do anything but use their limbs to move objects - no matter if they are crates at the dock or groceries at the supermarket's cash register - that is not sustainable in the long run. There will always be an aspiration to make the simple labour more productive and less time-consuming, to the point of leaving it to other tools where possible (I suppose you don't do your laundry by hand for example) and that has nothing to do with greed and is certainly not where the system fails.
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted June 25, 2016 12:23 PM |
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Edited by yogi at 12:25, 25 Jun 2016.
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mvassilev that is one of the most asinine, narrow minded things ive ever read. self-righteousness and ignorance are nearly synonymous.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted June 25, 2016 10:58 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 23:15, 25 Jun 2016.
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Zenofex said:
@markkur, low-quality labour is not supposed to be maintained if it can be substituted with something else. It pays bad, the unskilled workers are prone to exploitation because there is always a huge supply of them available and the employer can take advantage of that, the job is usually mechanical, repetitive and ultimately damaging to the brain qualities. The education system should aim to reduce the number of workers who can't do anything but use their limbs to move objects - no matter if they are crates at the dock or groceries at the supermarket's cash register - that is not sustainable in the long run. There will always be an aspiration to make the simple labour more productive and less time-consuming, to the point of leaving it to other tools where possible (I suppose you don't do your laundry by hand for example) and that has nothing to do with greed and is certainly not where the system fails.
Well Zeno, you are normally one of the bright ones here at HC but not this time. I find it very odd that as being a man of Faith I often have to remind people of Science. Unless Man plays God with Genetics (some of this is already going on) there will always be folks with low IQs and just as important, people with strong-bodies or inventive minds that want to work with their hands or with their hands + smarts.
I know I will likely be shouted down by most here but work is very important to our bodies. Sitting in offices (cubicle-slaves) - no freaking way - NO. Looking at screens versus nature - NO. Interacting with Machines and not people - NO.
People that cannot do a damned thing when it comes to the old ways of life WILL one day regret it. It's just a matter of time.
You should side with me on this but you can't because you are too taken in by this <ahem> modern techno world and that's sad to me. The thing most destructive about Machines over Humans is this utopian stuff will never stop. If we had keep this to "tools for people" than things would be very different today around the world and we would not have large masses of people standing about or sitting on the backsides with nothing to do.
If this "Human-replacement done by GREED INC." continues human life will not be worth much as has already been proven. You mentioned the exploitation of human labor. This is already epidemic and to take even more grunt work away and replace it with nothing is going to make the world wonderful again? No man, it will not.
So many today want a Techno-utopian world that can only end up as cities with Robots taking care of Human-Brains sitting in tubs of some sort of electrical solution that go on Virtual-Reality holidays. Especially if you believe in evolution, where the species adapts to what it is NOT doing. Not for me...ever.
This world is already full of Technology that is NOT all "tools for the masses".(like a washing machine for housewives when they actually raised the world's children) Compared to the 50s Tech has already exploded but look at the world today...it is already a mess. AND the greatest TECHs are in our Military War Machines. It's late but a return to our true roots is very much needed.
Once upon a time a younger Markkur asked himself what if all my TECH ceased, what sort of man would I be then? No better then men that lived centuries ago and in many cases much more inept at surviving and living in the natural world was the truthful answer.
The battle was always "tools for private-life" versus "slavery in automated institutions" within a single country - we have lost that life-changing conflict. Now it has went beyond, to multiple world-impacts with never a moment of caution.
Edit = Came back to add a simple idea about standing in the same spot doing the same thing. Well over 30 years ago we began training our men to do multiple jobs (and they were happy-fellows) and rotated their work. I did almost every job in that Factory and would later Supervise 5 different departments. We CAN make things better without TECH.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 26, 2016 01:53 PM |
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markkur said:
I know I will likely be shouted down by most here but work is very important to our bodies. Sitting in offices (cubicle-slaves) - no freaking way - NO. Looking at screens versus nature - NO. Interacting with Machines and not people - NO.
