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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: UK's EU referendum
Thread: UK's EU referendum This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 25, 2016 08:56 PM

@ Ebonheart

The universal declaration of human rights was adopted by the UN in PARIS.
Read article 2. "Racist" is fitting even when it's ethical racism.

Go ask someone in the US whether the immigrants threw away their own "culture" and adopted the culture of the new country.
Also, the UK, France and the Netherlands have to live with their colonial history; it's their heritage.
The guy following Cameron will have a hard time because once they exit the EU there will be no ready culprit anymore for the things BRITAIN screwed up (and France as well).

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 25, 2016 09:00 PM

JollyJoker said:
@ Salamndre
It's STILL racist bullcrap - just because you don't like that tag doesn't mean you don't deserve it.


I was replying to Kayna who told is about skin color, that is not about skin, but different cultures. If you call this answer, in this context, "racist", then  arguing with a brain dead is not a thing I gonna do.

JollyJoker said:

Lastly, you are not born in France, but Romania, so you ARE an immigrant yourself. It's the summit of hypocrisy as an immigrant to be against immigration;


I never said am against immigrations as concept, as I always underlined I am an immigrant myself. What I said is that I am against forced quotas build up at Bruxelles and that I am against MORE and ENDLESS immigration from Islam areas, seeing the chaos EU is already drowning in because of it.  

And let me tell you a last thing, because I see you skip my arguments and instead prefer going on a stupid and brainless personal rant, as usual, which I will not follow:

Europe is maybe not perfect but there is a fact: worldwide immigration is 90% uni-directional, toward Europe -the other 10% toward identic cultures. This proves that, while certainly not being perfect, it remains what is done best, concerning human rights, women rights, minorities rights, freedom, life quality and much more.

As I am  romanian -as you recall, I can't really be proud of what my elders did, as it is not my elders who built this Europe. But I have an immense respect for those whose elders contributes to its greatness, made its noble history, and here it is Europe today: the continent the world wide dream about. And they keep coming.

Thus I support Europeans rational worries about who comes in and profits from its advantages. Also I consider those who keep screaming about how EU is racist and how every culture is equal and how everything is worth everything, those who can't have a discussion without resorting the "you are a racist"a disgrace and a deny of all that made this unique world, the sacrifices and all the blood who had to flow to make this possible.

Immigrating is a gift given to me, I honor my hosts and respect their choice.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 25, 2016 09:03 PM

EnergyZ said:
It's not they have much of a choice. Either suffer back home because of war or suffer in Europe because of certain prejudice.

Besides, it's either this or let the racism/religionism/ethnic-ism get stronger, enough to start riots against refugees. Besides, isn't this similar to the time, when Germany was split into communistic and capitalistic parts, especially Berlin? A lot of people moved (in secrecy, that is). This could be a partial reason why Germany has pro-refugee politics.

They have a choice and as do the people in the country they flee to.
At the end of the day a country will think of what is best for itself, and it must.
The only thing this immigration has done is proven how incapable both the refugee countries and the new host countries are of actually solving the situation. The problems must be solved in the area the refugees come from and not the other way around.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted June 25, 2016 09:12 PM
Edited by EnergyZ at 21:35, 25 Jun 2016.

Ebonheart said:

The only thing this immigration has done is proven how incapable both the refugee countries and the new host countries are of actually solving the situation. The problems must be solved in the area the refugees come from and not the other way around.


But how will you even fix such a problem? Even if the war is stopped, this still won't prevent any of them from coming to Europe, since those countries are not exactly rich. And I doubt any country would willingly part any money to those countries to fix this problem.
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 25, 2016 09:19 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 21:28, 25 Jun 2016.

JollyJoker said:
@ Ebonheart
The universal declaration of human rights was adopted by the UN in PARIS.
Read article 2. "Racist" is fitting even when it's ethical racism.

