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| Thread: The moral degradation of todays teens/young adults. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Salamandre
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posted October 29, 2016 05:07 PM |
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artu said:
You can cease to give them allowance, forbid them to go out in the evening for a month, take away their toys, computers, etc. There are many ways to punish a child without touching him.
Yeah sure
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 29, 2016 05:12 PM |
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frostysh said:
The beating of the kids making the life in this countries more better - no it is not.
Yeah, I was advocating that, you win.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted October 29, 2016 05:16 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 17:17, 29 Oct 2016.
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Salamandre said:
Yeah, I was advocating that, you win.
Hmm?
I just have pointed a common desires in the rich countries by it's peoples, the desire of the "strong arm" is one of them. The world picture of the "weeny modern kids compare to their brave ancestors" - it is only the one of the many factors, that takes it's root in the "desire of the strong arm" . <imo>
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted October 29, 2016 05:31 PM |
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Salamandre said:
artu said:
You can cease to give them allowance, forbid them to go out in the evening for a month, take away their toys, computers, etc. There are many ways to punish a child without touching him.
Yeah sure
Oh, come on, Sal...
1- This is an extraordinary reaction, that's why they put it on Youtube.
2- Kids act out, they give up real quick when it doesn't work though, 15 minutes later, he'll calm down and start acting normal.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2016 06:40 PM |
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Physical violence against children is the worst thing possible, and for a ton of reasons; it's actually humiliating AND you cannot fight back as a child, which iS paradoxically something you WANT, because you don't want to educate children into cowering in the face of a threat of physical violence.
YOu might say that physical violence is teaching all the wrong lessons.
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted October 29, 2016 06:44 PM |
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Molesting children isn't only about physical violence. Psychological violence is way more harmful for the next steps of children lives such as humiliations, intimidations, injustices and so on.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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tSar-Ivor
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Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 29, 2016 07:33 PM |
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AlHazin said:
Molesting children isn't only about physical violence. Psychological violence is way more harmful for the next steps of children lives such as humiliations, intimidations, injustices and so on.
^ This, most of it comes down to the child feeling powerless when in reality they are not. I mean my father thought everything I did damaged his 'authority', maybe I was just passively an anarchist idk, as I grew up I noticed just how weak he was and ousted him pretty damn quick after that, he wasn't some drunk beating his kids. Just some megalomaniac who beat us to keep us in line, so when violence fails to compell you and you have 5 brothers by your side all doing everything they can to make his life hell the tables turn pretty damn quick. I don't resent him or anything, but it is deeply humiliating feeling powerless, with some dominating figure trying to tell you how to think and act through violence and intimidation.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted October 29, 2016 07:40 PM |
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Guys, violence can express in many ways. 1 days of prison is worse than one hundred slaps and the authority can indeed hurt.
Nobody said that you have to use violence against children but, however, the family has to teach them the concept of authority, and when there is NO other solution, a slap can do wonders. Claiming that a slap is always violence and leaves tracks for life is laughable.
Look today what happens in schools, teachers get beaten, hurt and humiliated by such kids who were never taught there is a limit to how far they can go. The same kids will be the young people from tomorrow who will despise common laws, spit on police and ask favors they don't deserve. Authority, discipline and responsibility are values who slowly melt away nowadays, and there are dozens of tools who can help into teaching them. A slap is part of.
You don't agree, that's fine, more opinions generate discussions. But don't come and tell me a slap is a dramatic issue and doesn't help at all, you base your claim on nothing concrete, then the alternative is way too young to have proven it creates a better world.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted October 29, 2016 07:53 PM |
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tSar-Ivor said:
I mean my father thought everything I did damaged his 'authority'
Those are individual cases of pathological violence, your father beat you because he had some personal issues. Not because this was the last tool to make you understand you did something bad, then all other tools failed. My father was brain damaged, due to some X-rays they tried to heal him in his teens, so he always got berserk in seconds then the punishment was instant and very brutal. Normally I should be the first to claim that parental violence is bad, but here is where I make a difference between a deserved slap and someone going fool then choosing a weak target to discharge his nerves.