But what will really happen if you have no technology? Meaning no means of transportation, no communication, no electricity. That would just be going a step back than a step forward. Besides, you are even contradicting yourself - you even used technology to post this comment of yours.
markkur said:
If this "Human-replacement done by GREED INC." continues human life will not be worth much as has already been proven. You mentioned the exploitation of human labor. This is already epidemic and to take even more grunt work away and replace it with nothing is going to make the world wonderful again? No man, it will not.
Well yes, but can you blame people who want to earn more money by saving costs? Well, maybe you could, but that's just a logical conclusion to save money. Besides, as some people pointed out, today is the time where such jobs are frowned upon, and people have to study more to earn more. Plus, the problem is also in the overpopulation; if the number of people in the world continues rising, you'll have too many people to feed, to give them jobs, a place to live and much more what the people need.
markkur said:
People that cannot do a damned thing when it comes to the old ways of life WILL one day regret it. It's just a matter of time.
Now that's a bit far-fetched. I mean, what are the old ways? Are they the time before the steam machine was invented, during the time of feudal era? Or is it even after, when a lot of people worked in coal mines and factories, risking their lives for a small salary?
This greed is nothing more than thirst for money. Don't confuse technology with it. There was greed even centuries ago, just that in these times of liberty, it is much harder to stop.
markkur said:
Compared to the 50s Tech has already exploded but look at the world today...it is already a mess. AND the greatest TECHs are in our Military War Machines. It's late but a return to our true roots is very much needed.
True enough. But that's what you get after World War II, and further developed during the Cold War. And it certainly isn't stopping either, when you got today's threats.
Besides, have you ever thought how technology helps human lives? Pretty certain without it there'd be more diseases, more deaths, a lesser education system in developed countries etc. As said before, you wouldn't even contact us without technology, yes? And then there are the online multiplayer games people enjoy, including that Tournament of Honor.
Just pointing out that maybe some things are lost, but new ones are gained and acquired.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted June 26, 2016 08:20 PM |
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Greetings young one. 
EnergyZ said:
Wow, I am pretty certain you are the oldest person I met on the internet so far. At least in public.
I had to come back and grab that statement. I laughed quite a bit. And also I should thank you for the high-honor.
EnergyZ said:
But what will really happen if you have no technology? Meaning no means of transportation, no communication, no electricity. That would just be going a step back than a step forward. Besides, you are even contradicting yourself - you even used technology to post this comment of yours.
Remember, The Thread is about GREED Tech versus Humans. That is not a call to destroy all TECH. It IS a call to stop replacing human beings on the Work-Front only. To this point, as far as adjustments to what exists i.e. How about when 1 huge multinational corporation that wants to replace even more live human bodies with ROBOTS (the China article) humanity says...enough is enough, it is freakin enough!!! People NEED work! (I think more radically roll-backs are needed but no one here is going to get it apparently, so I'm not going there)
And know from the start of any change like this that since a very large part of the populations of existing Western countries have became very used to receiving enough money "to leisurely survive" without doing an hour's worth of work of ANY kind, will oppose this with all the energy that they usually never use in a truly productive way beyond making more babies to get more money.
EnergyZ said:
Well yes, but can you blame people who want to earn more money by saving costs? Well, maybe you could, but that's just a logical conclusion to save money. Besides, as some people pointed out, today is the time where such jobs are frowned upon, and people have to study more to earn more. Plus, the problem is also in the overpopulation; if the number of people in the world continues rising, you'll have too many people to feed, to give them jobs, a place to live and much more what the people need.
EnergyZ Corporations are not people. This would take this old wizard (think Radagast)too long to explain all the details of the "past and present". Please study about the history of Corporations and their decisions regarding the work-forces and environments etc.
EnergyZ said:
Now that's a bit far-fetched. I mean, what are the old ways? Are they the time before the steam machine was invented, during the time of feudal era? Or is it even after, when a lot of people worked in coal mines and factories, risking their lives for a small salary?
