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| Thread: I believe it's time to divorce races from towns |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted August 03, 2016 09:03 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 09:23, 03 Aug 2016.
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This is more a divorce of theme from town rather than race from town. For instance, Academy and Haven are both humans in Ashan.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 09:21 AM |
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Stevie said:
Please do bother, because you're kinda wrong here. Maurice is right in saying that living / undead is not a race but a biological status. And your example is flawed, this is the proper translation:
livining human priest -> undead human priest
living elven priest -> undead elven priest
Except what's the different between the undead priests? different heights? Different spells?
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 09:33 AM |
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Elvin said:
The idea is not without merit but I'd be more interested in 2 subfactions for each race.
I already explained why i find it even more unlikely
Gryphs said:
This is more a divorce of theme from town rather than race from town. For instance, Academy and Haven are both humans in Ashan.
Which is why i renamed "race" to "nation". However what i meant was divorcing towns types from their current inhabitants (ie "Haven" and "Human and co town" stop being synonyms)
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 09:44 AM |
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IMO you need to work on being more imaginative with humans.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted August 03, 2016 09:48 AM |
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I more see haven as the holy town rather than the human one nowadays. 
Still, it is an interesting idea, although, I cannot help but think that adding alternate units would not work better.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 09:59 AM |
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Guys, the game is called HEROES of Might and Magic, not CREATURES, RACES, TOWNS or NATIONS of Might and Magic, which inevitably means, all these things must include Heroes in some way - most significantly with the Necromancy skill, which led to ALL Heroes having a "special" skill.
Now, H5, in which that was introduced, limited this to creatures of a certain faction, and added buildings in town for functionality, the undead transformer (the erstwhile skeleton transformer) being the most radical here, giving an option to transform all creatures into "fitting" creatures.
So the easiest way to go is simply to change the "faction" skill to a "special" skill that isn't faction-specific, and if someone is at it, give heroes more "exclusive" abilities as well, to make them really individual and special - in other words:
Separate HEROES from factions.
The strong association doesn't make much sense anyway.
You could also associate a hero with a creature; for example, there could be a variable dwelling in each town that would be determined by starting hero.
The reason for the perceived uniformity is, simply, that faction skills in combination with color-coding have been "branding" the factions with a certain theme, no matter what creatures are actually there. H6 had, in my opinion, quite a satisfactory creature line-up, but was doomed to be the stealth faction, no matter what.
In H7 I had the most fun, if you can speak of fun, playing a faction with a non-faction hero.
Another option would be - maybe in combination - to allow subtle alternative upgrades for each hero type.
In any case, ripping AoW 3 off, must necessarily happen via the Heroes in some way, but in that regard H7 has reached a solid rock bottom anyway.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 03, 2016 10:00 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 10:00, 03 Aug 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
A human Zombie is different from an Elfen Zombie how?
A Human Zombie could be slower but more sturdy, whereas an Elven Zombie could be faster but more nimble. The only limit is imagination in what the undead counterparts could be and their abilities.
JollyJoker said:
But in that case you have THREE defining stas, race, town and, err, hero
Now you're just mixing Genya's idea with my suggestion. I was going on a tangent here, because I agree that if you combine them, you're getting too close to AoW3.
Besides, I don't think you should decide on a per Hero basis, as you usually have a multitude running around. Rather, you should determine the type of ruler that you want to be from the start of the game and that choice will influence the creature selection for some of the creatures in your town line-up. Could just be 1 or maybe even as much as 4. Could even be that the base creature is the same, but the upgrade is different between the ruler types. Again, imagination is the only limit.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 10:13 AM |
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Again, Maurice, it's HEROES, not Factions of M&M, so you could simply chose starting town/faction, like, say, Stronghold, and then a hero, say, Rogue (and the Rogues would come as Elves, Humans, Dwarves and whatever, but that wouldn't change the fact that they were Rogues).
So you had these hero classes, and every hero class had their skill wheel with "common" stuff that all or most hero classes had, like, say, Archery (a Ranger class might have a second archery skill, though) and special skills (like Necromancy), that only that hero class could field.
For example, a Demonologist could - a la H4 - summon certain Demons, no matter the faction he was playing.
Also, you might associate each hero class with a certain NEUTRAL unit, that your picked hero would add to the dwelling roster of ALL your towns. If practical, and you'd have only a handful of hero classes, this might be a full skill, adding a core, an elite and a master creature with each skill level.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 03, 2016 10:53 AM |
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I simply fail to see how you can incorporate individual Hero traits into a global faction setup. If you dismiss your Hero(es), what happens to the creature roster of your towns? Or is it just from the main? If so, what happens if you change mains?