Therefore we should specify if we talk about contained and deserved physical punishment or about mad people beating kids because they can't restrain their madness. Both are not equally perceived by the target.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted October 29, 2016 08:06 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 20:07, 29 Oct 2016.
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Salamandre -
Quote:
Guys, violence can express in many ways. 1 days of prison is worse than one hundred slaps and the authority can indeed hurt.
The countries, where beating of the children is a common stuff, is usually have a much more higher percent of the criminal stuff. Usually the life conditions in this countries are worst, than in the countries with the "humanistic weeny parents, that will go to the Psychiatric Clinics that is specialized on the kiddo-parents relations, instead of beating their kiddo with a stick". Perhaps this factors are connected, perhaps it is not.
In my opinion, it is just an evolution of the human societies on the Earth.
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted October 29, 2016 08:43 PM |
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tSar-Ivor said:
This, most of it comes down to the child feeling powerless when in reality they are not. I mean my father thought everything I did damaged his 'authority', maybe I was just passively an anarchist idk, as I grew up I noticed just how weak he was and ousted him pretty damn quick after that, he wasn't some drunk beating his kids. Just some megalomaniac who beat us to keep us in line, so when violence fails to compell you and you have 5 brothers by your side all doing everything they can to make his life hell the tables turn pretty damn quick. I don't resent him or anything, but it is deeply humiliating feeling powerless, with some dominating figure trying to tell you how to think and act through violence and intimidation.
Actually, you might be an example explaining that the use of psychological violence against children indicates a big issue in the parent. And thus the harm and injuries may lay deeper in the victims than the physical violence.
I sincerly hope that you're not suffering from it in any way in your life today.
Salamandre said:
Guys, violence can express in many ways. 1 days of prison is worse than one hundred slaps and the authority can indeed hurt.
Nobody said that you have to use violence against children but, however, the family has to teach them the concept of authority, and when there is NO other solution, a slap can do wonders. Claiming that a slap is always violence and leaves tracks for life is laughable.
Look today what happens in schools, teachers get beaten, hurt and humiliated by such kids who were never taught there is a limit to how far they can go. The same kids will be the young people from tomorrow who will despise common laws, spit on police and ask favors they don't deserve. Authority, discipline and responsibility are values who slowly melt away nowadays, and there are dozens of tools who can help into teaching them. A slap is part of.
You don't agree, that's fine, more opinions generate discussions. But don't come and tell me a slap is a dramatic issue and doesn't help at all, you base your claim on nothing concrete, then the alternative is way too young to have proven it creates a better world.
I agree with you, a slap, sometimes, can do much more good than bad. But it has to be "deserved" if you know what I mean, and not be a sort of Melagomania-entairtaining habit.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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tSar-Ivor
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posted October 29, 2016 09:10 PM |
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Quote:
I sincerly hope that you're not suffering from it in any way in your life today.
The years following him being kicked out were kinda rough as it was a house full of boys with zero discipline and hatred for authority figures so it was extremely chaotic to say the least, but we've all matured quite well especially in the last year or so, all my younger bros have gotten proper jobs and have moved out, while am at uni, with only the lil sisters and mum back at the family home.
All that violence and just passive intimidation, I can't quite describe it now, it was constant air of repression. And you're right, it was not a sign of strength but severe weakness on my father's part, and it all fell apart for him when we started sensing it. He's no different now than he was back then, but his approach is certainly a lot more pleasant, it's kinda like overcoming an illness, once you've developed an immunity that's it.
I guess I had it easier than most kids as my father is calculating and just evil, while other people suffer under senseless beating and constant unprovoked violence, be it from a drunk or just a dumb brute . Meanwhile for us if we did everything we were told to (tried to repress even the way we think, the Scientology years were particularly bad lol) we had little cause for fear, but yeah it just wasn't in our nature to.