@Jollyjoker
I wonder if you have even read this yourself. Allow me...
Article one states, and I quote,: "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
Culture X coming to Y country has a religion bent on destroying those not belonging to culture X, in other words people of country Y. It is a violation right there.
As for Article 2, once again you bend the rules to what you see as accepted, but let's look at the description of racism from when this was actually written "Racism: Political view which stresses the importance of the race for the society." Ethnicity is not a race, it is a product of the culture which has claimed a region. There is no connection to race here.
JollyJoker said:
Go ask someone in the US whether the immigrants threw away their own "culture" and adopted the culture of the new country.
Yes and this is the problem. The culture clashes here were not solved peacefully before and has not been solved fully as of yet.
JollyJoker said:
Also, the UK, France and the Netherlands have to live with their colonial history; it's their heritage.

If we are to go by that logic, am I to repay France and UK minding how my viking ancestors pillaged and raped people, murdered in the most barbaric ways and the siege of Paris in 845?

As for the last part, I worry more for the countries inside the EU rather than UK. Alas that is my opinion.

Edit: @EnergyZ
The fix must come from the country itself in the very end. Regardless of how much support and supplies that is being sent, it won't matter if the roots aren't drawn out, which tends to be the culture. If a existing culture is the cause of the wars then it needs to change. If there is a dictator then the question that must be asked is "why is said dictator there?". For example, in some countries the dictators (as disgusting and cruel as they are) seem to be needed to keep said culture under control.
If the country and the people within won't change, there is not much you can do but to let the slaughter go on until they wish to change. We had to deal with our megalomaniac kings and introduced democracy, which so far despite certain flaws have been a working concept for us. But you can't force those values onto another region and expect them to embrace and love it. They will most likely see it as something that is a threat to their own culture.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 25, 2016 10:02 PM

@ Salamandre
Yoo are micing up a couple of things.

1) Immigrants versus REFUGEES. The EU quotas are about REFUGEES, not immigrants. Refugees are GUESTS that only stay until the situation in their home country changes. The EU does nothing with regard to national immigration rights.
So what you say with regard to immigration is bullcrap.

2) France - the country you live in - is an ex-colonial power. This should give you an overview. Starting with the Decolonization part, it gets interesting.

Which is to say, the French sitruation has been different from the beginning - it's the result of the Franch Imperialism.
Meaning, France has had a problem BEFORE the recent refugee "crisis".

@ Ebonheart

I fail to see any point in your last post, sorry.


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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 25, 2016 10:16 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 22:17, 25 Jun 2016.

JollyJoker said:

Immigrants versus REFUGEES. The EU quotas are about REFUGEES, not immigrants. Refugees are GUESTS.

Correct, but sigh, they are a drain on the economy and the last bit of sense there is left in our beloved political leaders. It's also problematic to let people who have nothing, want nothing and does not want to get involved with a situation they are not responsible for pay with the expense of their own livelihoods.
JollyJoker said:
@ Ebonheart
I fail to see any point in your last post, sorry.

Cry, I put a lot of effort into it,but it's okay.
Pardon me for not writing a long reply but it's so hot here right now that I am practically sweating into a wet pool of flesh.

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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted June 25, 2016 10:32 PM

JollyJoker said:


Britain chose to colonize half the workd - France following close behind - and the result is that all kinds of people OF THEIR FORMER COLONIES have chosen to come into the land of their erstwhile master races.


Yeah, they did. And you know what? When these ethnics come over, all they do is vote for instant gratification instead of long term decisions. And when the British went around the world to "colonize" places, all they did was kill people and then stamp their insigna on a bunch of documents and buildings.

No matter which angle you look at, people not native to the land does more snow.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 25, 2016 10:36 PM

JollyJoker said:

2) France - the country you live in - is an ex-colonial power.


And?

EVERY country is, was, or had colonial ambitions, is just that some made at it, others lost at it. It amazes me people still continue to criticize or ignore what is and always was at the core of all civilizations history and development, the conquest and the seek for additional power.

