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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: What would you want to see from a "New" homm3?
Thread: What would you want to see from a "New" homm3? This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2016 03:22 PM

I could play the game well enough to win the 3DO Heroes community board tourney, and I still have the Titan and Dendroid figures to prove it.

Of course, people who are so convinced elitist as you don't seem to realize that good game design doesn't need the designers to be good players: in that tourney I also played against Christian Vanover, certainly NOT a very competetive player.
Maybe the name "Gwhenwyfar" rings a bell - that's the female designer of the Lord of Wars map and a couple of other things. She's German, and we were at one time exhanging ideas about the game and map-making and whatnot. I thought I knew a bit about the game - but she handed me my ass on a platter when we played a friendly mp match. I'm also not the guy who's first to find solutions to puzzles. Beat a castle fuull of Hydras with a shooter. You just need Baslistics and a creature to block the draw bridge with. Shouldn't be possible, but IS possible.
You could of course debate about that, but that's not the point.

What gives you the idea that just because you are a "competetive" player you'd know anything about how to design a good game? Or that you HAVE to be one to design a good game - which game designers do you know who are also competition players? Hm?


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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted July 31, 2016 03:40 PM

I'm still wondering why this thread has 19 real posts and 80 offtopic snowtalk.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 31, 2016 04:12 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 16:18, 31 Jul 2016.

JollyJoker said:

Of course, people who are so convinced elitist as you don't seem to realize that good game design doesn't need the designers to be good players


And did I say that?

Of course you don't have to be good player to understand how a game is/should be designed, but you have to try competitive player in order to understand how it works when you have  to pull only the best decisions and exploit all details from game, not only those from a superficial manual read. When you play H2 competitive and you realize, that no matter what you do, the other player ALWAYS crushes you when he picks Sorceress and you pick Castle, when you realize that you have no physical or theoretical counters to the fact that he can hit and run you to death because he will always  act first, when you realize that in that game, everything is about speed  and even the brightest intelligence can't do anything against, then you understand why the game is broken, conclusion which is much less obvious when playing vs computer, which does not know how to handle such advantages.

Then if you play H3 at same level, you understand how much they fixed the broken things. Take for example the speed/hit and run problem: now you have artifacts boosting it, now you have shackles, now you have resistances both hero and creature based, now you have terrains influencing the speed, now you have heroes influencing the speed, artifacts prohibiting magic, so many new and fresh tools which were clearly designed to fix a game break flaw. And that can be applied to every other game play aspect: magic, rehiring heroes etc. So how can someone claim H2 is still better in game play is unconceivable to me. It can be more fun, more lovely, but certainly not better game.

So no, you don't have to be good player, nor am I an elitist. But you have to play it a lot online (traduce = vs equal intelligence) to understand what the game truly lacks and where it shines.  


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2016 05:26 PM

What I said is that H2 is the better game "in terms of FUNDAMENTAL GAMEPLAY". The economy is more competetive, the difference between town and village is more significant, the towns have individual building trees, you have more buildable creature levels than army slots.

What I also said is that H3 is obviously the better package, since the content plus the better battlefield experience makes more than up for it - the point was, that not all changes from H2 to H3 were "great", when you look into detail, but obviously that wasn't necessary either.

While H2 is very unbalanced on the pvp level, H3 is unbalanced as well, and we don't need to discuss the hows and whys.

However, that's not the point of this thread. If you look at what H3 was at release and what it has become in the last 17 years through the work of dedicated modders, THAT is all that is needed when it comes to "a game similar to H3". That game has been so much expanded and developed that doing it again is simply a lost cause - no professional game developer can compete in terms of content, and a fan-projekt would take DECADES, when you consider the work that has been done and is still done.

That is the point.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 31, 2016 05:40 PM

I don't realistically hope for it but I do think that a new game that has the H3 basics, that is, 2D map, similar factions and gamplay simplicity (and optimization of course but 2D map will automatically solve most of the slowness anyway) but also the advantage of modern graphics, better AI and a potential content of 10-15 GB size will be a commercial success. Skill system and economy can improve, new features that wont ruin the basics are welcome... Maybe in 2019, you can make it a 20th year edition or something... It will sell and the improvement, if done right, will be drastically huge compared to fan made stuff.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2016 07:32 PM

What improvement? That the clone of an old game will be incompatible with all thw ork done for it?