Chill man. I am talking about the basics. You want to talk some TECH? How about knowing how to grow food? Isn't a solid understand of what kind of plant needs what sort of soil? Isn't that a TECH development of a sort? I will give you an idea to run with and profit by. The Aztecs (1400s?) were not powerful yet and short of food for their people; their soils had been overused. What did they do when no TECH CORP ruled their lives? They built what was called "Chunampas". (not sure of the spelling)They made long reed/wood-grids by interlacing the Wood and reeds like the wattle & Daub wall structures the Britons eventually made for shelter. Once they had the grids they put mud from the river-bottoms onto the new garden-beds. They knew how much mud (eventually partial dirt) to put on top to grow the native plants like corn. They made lots of these "floating-gardens" (think of the time savings with regard to watering the plants...and prospered. So much so that they conquered most of Mexico.
What else would a person need to know if the power-grid failed for a long time? It would depend when and how long...right?
<imvho> Men (at the very least) should 'preferably' know basic stuff like "how to make a shelter" "how to grow food", how to make a fire and how to cook & bake on a fire and how to take game with a bow. These things might not ever be needed but look at WWII. That is not The Stone-age right? Because of WAR, Britons had to all of a sudden grow "Victory-Gardens" all over the island in public places. However, the 40s were not at all far removed from a farming culture. But that was then and this is 70 years later.
Beside the fact that knowing some of this stuff could come in handy, <imo> it might prove a joy to get outside and learn this stuff. You know, like really good fun?
EnergyZ said:
This greed is nothing more than thirst for money. Don't confuse technology with it. There was greed even centuries ago, just that in these times of liberty, it is much harder to stop.
Respectfully I am confusing nothing. Greed when a baby takes another babies candy is one level or one country steals from another during war a higher level. But today we have unseen enemies to mankind using TECH to maximize THEIR PROFITS and to hell with people the environment or any damned reason. Checks and balances about impacts on human-life & societal impacts do NOT exist.
EnergyZ said:
True enough. But that's what you get after World War II, and further developed during the Cold War. And it certainly isn't stopping either, when you got today's threats.
And you argument is? 
EnergyZ said:
Besides, have you ever thought how technology helps human lives? Pretty certain without it there'd be more diseases, more deaths, a lesser education system in developed countries etc.
Again, TECH versus Humans is about WORK not keeping someone alive. I would not tell a fireman to walk into a blazing building without a fire-suit. When TECH is a TOOL or saves lives I am all for it but I am not for it when it completely destroys the majority civilization's basic livelihoods in the name of progress. You will never see Corporations having only an Engineering Department and see the rest of Society even function unless that engineering is on the folks themselves.
As far as ED...Research the whole notion of higher-education in the West today. Don't skim it but dig in and do a dedicated research of the entire system. You will not like what you learn.
EnergyZ said:
As said before, you wouldn't even contact us without technology, yes?
Remember what I said about "Tools for the Masses". Does the Internet met this requirement? Yes.
EnergyZ said:
And then there are the online multiplayer games people enjoy, including that Tournament of Honor.
Ok...OK...I yield. How can I not to such wisdom? <LOL>
EnergyZ said:
Just pointing out that maybe some things are lost, but new ones are gained and acquired.
You are a respectful poster, never feel you cannot question me. I am not a know-it-all I just believe I bring a perspective that few here can have. It is not possible to witness 6 decades if you have only lived 2. Far worse is the speed at which changes have happened, thus, if this continues, people born ten years apart could have significant differences regarding experiences.
I will end this with a comment about old people.
Because of a rather unfortunate childhood when all my adult family members were taken from me at the age of 12 I was drawn to the aged around me. It is a very long story but let me say it this way. Because of my needs, openness, respect and attitudes over decades I developed real family connections (love & spirit)with many that were not blood-relations. I learned a lot from men & women living the last years of their life.
I think it is very sad that most families today are so broken and for so many reasons that there is a serious failure on the part of the younger folks to consider the natural-resources they might have in the Aged of society and also from people the may actually give a damn about them. Despite all the marvels today, I have found Human-nature has not really went anywhere. It's the same old salad but with a new dressing.
Knowledge is Power right? So even if youngsters today just cannot get off their duffs and get outdoors or just do not have anywhere to go I would suggest investing in own some real-books. At least if you had a small library you could read how to do things if it were ever needed. You can go to used sales of all kinds and find how-to books for next to nothing in cost.
