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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Worst hero class in HOMM3
Thread: Worst hero class in HOMM3 This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 24, 2016 04:54 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 16:55, 24 Oct 2016.

HeymlicH said:
@knights vs Rangers: The problem with knights is, that they can learn all 4 magic schools, while Rangers can't learn fire magic. Because of that, Rangers are guaranteed to learn earth magic, while knights may end up getting earth very late or not at all. Of course it is fine to give Orrin 3k Exp to see what happens, and if he is offered earth at lvl 4, make him your main. But if he gets something else, I wouldn't invest any further into him.
Guaranteed is somewhat of an exaggeration and so is the need for earth magic, it greatly depends on the town you play. If you play Tower then only mister Hack will topple Orrin.
HeymlicH said:
As for tower: Neela sucks, sorry. She never gets the right skills, it is really annoying. With tower the best choice by far for a starting hero is Cyra, or if Diplo is banned just get Aine and hope for a ranger.
If you play as Tower, the first rule is to look for Barbs, lords, Elems etc. in the tavern. If you find none then Neela is probably better than your typical wizard. Cyra is a decent starting hero but both Neela and Aine tends to be a better choice, at least for me.
Maag said:
Weird. I pick her always with Tower and use her as main until end of game. She rarely fails me.
As long as you only use her if no other fighter turns up.
As for Crag, that is one of the few weak spots he has, but due to the specialty and high attack gain, he still rules.

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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted October 25, 2016 12:44 AM
Edited by Maag at 01:06, 25 Oct 2016.

Ebonheart said:
HeymlicH said:
@knights vs Rangers: The problem with knights is, that they can learn all 4 magic schools, while Rangers can't learn fire magic. Because of that, Rangers are guaranteed to learn earth magic, while knights may end up getting earth very late or not at all. Of course it is fine to give Orrin 3k Exp to see what happens, and if he is offered earth at lvl 4, make him your main. But if he gets something else, I wouldn't invest any further into him.
Guaranteed is somewhat of an exaggeration and so is the need for earth magic, it greatly depends on the town you play. If you play Tower then only mister Hack will topple Orrin.
HeymlicH said:
As for tower: Neela sucks, sorry. She never gets the right skills, it is really annoying. With tower the best choice by far for a starting hero is Cyra, or if Diplo is banned just get Aine and hope for a ranger.
If you play as Tower, the first rule is to look for Barbs, lords, Elems etc. in the tavern. If you find none then Neela is probably better than your typical wizard. Cyra is a decent starting hero but both Neela and Aine tends to be a better choice, at least for me.
Maag said:
Weird. I pick her always with Tower and use her as main until end of game. She rarely fails me.
As long as you only use her if no other fighter turns up.
As for Crag, that is one of the few weak spots he has, but due to the specialty and high attack gain, he still rules.



Ebonheart, I totally disagree. Once i thought the same, that Orrin is best for Tower. Is he really? Hack is better, yes? Ofc! So are Tazar, Neela, Mephala, Gundula, you name it.
The reason is easy - both Offense and Armorer affect ALL units, while Archery only has effect on shooters. Let's face it, by the time, when u face your enemy, your only real shooter stack is Titan. That also in case, if map is rich, L or larger (on medium map u go early to battle with Naga Queens and Giants).
When you confront your enemy and have final battle between mains, then your M. Gremlins have more artistic value of blue coat wearing old grumpie, than real warrior, on who u could count on. The same goes even for mage pretty much. On HotA (only H3 game, where Tower is playable imo) u probably get mages, when other dwellings and creatures have bought, which means week 2 or even 3, depending on resources. U suffer great loss from there already. Even u later regain them and difference goes smaller, u must one moment upgrade them too for the sake of speed, that's another +5 all resources, while u could think to upgrade your guild already.
What i am really trying to say is, that common "Expert archery" with it's + 50% range damage is enough. MUCH more important is to acquire either Golden bow or even Bow of Sharpshooter, which is among best artifacts in game imo.

Which specialty hero is best for Tower, depends on game i would say.
Usually if you play with Tower and esp. if it's native game, their army is slow, very slow. Considering it, this is the town, which gets hit first and then strikes back. While keeping this in mind, i would say Armorer fits them better (imho).
Yet Offense would be even better in regular type of game, while u can bring in AA's or Phoenixes for sake of speed to start battle before enemy. On large map and long game it is not impossible to happen, but enemy could try the same. The fact is, u must get initiative in battle, if you wish to use Orrian and this Archery specialty. But u know what, against dragons this is not enough. To slow them down u need Orb of Vulnerability. That is something, what is not easy to get, unless u play Jebus Cross and L or larger map. Slowing down dragons would be more effectice than hasting your Titans.
Note that most tough tier 7 creatures are faster than Titan, they generally start and if they hit Titan or "land" beside him, then u don't have any usage of your Orrin or Archery in general. Would be only, if u have Bow of the Sharpshooter.


I would pick Orrin over Neela only, if i know, i will get Bow of the Sharpshooter in this game + Cape of Velocity or at least "Ring of the Wayfarer" + mass haste.
Or option 2 - Orb of Vulnerability + mass slow + Golden bow or Sharpshooter bow...
Plus both these ways require that u could bring in your army some AA's or Azures or Phoenixes.
What are chances for these options to be granted for final battle?