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 31, 2016 07:46 PM

It doesn't have to be a clone is what I meant, but sticking to the successful foundations is not necessarily repeating them completely.
Your "Frankenstein's monster" analogy stands as a metaphor to point out the issues of eclecticism, but to continue the analogy, you can successfully transplant hearts, livers, kidneys... One thing you can't transplant is the brain and the game should of course have it's own brain (coherency) about its own improvements. Those improvements just don't have to be necessarily radical, though.
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they can change, but these changes are usually more nuanced compared to the madness of youth. blizzardboy

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2016 08:03 PM

I was talking about something different, and that is a new angle.

A new angle would, for example, be a way to have more than one hero in a stack - no matter HOW (which doesn't mean they would have to be on the battlefield). (This is just a theoretical example. mind you.)

A new angle would be, for example, a complete separation of "towns" and "heroes" (so that you could play each town with each hero and have a significantly different enough game experience).

WoG says that H3 could be improved a lot - but WoG also did that already.

What the brand needs is a new ground-breaking design - within the frame of what defines the series.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 31, 2016 08:10 PM

Quote:
WoG says that H3 could be improved a lot - but WoG also did that already.

WoG and other mods are limited by the hardcore mechanics of the vanilla game though and there is a limit to what you can modify.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 31, 2016 08:20 PM

JollyJoker said:
What the brand needs is a new ground-breaking design - within the frame of what defines the series.


And that is ONE way to look at it, there is others you know, like, for example, take as foundation what has been critically acclaimed.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2016 08:51 PM

Reads like an Ubisoft press release.

Heroes 2 has been the only game winning an award, I think, CGW, strategy game of the year. Heroes 3 has been one way to build on it, and now you have lots of additional content for it.

You don't want to redo that.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted July 31, 2016 09:31 PM

JollyJoker said:

You don't want to redo that.


Don't want to redo what? Something that works?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2016 10:37 PM

Something that works, works. You don't need to redo that, when you don't have a new angle. Otherwise it's just a milking of the cash-cow.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 31, 2016 10:58 PM

But the content can grow enormously with today's posibbilites. Original Heroes 3 is like 700 mb or something. Imagine hundreds of various neutral monsters, XXX large maps, many more units with unique spells, countless artifacts, improved skill system with unique sub-skills and spells plus abilities, different defense systems for different towns, more variety in war machines, HD graphics, many more buildings with protective garrisons...  
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they can change, but these changes are usually more nuanced compared to the madness of youth. blizzardboy

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 31, 2016 11:23 PM

In reality, content of a vanilla game is quite limited. As opposed to that there is H3 Wog and a couple of mods expanding the game enormously.

I'm not even sure if what you write was a good thing if it was a realistic option.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 31, 2016 11:45 PM

JJ, I always play WoG (Era), There is significant new content but not enormous, with various mods you can replace things one at a time but the new content doesnt stack.  

And yes, it would be a wonderful thing, if you can manage to do it with keeping the gameplay balanced.
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they can change, but these changes are usually more nuanced compared to the madness of youth. blizzardboy

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 31, 2016 11:47 PM

artu said:
But the content can grow enormously with today's posibbilites. Original Heroes 3 is like 700 mb or something. Imagine hundreds of various neutral monsters, XXX large maps, many more units with unique spells, countless artifacts, improved skill system with unique sub-skills and spells plus abilities, different defense systems for different towns, more variety in war machines, HD graphics, many more buildings with protective garrisons...  


Of course, taking H3 as base then expanding, fixing the endless bugs, port erm language in a stable state would be a blast, it suffices to read player/buyers comments on both GoG and Steam to see such game will explode the markets. H3 has immortal aura and people feel when a game is delivering.

But you are explaining that to a person which hates H3 and considers it at 3rd or even 4th place in the series. There is nothing do to when such opinions are in stone.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 01, 2016 12:55 AM

Salamandre said:
And there is no advantage H5 can claim, is just an awful Heroes game. People who didn't intensively played H2 nor H3 will surely find in it good things.


When I read this I realized that there's no real point in debating with someone who utters such dismissive nonsense. But I applaud JJ's valiant effort. Pearls before swine.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 01, 2016 02:03 AM

Sweetie, I have not the slightest problem with you liking H5, is your taste after all and nobody is perfect. But, here, some maths for you, so you can also understand my point without going into calling names. Also notice that both H5 seasons length is 3 years each, not one as the previous.

Case closed, for me at least.
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Era II mods and utilities

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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted August 01, 2016 02:06 AM

Salamandre said:
Sweetie, I have not the slightest problem with you liking H5, is your taste after all and nobody is perfect. But, here, some maths for you, so you can also understand my point without going into calling names. Case closed, for me at least.
To think that there were 2024 players, playing 16 104 games in a couple of months back in the H3/H4 days...

What Ubi did is truly reminiscent of a genocide...

How many people log into this forum each day now... 20?
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Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me

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