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| Thread: Heroes Theory: Asymmetry & Balance | |
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted June 11, 2016 12:35 PM |
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Edited by yogi at 12:36, 11 Jun 2016.
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Heroes Theory: Asymmetry & Balance
TLDR below.[The Heroes of Might and Magic games are some of the most brilliant games ever designed. They not only ensured a beautiful transcription to the new interactive digital medium of so many wonderful mythological and spiritual archetypes from around the world, they also bring them all together under some of the most elegant multi-player game mechanics ever devised. JVC and family didn't stop there though. They delved into the deepest recesses of the human fun zone, and passed down the power of creation to the players. They didn't just create worlds to explore, but an entire tool kit for gods. The Heroes of Might and Magic games are more than games, they are systems for self-discovery. This has spawned communities from around the world, and given rise to entirely new ways of sharing with other human beings. There is no end to the possibilities that one can explore, or even just the discussions that can be had. Case in point, this thread.
Now this also leads us to another question. Just how far down did JVC and family go? How deep and intricate are the systems beneath the Heroes of Might and Magic franchise Luckily, the answer is irrelevant. They ensured that just asking the question will lead one to such joy that suddenly the sun is coming up because sleep is no longer necessary.
So in the spirit of the quest, let's explore the farthest reaches of:]*
TLDR:
Asymmetry and Balance in the Heroes games.
* This is the first of my Heroes Theory threads.
First, let's define what we mean by asymmetry, and balance.
Soccer is a symmetrical game.
However just because a game is competitive does not mean that the players need to be restricted by the same set of rules for it to be fair; regardless of whether the players are human or AI. A very basic example of this can be found in almost any card game, where no two players can have the same card. However the game is considered fair because all players share equal potential for acquiring any card, as there is only 1 of each in a deck. An exaggeration of this can be found in Magic The Gathering, or almost any CCG, where every player customizes their own deck, yet are bound by the same rules. An extreme example can be found in Dungeons & Dragons, where the players and the Game Master are practically playing different games, yet again are bound together by a strict set of rules, and the dice gods. In fact, any turn based game is asymmetrical, as turn order itself impresses upon each player a slightly more offensive or defensive play style. Offense has initiative, defense has foresight. Keep this in mind as we discuss asymmetry & balance in the Heroes of Might & Magic games. All of these scenarios are considered fair even though each player has unique capabilities. This is asymmetrical balance. It is one of the most difficult things to manage in game design, and one of the core tenets of the Heroes of Might and Magic franchise - embedded within the very title: heroes of might and heroes of magic. This leads us to our next topic, the most basic form of asymmetrical balance: counters. Might vs. Magic. Strong vs. Fast. JVC and family expanded the mechanics even greater with systems like melee being strong against flyers, flyers being strong against ranged, and ranged being strong against melee; and different terrain types, etc. etc. Within the Heroes of Might and Magic mechanics there is a near infinite number of ways in which to differentiate factions; and now we have at least 2 game play modes in which to balance them - strategically, and for tactical duels.
With so many possibilities, it's next to impossible to truly achieve balance. Herein lies the brilliance of the original mechanics laid out by JVC and family. Remember how in a turn based game turn order impresses a slight counterweight to each players play style? This is because time itself is an inherent mechanic in everything. Soccer attempts to negate it as a factor in determining the better team by permitting both sides to act upon a sphere in the center of a symmetrical field at the exact same time. In a 1 on 1 turn based game, the first player gains offensive initiative, and the second gains defensive foresight. In the Heroes of Might and Magic games we can have up to 8 players. JVC and family understood how prominent time is as a factor in everything, and expanded the game mechanics to accommodate. Some factions are strong in the early game, some in the mid game, and some in the late game.  Balance is achieved within the context of an entire game. Incorporating this one fundamental mechanic permits for so much more variety in the factions, as their armies don't actually have to be equal in strength. Some factions can attain end game armies quicker, but are slightly weaker than those that require more resources and development. Asymmetrical Balance.