Quote:
contained and deserved physical punishment
Violence is the last ditch act of desperation of one who clearly doesn't know what they're doing, since violence isn't a means to an end, it's an end inofitself, it doesn't solve anything but it is useful if you want to stop something in its tracks. However, you can't just use violence to beat your point into the child or as godforbid as punishment, (what kind of prison style household is that?) that is obscene and makes you no different than a thug! Not only that, it amounts to assault and battery in most civilised countries.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted October 29, 2016 09:31 PM |
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tSar-Ivor said:
so the family home is just my two younger sisters and mother.
Girls den, hehe.
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The fact that your bros got proper jobs is an important sign that those treatments didn't control their live by having them influenced in a bad way. They could overcome them eventually. Even thought this overpassing always require a strong work on oneself.
That's a known fact that the weak is harsh with the weaker, usually strong people just let go the minor offenses/disobediences that are not that important, they won't tell you how to think, and surely not force you in any way. And sometimes, understanding that the parent who beat you and made you suffer was "ill" and "irrational" means you won't be reproducing such behaviours, likely to "forgive" the person in your heart and thus overcoming the sufferance.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2016 09:37 PM |
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Look, a "slap" isn't punishment for hurt, but for SHOCK value, which means it*s punishment for something "shocking", say, being extremely disrespectful )which in itself is a sign of bad education).
That's it. Pain as an educational motovation may work with animals a la Pavlov and his reflexes, but we are a little more complex beings.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 29, 2016 10:46 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Yeah sure
reminds me of one of my nephews. he'll act like a little snow repeatedly(he gets a kick out of making people angry at him), and when i grab ahold of him and stop him from moving for awhile, he goes berserk. but i always warn him plenty of times before i result to anything physical. his parents allow his behavior, and he'll likely grow up to be a serial killer, or at least a convict. i keep trying to steer him in the right direction, but he fights me tooth and nail. he reminds me of myself as a kid: just needs an asswhipping to fix the natural order of things.
i absolutely advocate an asswhipping, if words or other punishments have no effect(which they snowing don't, if you look at kids today. you have to be blind, to see that "soft and gentle punishment" doesn't work on kids, especially when their parents are pushovers). you can't modify a kid's behavior peacefully if the kid is an snow(which parents are breeding by being soft on them). you have to train the kid not to be an snow.
a parent's job, is to train their offspring to assimilate into society, and help to make it better with their children. and as far as i can see, most fail miserably at that.
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Stevie
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posted October 29, 2016 10:57 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:04, 29 Oct 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
Look, a "slap" isn't punishment for hurt, but for SHOCK value,
No, it's primarily for hurt, that's what physical punishment is all about. It can bear other dimensions like humiliation or psychological abuse, but the fact that it's meant to hurt shouldn't even be a point of contention.
JollyJoker said:
That's it. Pain as an educational motovation may work with animals a la Pavlov and his reflexes, but we are a little more complex beings.
Not really, the principle is the same for humans too.
I'm fine with physical correction when it's for educational purposes and not for self-satisfaction. As a kid it did me well.
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tSar-Ivor
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Scourge of God
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posted October 30, 2016 12:58 AM |
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fred79 said:
Salamandre said:
Yeah sure
reminds me of one of my nephews. he'll act like a little snow repeatedly(he gets a kick out of making people angry at him), and when i grab ahold of him and stop him from moving for awhile, he goes berserk. but i always warn him plenty of times before i result to anything physical. his parents allow his behavior, and he'll likely grow up to be a serial killer, or at least a convict. i keep trying to steer him in the right direction, but he fights me tooth and nail. he reminds me of myself as a kid: just needs an asswhipping to fix the natural order of things.
i absolutely advocate an asswhipping, if words or other punishments have no effect(which they snowing don't, if you look at kids today. you have to be blind, to see that "soft and gentle punishment" doesn't work on kids, especially when their parents are pushovers). you can't modify a kid's behavior peacefully if the kid is an snow(which parents are breeding by being soft on them). you have to train the kid not to be an snow.
a parent's job, is to train their offspring to assimilate into society, and help to make it better with their children. and as far as i can see, most fail miserably at that.