After Mohammed's death, the new Muslim caliph, Abu Bakr, launched Islam into almost 1500 years of continual imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others through invasion and war, a role Islam continues to this very day. Invasion which was hardly stopped, at how many lives price, at the famous Poitiers battle. If we had lost, we would speak Arabic now and use trash bags to cover our women faces.

We would be colonized.

Should we accept anyone and any culture clash because they didn't beat us and lost the war? I don't understand this constant victimization of the one who made it. Is a cruel game, you play, you win or lose.


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 25, 2016 11:00 PM

The part about bags and women's faces would be more believable if you hadn't yourself outed as a chauvinist.

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Cave Moose
posted June 25, 2016 11:06 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 02:24, 26 Jun 2016.

Islamic state powers had colonial rule within conquered mainland Europe up into the 20th century, where it was pried from their fingers against their volition. The majority of Europe - Spain and everybody west of Vienna - has experienced being the conquered itself, and only very shortly before its own love affair with imperialism. In the case of the Eastern bloc, they've known nothing other than being conquered up until very recently. I don't see what history has to do with anything. It doesn't matter what people did or didn't do. Separatists movements are either justified or they aren't, and that has everything to do with what policy they want and nothing to do with satisfying an abstract notion of poetic justice. If it did, Islamic powers are - at the bare minimum - just as guilty as France, but none of that matters anyway. People that bring up the past are people that want an excuse to pick a fight, and they don't have any other pretexts available, so they grab onto an emotional pretext. It's an act of desperation that can also prove quite effective.

The UK hasn't experienced conquest, and that boils down to logistics. They're an island nation in the northwest corner of Europe with an entire host of countries to serve as cannon fodder against Ottomans or Napoleon or Nazis or anybody else. They didn't even help the southern & central powers against the Ottoman for most of history, and that was once again a time where a United Europe was desperately needed. Over a million mainland Europeans died keeping them safe, and hence was produced the opportunity for the British Crown to emerge as the world's superpower while other countries licked their wounds from sustained warfare. The scenario repeats itself with the States in the 20th century. The prize goes to the one sitting in the best location, not to the one that does the most dying. In the case of global threats, you have a phenomena that is completely divorced from capitalism: a nation is - indirectly - paid something immensely valuable - even to the point of being an absolute necessity - and it is done in exchange for nothing. Armies fight and die, and if they're not your army, you don't have to pay a penny or mourn over a single body. That's what the UK enjoyed for a period of centuries. The dividends are unmatchable.

I don't invent the world. I just explain it. Nonetheless, if that kind of chaotic pecking frenzy is unappealing to you, then perhaps you should be more receptive towards a globalized future and less concerned with the bumps along the way, because the separatists- who ARE fueled by ethnic racism - are moving 180 degrees in the opposite direction towards a world of neotribalism. The EU is a flawed and fallible organization, but it's also provided a lot of health to Europe, and with the UK out of it, they are no longer a player in orchestrating its continued improvement and evolution. That will go to its core members once again, who will also reap the rewards.




So back to the issue of policy: what separatists want is racial profiling on a state-wide level. They want the state to get involved in protecting a "cultural heritage" which is nonsense from the get-go because there is no such thing. This and that the economic outlook of Europe will be weaker as the regional powers might start to break apart. Moody's has already made it clear that any money saved for the UK by not having to send money to the EU will be negated and then some by their lower economic growth.


^.^

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 26, 2016 02:22 AM
Edited by artu at 02:26, 26 Jun 2016.

bb said:
They're an island nation in the northwest corner of Europe with an entire host of countries to serve as cannon fodder against Ottomans or Napoleon or Nazis or anybody else. They didn't even help the southern & central powers against the Ottoman for most of history, and that was once again a time where a United Europe was desperately needed.