If you have some cash at hand and want a treasure trove of information I would suggest the "FoxFire series". Some professor thought it important to document how the old mountain-folk eastern U.S. had made their farms, homes and lived life. Also, how knowledge had been transferred from old to young. These reads might be fun to read but I am not suggesting you study anything more than the basics I've already stated and you don't need these for that necessarily. But having this info at the fingertip could prove useful one day. And maybe not for you but your kid or grandkid etc.
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"Do your own research"
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 26, 2016 10:43 PM |
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I guess I did carry myself over in certain comments. And I can see your points.
But it's not that it is anything strange or new happening on the world. Such things have happened before, by introducing the steam machine (which I mentioned already). A lot of people protested and even destroyed the machines, yet they were arrested and factories and companies still worked. It's not like those companies were obliged to keep those workers, but it's certainly rough.
That company from China that was mentioned, 60 000 people getting fired is a big number. But did they do anything notable? Was their salary high? It is a problem, yes, but those people certainly have other skills they could use, right? I guess if nothing else works, there's always the military to join. Everyone should have some purpose.
It is definitive that, today, people should at least finish collages to have some function in the world. Technology will certainly improve and replace people. I still believe the overpopulation is a problem in this case as well; how else are such people expected to live, when there are limited number of jobs to give out, which require an expertise?
I don't think one can stop robots replacing humans at work. What can be done, though, is to keep trying your best and hope your child (or children) get an education, worthy of a future job. Besides, there could be hidden talents people are not aware of, like music, painting, literature or something else.
But I say a far much greater greed shown is in my country. Well, it's just that some companies' owners (and the higher-ranking officials) do not give out the workers paycheck for months. And then when the company is on the brink of destruction, those directors just take all their money, promise the workers it will be fine and disappear without a trace. Not certain how things are in other countries, but it's true in here, and it goes for a lot of companies.
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Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 26, 2016 10:43 PM |
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I'm certainly not advocating the sedentary way of life, however that has nothing to do with low-end labour. I myself work in an office, 95% of the time just sitting on the chair, staring at the monitor and typing on the keyboard. Yet that does not stop me to go the gym after work or go for a stroll in the mountain during the weekend. Someone's profession, whatever it is (except if it is extremely time-consuming, but that crosses the border of the health hazard), is not an obstacle if you want to become or remain fit, it's entirely a matter of motivation.
The other thing, that there will always be dumb people and they will need jobs, is way too simplistic and I suspect that you think like that just because the basic education in the US is not known to produce Einsteins. People who are so dumb that they can't do anything but mechanically move stuff around are clinical cases, everyone possessing enough IQ (for the lack of better identifier) to speak, read, write and comprehend basic abstract concepts - which would be the vast majority of the human population - can be taught more advanced skills than those of a porter. No need to mess with the genes, the material is already available so the issue not natural but social. One of the main purposes of the education is to reduce the number of workers who can't do anything but work as mules to the very minimum - and increase the number of those who can perform more complex tasks, possibly in more than one or two fields. The problem is with teaching people in large numbers such skills, not with their built-in ability to comprehend them.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 27, 2016 09:18 AM |
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Markkur, you have to see the sign of the times. Negative interest rates on money are already a reality: Look here under "Deposit Facility" - this is what other banks "get" when they deposit money there: MINUS .4% which means they LOSE money when they are depositing it (they want the banks to do something, anything with the money).
Now some banks are indeed offering credits with a negative interest rate - at this point only to towns, communes and so on, but it's a trend.
The reason for this is, that the need for everyone to spend their goddamn money as completely and fast as possible is even increasing, because THAT is what is keeping capitalism going at this point.
There is another trend and that's producing for individual demand. How many different kinds of cars could you buy 30 or 40 years ago? Sedan, Station Wagon, Truck, Cabriolet, Coupé. Today?
On the other hand, MASS products are getting cheaper and cheaper, so the future isn't that difficult to foresee.