The way I've always seen Heroes games is that the Heroes are subject to the kingdom as a whole, rather than the top dog. You as the player are the top dog, in essence guiding your kingdom through the Heroes under your control. You employ Heroes in the field to carry forth the gospel of your side of the conflict. Heroes are your tools, your bread and butter, to further your kingdom or empire at the expense of others.
Yes, I know that in most campaigns, you control a main Hero whose trials and tribulations you follow, in essence they are representations of you on the map. All secondary Heroes follow that main Hero. In multiplayer maps, that main Hero is not really present on the map, as it's you, the player and you yourself appoint your main secondary Hero.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 03, 2016 10:58 AM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 17:30, 03 Aug 2016.
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Stevie said:
No, just no. All you have to do with creatures in Heroes is get them to be as unique as possible, mythologically accurate and thematically cohesive enough to be able to associate with one another within line-ups. Copying AoW3 leads to anything but that, it produces replicas divided by race. It also puts more emphasis on the concept of race which I believe to be misplaced in Heroes games, especially in the Ubi era ones.
+1
Couldn't have said it better.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 11:07 AM |
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Maurice said:
I simply fail to see how you can incorporate individual Hero traits into a global faction setup. If you dismiss your Hero(es), what happens to the creature roster of your towns? Or is it just from the main? If so, what happens if you change mains?
The way I've always seen Heroes games is that the Heroes are subject to the kingdom as a whole, rather than the top dog. You as the player are the top dog, in essence guiding your kingdom through the Heroes under your control. You employ Heroes in the field to carry forth the gospel of your side of the conflict. Heroes are your tools, your bread and butter, to further your kingdom or empire at the expense of others.
Yes, I know that in most campaigns, you control a main Hero whose trials and tribulations you follow, in essence they are representations of you on the map. All secondary Heroes follow that main Hero. In multiplayer maps, that main Hero is not really present on the map, as it's you, the player and you yourself appoint your main secondary Hero.
It's the same in AoW: you have more than one heroes (and develop them as well), but you pick the first one who is called the LEADER (everyone else is a hero).
EDIT: you cannot dismiss your starting hero - generally, you cannot dismiss the last hero of any class you had a tavern set up for.
Since it would be difficult to allow more than one hero class for a player, ALL your heroes would be of your picked Class then. If you picked, say, Stronghold and Rogue, you'd start with the Stronghold and a Rogue (random or picked), but in your Tavern would be only Rogues. You could make it so, that a different virgin town might allow to "set" the Tavern up; default would be Rogue for you - but you might pick, say, Wizard, allowing you to play Wizardish as well.
In the case of Necro, your town would simply field the undead versions of them (spiced up with the neutral Necro creatures, say Skeleton, Ghost and Vampire), with Necromancy still collecting Skeletons.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 02:12 PM |
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Maurice said:
A Human Zombie could be slower but more sturdy, whereas an Elven Zombie could be faster but more nimble. The only limit is imagination in what the undead counterparts could be and their abilities.
Doesn't quite work for Skeletons though does it? In fact, it would probably only work well for the zombie, as everything else relies primarily on other factors than foot-speed (Vampires don't have bodies, and Lichs focus more on magic).
Also, I find the argument to be rather pointless, because IMO discussions on the overarching theme of the Necropolis is far more interesting than discussion on the minutiae of the lineup.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 03, 2016 02:35 PM |
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MattII said:
Doesn't quite work for Skeletons though does it?
Sure does. Elven Core has the Hunters, so their skeletal forms would be a Skeleton with a bow. Haven could either have Skeletons with a crossbow (which operates differently than a typical longbow) or be melee with a shield and spear. Dungeon Skeletons could still wield two daggers, making them sneaky backstabbers. Like I wrote, imagination is the limit.
Quote:
Also, I find the argument to be rather pointless, because IMO discussions on the overarching theme of the Necropolis is far more interesting than discussion on the minutiae of the lineup.
It was just to make JJ understand a bit better on what I meant when I said that being alive or undead is a state and not a faction and what that would mean for the various Towns. The overarching workings of the undead side of things and their Necropoli is indeed more interesting.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 03:32 PM |
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What I actually wanted to demonstrate that in Heroes the HEROES are the key - and in both directions. On one hand you must always consider the effect a non-hero change or feature will have on the heroes and their role, and on the other you must always consider whether a sought-for effect cannot be accomplished via the heroes.
In THIS case we should consider the fact that until Heroes 4 the only reasons to go with heroes associated with the town you played with were a) availability (you start with one) and b) starting forces.
b) wasn't a factor in H4 either - instead you get your starting troops in town and you hire a troopless hero that you can hire out of SIX available Classes, all "allied" with your town orientation.