Sounds like my nephew, like took one of my mates to my grandparent's house for a family gathering and my friend chatted with him and my kid nephew was like 'I want to drill people's faces in', and 'i've seen my sister's pussy'. He's friggin 10 and plays GTA 5 (tbh I played gta 1 as a kid too but this is a whole different level). My mate was like holy snow he's going to grow up to be a **** psychopath. When he gets a little violent like kicking people randomly I just pick him up over my head or I pin him on the floor and tickle him since tickling equates to torture, but seems pleasant to onlookers. But yeah, was tempted to throw his ass into the pond a few times. That said hitting him would do him no good, at best just stops him doing it infront of you, doesn't kill his urge to do it.
My mate is a super pacifist and the biggest ***** (suka) you will ever see, and literally he kept going, "ima ****ing punch him, ima ****ing punch him." Eventually yours truly saved him from the little terror, or saved the little terror from a broken nose (My nephew weighs nothing a punch might've actually killed him). The little bugger doesn't do anything to me, maybe there's too much animal instinct in them, must be something they ate cause even **** parenting can't lead to such a failure (my other two cousins are decent and well brought up, both the lad and the lass, so can't be down to just parenting unless they tried something new and disastrous).
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted October 30, 2016 01:15 AM |
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tSar-Ivor said:
That said hitting him would do him no good, at best just stops him doing it infront of you, doesn't kill his urge to do it.
Exactly. From my experience spanking is an inefficient solution. The pain does not fix anything that taking away a privilege could not, it is only a deterrent and if other deterrents won't work I doubt spanking will either.
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fred79
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posted October 30, 2016 01:23 AM |
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@ tsar: the nephew in question killed his own hamster intentionally, when he was 5 or 6. he took it out of it's cage and stepped on it. after it was dead, he put it in his backpack and tried to act like it had been squashed by the books in it. his brother told everyone the truth, tho. which is probably why he's constantly shoving his brother around. i've tried advising him on how to at least pretend to be good, and that having people like you means you get away with so much more, but he doesn't listen. he gets a kick out of pissing people off; every time he smiles that smile at me when i'm angry at him and trying to correct his behavior by instructing him, i want to slap his face right off his snowing skull. his dad knows how angry his kid makes people, and he just laughs about it. he thinks he's just being an snow; but i see so much more than that, in the kid. but maybe he just enjoys being mean, hopefully. he's too frail to ever be a bully, but when he grows up he'll be big enough to do some real damage to whatever he feels like. and when he does it, he'll have a grin on his face. if he stays in the same vein he's in now, he'll be the kind of guy who goes to the electic chair, grinning and being happy about what he did to others. i have no doubt.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted October 30, 2016 01:33 AM |
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tSar-Ivor said:
That said hitting him would do him no good, at best just stops him doing it infront of you, doesn't kill his urge to do it.
I have a constant urge to punch in the face all leftists but I don't do it, for two reasons: a) I would be ashamed because that would mean I am too dumb and in lack of arguments of fighting their sick ideology, then b) I will have to face the state violence, like having to pay a fine, going to jail, losing my job and such. This potential violence is enough dissuasive to stop me doing what it passes through my head.
However the state will not punish me randomly, like giving 30 years of jail for one slap, and this is exactly how parents should do it too, apply the right punishment, which can be a slap, ass-whipping, an interdiction, or anything, depending on the situation. And if it works, repeat. If it doesn't, search for another way.
Then there is an aspect which is very important: what works on a kid will not necessarily work with all others. Some will probably become even more violent if you punch them, others will only get the idea that there are some limits to their freedom and will act accordingly in the future. Also educating a kid is a complex thing which, usually, fails. So there is no one way to do it and we are yet to find the final recipe for it.
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