Well, that's quite anachronical because whether it was needed or not (for what?), a united Europe was not even a notion then, UK and the Ottoman Empire were mostly allies throughout history because they had common enemies, they both didn't want other continent European powers to advance too much which were rivals of both of them. Why would UK look at the situation as "Us Europeans versus Ottomans" when its history is full of wars with France? Also keep in mind, the civilizational gap between Western Europe and rest of the world is mostly something post-industrial. Ottomans were not the Orcs, as a Roman model empire, they were more advanced and egalitarian than a lot of the central European powers back in their time. Their law was based on cultural pluralism, they didn't assimilate (notice how all ex colonial France countries speak French while Ottomans had the same places for a much longer time.)

To the British, the only major difference of the Ottomans from other European forces would be religion (and Islam's impact on women's role in a society but the Christian world wasn't exactly Feministan back in those times either) and when it comes to religion, well, Europe or Christianity itself was far from a unification anyway, the Orthodox, the Protestant, the Catholic all hated and slaughtered each other and had the worst kinds of civil war which is usually more bloody than a completely alien force invading.    
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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Cave Moose
posted June 26, 2016 02:25 AM
Edited by blizzardboy at 02:33, 26 Jun 2016.

A United Europe wasn't conceived in terms of a full-on union, but it was already conceived on a situational level for matters of foreign policy. There had already been (for the most part) a United Europe in the 11th century to repel eastern invasion, so it certainly could have been repeated in the 16th when Rome and Berlin were under threat.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 26, 2016 02:28 AM

Well, in the 11th Century, there is rather the notion of a Christian unity under Vatican but the 16th century is the opposite of that.
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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Cave Moose
posted June 26, 2016 02:30 AM
Edited by blizzardboy at 02:43, 26 Jun 2016.

They were different landscapes. Much of the reason why Europe couldn't be united in the 16th century was related to the religious and political turmoil at the time. Queen Elizabeth was very deliberate in allowing the southern powers around Italy to contend with the invading fleets alone while she consolidated power. She put the Western world in grave jeopardy for personal political gain.

If Europe could have been united, it probably would have accelerated its progress by a century or more. Then again, maybe that's scary in retrospect


Anyway, we've strayed from the topic, and I don't want to sound like I'm bashing England just because they happened to be parasites for 300 years. I'm very fond of them and their music industry.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 26, 2016 04:03 AM

Kayna said:
Heck, when everybody is white, you don't even know who's racist, because everybody is white!

The subtlety of this logic is so impressive, it inspired me to produce similar solutions to other well-known issues of the world we live in, here's a few:

- All women should be forced to stay as houswives, this will prevent any sexist behavior in any work place.

- Exterminating all the Jews and nuking Israel off the map will end this endless bickering about anti-semitism and stop the conspiracy theories about how they rule the world behind the scenes, once and for all.

- We should also wipe out every non-religious person on Earth and everybody should follow the verses in their Holy books word by word. Actually, picking only one religion and cleansing out the others is also a very neat idea, plurality in this will only create more confusion. I suggest picking Islam, since its language is very direct about how we should live our lives.

- I also suggest a single state party for each state to handle internal affairs, more than one political ideology and all that money spent on the election process, it's just too much of a headache. Most politicians only care about their own career anyway, so let's take all the meaningless competition out of the way and let the one with true leadership rule.
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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted June 26, 2016 04:55 AM

I'd rather simplify things by having one government with me as it's ruler. Better than buying a house in the middle of nowhere stacked with canned food.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 26, 2016 07:54 AM

Kayna said:
I'd rather simplify things by having one government with me as it's ruler. Better than buying a house in the middle of nowhere stacked with canned food.

I would shudder at that thought. No, direct democracy is the way to go for me.

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TD
TD


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 26, 2016 09:55 AM

I absolutely hope they  leave EU. They always kept their own currency and had other countries pitch in to pay for their membership fees. It will also set precedence that countries can leave EU so in case more countries join that falsify their statistics(like Greece did), EU should have option to kick them out.

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted June 26, 2016 09:59 AM

The day after Brexit, UK citizens seem to have no idea what they voted for and what to do next. The contry is about to split and probably the chaos will last long.

I hope that eventually they cancel Brexit and everything will stay as it was. A bit like a teenager running away from home only to discover he has nowhere to go
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