Basic production will run on full auto, and everyone, job or not, will get a basic amount of money to participate in the mass market. Having a job and a better income will mean tailor-made stuff for you. You don't believe that? Well, How about that?
Yup, Switzerland had a referendum, and, yes, they turned it down, but take a minute and think about it. They actually had a referendum about it! About a basic income for everyone. The current government in Finland has agreed to start an experiment with "negative income tax" (you see how they avoid the "gift" word here as well): people who take on a low-income job will GET additional money from the government instead of having to pay taxes (the aim is, to make long-time unemployment less attractive and low-income jobs more so).
In truth, we've been there and done that. Think Roman Empire. They conquered countries and enslaved people - working machines, because they were "robots", things -, and the plebs in Rome got panem et circensis, bread and bulls as the Spanish would call it.
For us, things look decidedly better, because we'll get not only food and sports, but also THE INTERNET AND TELEVISION.
In a mere 2 generations "a job" will not be a burden anymore, but a privilege. Water will contain stuff that make people infertile, in order to get a "negative birth rate". Once we run on full auto, we'll have to repair the damage we did and clean up the waste - and even that will be done by machines, mostly.
The times, they are not only a-changing, they are a-changing ever faster. Think about how the worls has been looking a century ago. World War I was raging. Few automobiles were running on dirt roads. People were thinking about the possibility of using electric trains instead of steam trains - and the war saw the use of planes as well. The world has changed a lot since then, and it will change a hell of a lot more until 2116. Children who are born now will live in a more different world in 2100, than those who were born in 1916 have lived in in 2000.
Of course, all that may come with a price - everything does, after all -, but what is the alternative? And here we are at our fantasy scenario - a pastoral landscape with villages and the odd town, everyone working with their hands, being baker or smith or peasant, with clear, fresh water running in streams, where virgins can tame unicorns and sometimes lightning strikes in the vicinity of a strange tower where an old feller with a long beard lives who does strange things.
But that's just fantasy.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 27, 2016 12:29 PM |
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Edited by artu at 12:34, 27 Jun 2016.
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JJ said:
The times, they are not only a-changing, they are a-changing ever faster. Think about how the worls has been looking a century ago. World War I was raging. Few automobiles were running on dirt roads. People were thinking about the possibility of using electric trains instead of steam trains - and the war saw the use of planes as well. The world has changed a lot since then, and it will change a hell of a lot more until 2116. Children who are born now will live in a more different world in 2100, than those who were born in 1916 have lived in in 2000.
Of course, all that may come with a price - everything does, after all -, but what is the alternative? And here we are at our fantasy scenario - a pastoral landscape with villages and the odd town, everyone working with their hands, being baker or smith or peasant, with clear, fresh water running in streams, where virgins can tame unicorns and sometimes lightning strikes in the vicinity of a strange tower where an old feller with a long beard lives who does strange things.
Not exactly a counter-point but I don't exactly agree with this, I think that since the 1920's or 1930's (depending on the country you live in), urban life is fundamentally the same, there's a city with cars and traffic and crowds, various kinds of specialized people do different tasks, in the evening they can read a book or watch a movie, listen to some music and dance with the spouse or go hang out with friends. Now in the 30's you'd have to go to a cinema, in the 60's TV would do, in the 80's you would rent a video cassette and now it's usually the internet. You can listen to your industrially duplicated music (as opposed to live players) from the radio, an LP, a CD or again, internet nowadays, the places you hang out can be called a tavern, bar, disco or a night club but the daily experience of an ordinary person hasn't really changed that much. I mean sure, science and technology advanced almost with a frenzy and what we've learned about the universe and earth in the last 50 years overwhelmingly surpasses what we had learned in the last 10.000. We can make animated documentaries about eco-systems that existed 500 million years ago or we can send gadgets outside of our solar system but when you look at "a day in the life," what you go through compared with grandpa from the 30's, is still relatively less different than the gap between 1890 and 1930.
Edit: Of course, this comment is limited to places that went through industrialization and urbanization, if you are some villager living on some distant Tibet mountain, it might be 1767 as well.
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