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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: UK's EU referendum
Thread: UK's EU referendum This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 24, 2016 09:11 AM

Gryphs said:
artu said:
Ok, then let me ask it this way. What is the categorical difference between Texas and Prussia or the Republic of Genova? There are many historical differences, of course. But the "nation states" you mention are mostly younger than "the United States" chronologically.
Prussia and the Republic of Genoa (I assume? I have never heard of Genova) no longer exist so I am unsure what you are asking. If you are referring to the short time Texas was a nation keep in mind it had no national history or identity like European nations have today.

It's spelled with a V in my language, don't be a smartass now. The thing is, if we were in the 19th century, a lot of the "nations" that you take for granted now, were also non-exsistent. They had their ideologists, but the national solidarity was not there. I mean, we have Italian or German members here, please intrude guys. Let them tell you how a Genovan and a Sicillian did not identify themselves as "Italian first" historically.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 24, 2016 09:19 AM

Salamandre said:
One word: immigration.

People from Europe feel solidary each other, but they will continue to refuse anything which dilutes their identity. Thats the reason of Brexit, and will be the reason of Frexit and whatever. And is also the reason east countries prefer leaving EU. Nobody cares about economical equations it doesn't understand anyway.

That seems like the heart of it, yes. As long as the ones rushing in wont give up their medieval BS, your locals will have an understandable reaction to it, let's hope that reaction won't screw up the ideal of a united Europe in the long term. I still think it's a worthy ideal.
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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted June 24, 2016 09:28 AM

artu said:
It's spelled with a V in my language, don't be a smartass now.
I was not trying to be I was honestly not sure if it was something I did not know of, sorry.

artu said:
The thing is, if we were in the 19th century, a lot of the "nations" that you take for granted now, were also non-exsistent. They had their ideologists, but the national solidarity was not there. I mean, we have Italian or German members here, please intrude guys. Let them tell you how a Genovan and a Sicillian did not identify themselves as "Italian first" historically.
Not all members of the UK put British first either mind but there is still an identity. Even then what about nations like France or Denmark?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
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posted June 24, 2016 09:29 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 09:30, 24 Jun 2016.

If there is a country used to immigration it's Britain.

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted June 24, 2016 09:37 AM

Ebonheart said:
Sorry to break it to you, but if you compared the data you will find that the 2008 crash was not even close to a 1929 crash but since then, the borrowing and market overvalue has increased drastically. And everytime there has been a 8Y presidential election, the economy has gone down. It's the uncertainty.
The market is not overvalued by much really. There is simply too much freshly printed money that rich people have to put somewhere. As for uncertainty, well that is an inbuilt feature of the system. It is by design so. The multi billionaire class has a firm grip on the issues they care about and no amount of politicking will change that. The elections are just a circus freak show to entertain the common folk.

Quote:
It is good but it won't come without blood due to the high levels of debt tied to them.
That's the risk of investing in property. They have been milking the populace for too long with high rent so I don't have much sympathy for the property barons. As for the common folk who buy their own home...well they will suffer but that is what they voted for.

Quote:
Yeeeeeaaah!...or not.
You are not offering much of a counter argument.

Quote:
Using what money exactly? Borrowed money? I fear that will be hard in the future.

Western Europe is sitting on more money then they can spend. They just don't know on what. Same with US, Japan and China. China is at least spending money on infrastructure it doesn't need so that people still have jobs.
And even if they didn't have money they could begin printing some to devalue the currency. That is what both the US, UK, Japan, Russia, Switzerland and basically everyone has done. It's only that the EU has largely stayed out of the currency wars thanks to hardliners in Germany.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 24, 2016 09:46 AM

Quote:
Even then what about nations like France or Denmark?

Don't know much about Denmark but France would have Norman kings, who would call themselves Norman, not Frank and if we go back enough in time we can pick out many examples. My point wasn't to say "there is no French" though. If you think EU is problematic because there is a strong sense of nationality in its member states, I'd say that's not it. A LOT of its hardcore members are very familiar with identities that are not nationalist. It's not why Europeans react to a union.
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 24, 2016 09:49 AM
Edited by Ebonheart at 09:52, 24 Jun 2016.

fuChris said:
The market is not overvalued by much really. There is simply too much freshly printed money that rich people have to put somewhere.
If 68% is not much then I guess I missed a good deal of teaching in the school.
fuChris said:
That's the risk of investing in property. They have been milking the populace for too long with high rent so I don't have much sympathy for the property barons. As for the common folk who buy their own home...well they will suffer but that is what they voted for.
The barons as you call them, only adapt to the present time. It's the banks and people in charge of the politics which are responsible for this. However, one can fork over a argument that in the very end the people are responsible for the pain since they voted for it, I agree with you there.
fuChris said:
You are not offering much of a counter argument.
Sorry I have just been so brazed by the news. A few arguments would be 1. The immigration, 2. The high debts, 3. High entrance fees for certain countries, 4. The potential need to bail others out, 5. The lack of democracy as a whole involved.
fuChris said:
Western Europe is sitting on more debt then they can handle. They just don't know how to fix it. Same with US, Japan and China. China is at least spending money on infrastructure it doesn't need so that people still have jobs, for now.