Now we have an awesome new game mode - the tactical duel. 1 on 1, end game army vs. end game army. There are two simple ways of balancing the same factions for this arena. Unit abilities, and numbers. However when you consider the whole game, attaining asymmetrical balance is nothing short of ingenious.
"JVC and family didn't stop there though. They delved into the deepest recesses of the human fun zone, and passed down the power of creation to the players. They didn't just create worlds to play in, but an entire tool kit for gods. The Heroes of Might and Magic games are more than games, they are systems for self-discovery."
To that end, after creating one of the most eclectic yet miraculously asymmetrically balanced multi-player games, they then proceeded to throw balance out the window and toss a little spice into the sandbox; without compromising the underlying perfection. After all, we are gods.
The more toys in the multi-player sandbox the more fun the single player experience. The campaigns in the Heroes games are to inspire the creative spark within, demonstrating the engine's capabilities.
Unfortunately this knowledge appears to have been lost in the great cataclysm between New World Computing and Ubisoft. Hopefully these words will find their way to the right eyes. Please share your thoughts too.
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 11, 2016 01:58 PM |
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Well, soccer isn't really a symmetrical game, in the absolute meaning. Soccer players skills are rarely identical, you have one which runs faster, another who defends better, one which jumps higher, and so on. So you have 11 players indeed on each side and an equal terrain, but when you look at individual performances, running 50 meters do not represent same effort for everyone, catching a high ballon is easier for the tallest and so on.
The prices of soccer players correctly and scandalously reflects that. 
And such is heroes game, with heroes specialties being obviously very asymmetrical, creatures with different abilities, towns with different cost. I recall back in toh, a lot of newcomers asking for same conditions on both sides, then one guy sat down and designed 100% symmetrical maps, where both sides had access to same heroes, artifacts, neutrals, treasure and same towns.
Guess what, no one played them, because that meant that the best player will always win. And that's what kept people playing again, the hope that an unexpected event could change the natural and right order.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 11, 2016 03:18 PM |
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That much is obvious and that is what I dislike about ubi's direction. Too much symmetry. Take H2, not all units had an upgrade and dungeon dragons had two. Crusaders were easier to build than dragons and had higher growth but dragons were far more powerful. And that was great!
Seeing the current 'crusaders' having almost equal stats to the dragons is plain disappointing. Symmetry is easier to balance but it also makes factions more alike, less unique.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 11, 2016 03:28 PM |
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I am sorry to disagree in this specific case, but from my online experience, it was 100% impossible to win against a warlock or sorceress faction if knight and opponent of decent skill. Combined to the fact that heroes got full movement upon rehiring, then to the fact that spells did so much damage compared to several high level units HP, it was hopeless. Thats why I believe H3 addressed this in so many ways, including nearly symmetric HP stats. But leaved the unexpected in many other areas, hopefully.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 11, 2016 05:45 PM |
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That's a matter of math and balancing. Not that I object to the H3 way but some asymmetry here and there would be nice.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted June 12, 2016 04:23 AM |
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Galaad said:
What I mean is the first 5 Heroes game are certainly not balanced so we need to agree what multiplayer actually suggests.
Multiplayer need not imply symmetry; and asymmetry need not imply imbalance.
Galaad said:
H6 tried to have more focus on battles and scrapped almost everything aside, most people hated it, H7 tried some... whatever... yet again the thing is boring.
h6 is just evidence that the team at ubi behind the mmh games havent gone as deep and insightful as JVC and family, and still have yet to figure out what the homm games are about, or who their target audience is... they removed half the mechanics from the originals and shrank the game in every way, and tried to streamline a series of mythological, strategy sandboxes targeted at intellectuals into competitive, role-playing theme parks targeted at the masses. a labor for money will never compete with a labor of love.