So you can immediately change the rules, by making starting troops a town inherent thing and let heroes come without troops OR with signature neutral troops (that will then become buildable in town as well).
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 05:00 PM |
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JollyJoker stop posting. Like really. My suggestion is about opening up spaces so we can have more creatures, not about making an absolute AoW3 ripoff like you want.
Heroes werent brought up in the op because their recruitment would remain the same. So your HEREOS R DA KEY hardon has no place here
Maurice also stop posting the necropolis thing. While as i stated, this is based in AoW3 system, the points arent to 1- make a total ripoff 2- to lose the Heroes necropolis identity
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 03, 2016 05:31 PM |
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Deleted and edited posts which were either spam or contained personal attacks
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 06:56 PM |
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MattII said:
IMO you need to work on being more imaginative with humans.
oh everything is supposed to be jusr examples so people got what i meant.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 03, 2016 07:15 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Deleted and edited posts which were either spam or contained personal attacks
You edited my post but is exactly the same as before?
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 03, 2016 07:28 PM |
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Galaad said:
kiryu133 said:
Deleted and edited posts which were either spam or contained personal attacks
You edited my post but is exactly the same as before?
I edited the quoted post
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 09:57 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
JollyJoker stop posting. Like really. My suggestion is about opening up spaces so we can have more creatures,
Well, no you don't. As Stevie (I think) said, it's about MONSTERS, not Goblin, Dwarven, Elven, Human, Naga, Demon Swordmen.
But keep cool, I think I had a nice idea, so thanks for opening the thread. 
So let's say "town" is a collection of monsters:
Let's say you put into all Dungeons
Black Deagon (Champ)
Hydra (Champ)
Minotaur (Elite)
Manticore (Elite)
Beholder (Core)
Troglodyte (Core)
This doesn't even use a Medusa (which I like with the Nagas).
That's six fine monsters. Now you add race:
Dark Elf: Assassin (Core), Fury/Stalker (Core), Witch (Elite), Lizard Rider (Elite)
We now have a a 10-unit Dark Elven Dungeon with 4 Cores, 4 Elites, 2 Champions, ALL buildable (of course; picking is completely useless, because that's a question of army slots and economy). Which actually looks pretty awesome.
Can we add Sylvan Elves?
Sure:
Hunters (Core), Dancers (Core), Druids (Elite), Pegasus Rider (Elite)
What about Sylvan Monsters? Or let's call the town Preserve:
Treant (Champion/Elite()
Green Dragon (Champion)
Phoenix (Champ)
Unicorn (Elite)
Deer/Doe (Elite)
Pixies (Core)
Centaurs are possible (H3) (Core)
Leprechaun/Dryad is possible (Core)
Satyr is possible (Core)
Again, no problem - now if we want a Dark Elven Preserve we add of course the same 4 Dark Elven units as above (Assassin, Fury, Witch and Lizard Rider). Again, a 10-unit Preserve.
So that should give us the following MONSTER towns:
Dungeon
Preserve
Necropolis (this would be an exception; see below)
Inferno
Naga (ignoring Ashan, they are all monsters; this is where I see H3 Fortress)
Stronghold (Goblin is a Monster)
Academy (the monsters are constructs and spirits)
NO monster towns are: Haven (that's basically a human town with regular human military plus a little support) and Fortress (same thing, just with Dwarves; all known non-Dwarves could serve in Academy as spirits).
Then there are races:
Dwarves
Sylvan Elves
Dark Elves
Orcs
X humans (X = convenient number):
Since Haven would be dropped (thank Asha), we'd have A COUPLE of human factions which MIGHT contain Griffins and Wolves, but no Unicorns, to make up for that and because we have a lot of warrior type units. Let's be modest and take TWO.
Necropolis would be an exception that a number (4) of undead units would be taken, that would be the same for all races, but with different stats ...
Example for Necro:
Monsters:
Ghosts
Vampires
Bone Dragons
Wraiths
Lamasus
Reaper/Dread Knight
Liches
Racial units:
Skeletons
Zombies
Ghouls
Mummies
The skeleton might differ drastically from race to race (may shoot, throw or melee depending on race, for example), but would still be called the same in all racial towns. So a Sylvan Elven Necropolis would indeed have shooter skeletons, there would be a human shooter and a human melee skeleton faction, Orcs would be melee, of coures.
The other 3 would differ in stats only, though (with humans possibly equal).
Lastly, of course noz every town would have to have the same amount of monsters nor the 2-2-2 districution, and the same is true for races and 2-2-0.
IF that was so we had 7x6 = 42 monster units and 6x4 = 24 , in all 66 units (plus upgrades) with 42 possible combinations.
I think, that would be something. 
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