Fixed that line for you.
fuChris said:
And even if they didn't have money they could begin printing some to devalue the currency.

We have conjured up so much air-money that if you were to print enough money to cover it, you would end up like Germany after WW1. But hey, we will see what happens.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 24, 2016 09:56 AM

JollyJoker said:
If there is a country used to immigration it's Britain.


As everyone is used to receive guests at home. But when someone you don't know decides who comes in your house, when and how many, then I guess you feel no longer used or happy about it. Result: Brexit.

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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted June 24, 2016 10:04 AM

artu said:
Don't know much about Denmark but France would have Norman kings, who would call themselves Norman, not Frank and if we go back enough in time we can pick out many examples. My point wasn't to say "there is no French" though. If you think EU is problematic because there is a strong sense of nationality in its member states, I'd say that's not it. A LOT of its hardcore members are very familiar with identities that are not nationalist. It's not why Europeans react to a union.
I suppose your right, it is just the argument I here the most of. I imagine however that it is, as Salamander said, a result of the refuge issue.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted June 24, 2016 10:09 AM

welp, there won't be any lols out of me today

congrats there my British brethren, way to **** the bed good and proper, I'm guessing another independence day up here on our side won't be far off now
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted June 24, 2016 10:11 AM

artu said:

What I get from this comment is, you think the EU has no long-term solidarity but a short-term necessity between the members to stick to each other for a little while?
The EU frankly has no solidarity at all, not any different from relatively friendly relationships between states which try to benefit from cooperation. Just see what happened when the first really tough tests for the unity came about. No common policy what to do with Russia could be agreed, even less so what to do with that wannabe member whelp Ukraine (which is easily the most unfit for membership country in the history, even Erdogan's Turkey is better in many regards), the refugee crisis quickly turned into "everyone save his own ass" - generously aided by the daft decisions of Merkel's government and the fiscal time bombs in quite a few members keep ticking with no real plan how to stop the process and not alienate the members at the same time. Take away the hollow rhetoric of the politicians and not much remains - one major economic crisis, significant shift of the geopolitical landscape and all the flaws in the design (and even more of the maintenance) of the structure reveal themselves at once. UK was/is bound to leave at some point - they want only the good stuff from the cooperation and are too hell bent on their own "identity" to remain in an organization which requires transcending beyond the traditional mindset of the nation states and the focus on your own interest so even if the EU's decision makers haven't done so many clumsy, short-sighted and sometimes downright ignorant mistakes, the British would have left. They are not a core member though so this vote should not really be overestimated - if the  EU officials finally dig that there are huge problems with their implementation of the Union's concept that could ultimately destroy everything, the EU can be salvaged for some time and maybe even transform into something functional not only during times of economic bliss.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 24, 2016 10:27 AM

Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
If there is a country used to immigration it's Britain.


As everyone is used to receive guests at home. But when someone you don't know decides who comes in your house, when and how many, then I guess you feel no longer used or happy about it. Result: Brexit.
Wrong picture, because immigrants are no guests. They don't leave. The point is still the same.
I mean. look, Germany has the same INTERNAL problem. We are federational as well, and not only is there an immigrant quota for each state of Germany, there is also the not so small question of who's PAYING the costs: the states want the feds to pay half, the feds say, NO WAY.
Now, I don't think, the German state of Bavaria will declare it's Bavrexit from the German federation because of that.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted June 24, 2016 10:35 AM

Immigrants are always guests, nobody says "let me in forever" because that simply doesn't work legally. With time, they may choose to remain, but at start an overwhelming percentage is supposed to stay for a limited period, are subject to periodical controls and must own the right papers and follow a strict administrative pattern . As for refugees, except that 100% of refugees are supposed to go back, once the danger is gone.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 24, 2016 10:47 AM

Immigrants are not guests, Sal. Tourists are guests. Immigrants are people who are starting a new LIFE, in a new country. You can say they should respect that country's customs, laws.. Of course they should. That does not make them guests, that makes them newcomers.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 24, 2016 10:47 AM

You are of course wrong:

Immigration

Quote:
Immigration is the international movement of people into a destination country of which they are not natives or where they do not possess citizenship in order to settle or reside there, especially as permanent residents or naturalized citizens, or to take-up employment as a migrant worker or temporarily as a foreign worker.