Galaad said:
Why is H7 boring? Partly because there has been too much focus precisely on the multiplayer aspect (that and the campaigns, which led to even more of a mess), worrying about balance and such, taking away uniqueness from factions and creatures and giving generic heroes for example.
i havent played enough of h7 to really comment, but from what ive read the inverse seems true - h7 appears to be mostly diminished due to prioritizing the single-player campaigns over the multi-player strategic sandbox.
Galaad said:
Of course we can multi any homm all we want, but when you go competitive there is sets of rules quite changing the game (banning factions for instance, or skills, or spells, or artifacts, or heroes, these are no light changes)
^this is exactly what the HoMM games are about: providing a strategic, multiplayer, asymmetrical sandbox filled to the brim with so many mythological toys that we can make our own games; balanced, or imbalanced, the choice is ours.
someone at ubi read this^ please, i summon thee
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted June 12, 2016 06:30 AM |
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Edited by yogi at 10:19, 12 Jun 2016.
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Salamandre said:
Well, soccer isn't really a symmetrical game
the game is symmetrical, the players are not. no two people are the same, this is what makes multiplayer games fun.
Salamandre said:
And such is heroes game, with heroes specialties being obviously very asymmetrical, creatures with different abilities, towns with different cost. I recall back in toh, a lot of newcomers asking for same conditions on both sides, then one guy sat down and designed 100% symmetrical maps, where both sides had access to same heroes, artifacts, neutrals, treasure and same towns.
Guess what, no one played them, because that meant that the best player will always win. And that's what kept people playing again, the hope that an unexpected event could change the natural and right order.
fun symmetrical games are actually much harder to design than asymmetrical ones, because they must be so much deeper to retain replay value. luckily, JVC and friends gave us a balanced framework of asymmetrical toys with which to play out any scenario we desire: symmetrical, asymmetrical, or completely arbitrary; with up to 7 other people if we want. we can create worlds together, explore unknown lands together, cooperate on quests, compete for domination, make friends, make enemies, or explore our own individual fun zones 
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 13, 2016 01:15 AM |
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yogi said:
Galaad said:
Why is H7 boring? Partly because there has been too much focus precisely on the multiplayer aspect (that and the campaigns, which led to even more of a mess), worrying about balance and such, taking away uniqueness from factions and creatures and giving generic heroes for example.
i havent played enough of h7 to really comment, but from what ive read the inverse seems true - h7 appears to be mostly diminished due to prioritizing the single-player campaigns over the multi-player strategic sandbox.
Yeah actually, like Nat said.
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 17, 2016 12:16 PM |
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Its insanely hard (impossible ) to make a game balanced on all possible maps that a human mind can think of. Not to mention a noob mapmaker.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 17, 2016 01:42 PM |
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Naturally, every map has its own balance. I remember the toh days where we more or less knew how good each race was on each map  I would at least attempt to avoid serious imbalances in early, mid and lategame. Doable with a general idea of what is possible to build within each timeframe, an estimated hero level range and some testing.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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GMnemonic
Hired Hero
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posted August 07, 2016 07:49 AM |
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Elvin said:
That much is obvious and that is what I dislike about ubi's direction. Too much symmetry. Take H2, not all units had an upgrade and dungeon dragons had two. Crusaders were easier to build than dragons and had higher growth but dragons were far more powerful. And that was great!
Seeing the current 'crusaders' having almost equal stats to the dragons is plain disappointing. Symmetry is easier to balance but it also makes factions more alike, less unique.
This is the problem. every faction creature is the same in stats and abbilities. I've shouted this 100 times during homm 7 deveolopment on their forums nbut nobody listened hiding in their homm is too complex of a game to make lie. Because that just isent true.
Mentality changed from passion and imagination to production and quick cash in.
Resulting that every game system gets simplified every iteration and the one thing they got right the graphics in homm6 got screwed up as cost reduction. resulting in the first title I just never will buy in the series. Sad to say. I hope Homm gets a real budget and marketing back
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