What you mean are Refugees, and indeed the current problem isn't one of immigrants, but one of refugees which are indeed "guests".

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted June 24, 2016 10:51 AM

Ebonheart said:
If 68% is not much then I guess I missed a good deal of teaching in the school.
And where does that number come from? And more importantly why would it matter? High finance is meant to be liquid so the worst case scenario is that money flows from US stocks to stocks from other countries. Only the retirement investment fonds will suffer from an inevitable(?at this point I'm not sure?) crash.

Quote:
The barons as you call them, only adapt to the present time. It's the banks and people in charge of the politics which are responsible for this.
The government and the banks inevitably printed money to handle the fallout of the 2008 crash. Printing money is a very blunt tool to fix a very precise problem. But there is no better time to be rich then in a recession. Rich people have been gobbling up properties and businesses at bargain prices. Large companies buy up competition without much thought only to gain more market share. The only "problem" house barons might face is that their return on investment is not gonna be so big if people have less money to spend on rent.

Quote:
Sorry I have just been so brazed by the news. A few arguments would be 1. The immigration, 2. The high debts, 3. High entrance fees for certain countries, 4. The potential need to bail others out, 5. The lack of democracy as a whole involved.
1. Immigration is not gonna change. Look at Norway and see how not being part of the EU has helped them defy EU laws and open migration policy. At best it will lead to a renegotiation of benefits. 2. We have been coping with high debts since before WW1 so I don't expect anything on that front to change. 3.If you mean the price for entering the EU then that is a good thing. It just shows that the EU isn't willing to let just anyone in without painful structural reforms. In fact I believe EU expansion has become way too fast and has resulted in war in the Ukraine. 4.That is how the US works actually and it seems to work there pretty well. The Greek crisis wouldn't have happened here if we if it had been handled like Detroits' bankruptcy has been handled in the US. 5. The lack of democracy involved in choosing EU representatives and their unaccountability is indeed troubling but such a problem could have been solved by use of political pressure from a major state like Britain if the had used their influence to tackle such a matter. There has simply been no political will to change this across the EU and that includes Britain as well.

Quote:
Fixed that line for you.
You'd be surprised how much money is currently being sat on. Why do you think interest rates are so low and even start to go into negative territory? The Swiss had this problem and no amount of foreign currency reserves were enough to keep the frank in a territory where it benefits its' economy.

Quote:
We have conjured up so much air-money that if you were to print enough money to cover it, you would end up like Germany after WW1. But hey, we will see what happens.
Money has no value to speak of. I thought that is common knowledge by now. Any value we assign to it is merely imaginary and its' significance relies only on its' comparison to other countries currency. People seem to forget that before the introduction of the euro the constant currency wars between the nations of Europe placed a heavy burden on everyones' economy.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 24, 2016 10:53 AM

And Brexit is a fact: 51.9 % against EU.

However, the scottish and Northern Irish population voted with big majority for staying in the EU, which means the separatists have new ammunition now and will fire with all guns.

I wouldn't have thought the Brits would fall for that crap.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 24, 2016 11:02 AM

artu said:
Immigrants are not guests, Sal. Tourists are guests. Immigrants are people who are starting a new LIFE, in a new country. You can say they should respect that country's customs, laws.. Of course they should. That does not make them guests, that makes them newcomers.


How many times you immigrated, artu? JJ? I did twice.

Let's say you want a new life in US, or France. How you do it? What visa you ask? Do you have a relative permanent resident in that country, ready to sponsor you? If you don't, you can't. So please.

So the point is that 99% of "immigrants" arrive as tourists. Then half remain as illegals, as the laws aren't applied. And this is is why people over all EU ask for borders control. We can continue this mental contortion to avoid the core of subject, but frankly is not worth the time.
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Jabanoss
Jabanoss


Promising
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Property of Nightterror™
posted June 24, 2016 11:05 AM

Hopefully this will lead to both Scotland and Northern Ireland to eventually leave the UK.

It's also interesting that apparently a big majority of the younger voters wanted to stay in the EU.
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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


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President of MM Wiki
posted June 24, 2016 11:06 AM

What's with EU comments how EU's economy will fall down when UK votes to leave?

Also, it's very annoying to hear how one person, due to this "Brexit", claims how Britain celebrates "Independance day". That's just cow dung.
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