The thing about Neela. I would put her on the same league with Mephala. How is even possible to compare her to Aine or Cyra, i could not "digest" it. It's like comparing F-22 Raptor to... Spitfire and Yak.
Aine or Cyra are wizards, which get mostly knowledge and lack even power. Plus they receive bunch of garbage skills, like Mysticism, Eagle Eye etc. To be honest, wizards are the worst pick in game usually. Cyra only is useful due her haste, but on L or even M map u eventually get it anyway and Diplo is banned in most cases.
Aine is earning u a bit tips, but that's imho nowhere close to reason to pick her as main. For secondary, she is good ofc.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted October 25, 2016 05:15 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 05:17, 25 Oct 2016.

Maag said:
...

Basicly, Neela with Tactics was by far the best hero for Tower (she would still be mediocre for towns that don't relly much of archers) but by some reason they had her like that in HotA and then they return her to the original. Does anyone knows what made them do it?

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted October 25, 2016 11:33 AM
Edited by AlHazin at 20:31, 27 Oct 2016.

Let's compare the two classes, since Nimostar doesn't want a new thread :

So this, is a comparison between the Knight and the Ranger. Evidently, every strategy and varying data will make a class better than the other.

Starting primary skills :

       Att/Def/Sp/Kno

Knight : 2/2/1/1
Ranger : 1/3/1/1


Primary skills advancement :

The knight is balanced, so is the ranger with a slightly more defensive mentality.

       Att/Def/Sp/Kno (Level 2-9 and then from level 10)

Knight : 40%/40%/10%/10% and then 30%/30%/20%/20%
Ranger : 35%/45%/10%/10% and then 30%/30%/20%/20%


Heroes specialties :

On water maps Castle is better than Rampart in general, and that is noticible in the heroes specialties, while in land, Rampart is better at territory management. (Faster low level units, specs).

Lord Haart : Estate / Jenova : +350 gold/day.
Orrin : Archery / Mephala : Armorer.
Tyris : Cavaliers / Clancy : Unicorns.
Sylvia : Navigation / Kyrre : Logistics.
Sorcha : Swordsmen / Ryland : Dendroids.
Edric : Griffins / Ivor : Elves.
Christian : Ballista / Thorgrim : Resistance.
Valeska : Marksmen / Ufretin : Dwarves.


Heroes starting secondary skills :

Well ALL knights start with Leadership and something else usually depending on their specialty.

Lord Haart : Basic Leadership ; Basic Estates.
Orrin : Basic Leadership ; Basic Archery.
Tyris : Basic Leadership ; Basic Tactics.
Sylvia : Basic Leadership ; Basic Navigation.
Sorcha : Basic Leadership ; Basic Offense.
Edric : Basic Leadership ; Basic Armorer.
Christian : Basic Leadership ; Basic Tactics.
Valeska : Basic Leadership ; Basic Archery.

For rangers there's more variety, but as you see some skills often come back : Archery, Resistance.

Jenova : Advanced Archery.
Mephala : Basic Leadership ; Basic Armorer.
Clancy : Basic Resistance ; Basic Pathfinding.
Kyrre : Basic Archery ; Basic Logistics.
Ryland : Basic Leadership, Basic Diplomacy.
Ivor : Basic Archery, Basic Offense.
Thorgrim : Advanced Resistance.
Ufretin : Basic Resistance ; Basic Luck.


Secondary skills advancement :

Skills           Knight       Ranger
Air Magic             3          1
Archery               5          8
Armorer               5          8
Artillery               5          6
Ballistics              8          4
Diplomacy            4          4
Eagle Eye            2          2
Earth Magic         2          3
Estates               6          2
Fire Magic           1          0
First Aid              2          3
Intelligence         1          2
Leadership          10         6
Learning              4          4
Logistics             5           5
Luck                  3           6
Mysticism           2           3
Navigation          8           3
Necromancy        0          0
Offense              7          5
Pathfinding          4         7
Resistance          5         10
Scholar              1          1
Scouting            4          7
Sorcery             1          2
Tactics              7         5
Water Magic       4          2
Wisdom             3          3
Total              112         112

So :

Kinghts have better chances to learn magic schools, except for Earth where the Ranger has a little advantage, but he is restricted from fire (with normal meens). Both are restricted from Necromancy.

Knights are usually better in offense, while Rangers specialize more in defence.

Knights are better at using machines, including boats. They are more tacticians, better economists, leading armies.

Rangers being wildish, are better in land, with pathfinding and log specialty. They are a bit more magic oriented, more intelligent, more shamanic, and lucky.

Both are as wise, focusing on studies, and diplomates.


@Nimostar : Anything to add?
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 25, 2016 02:17 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 14:23, 25 Oct 2016.

Maag said:
Ebonheart, I totally disagree. Once i thought the same, that Orrin is best for Tower. Is he really? Hack is better, yes? Ofc! So are Tazar, Neela, Mephala, Gundula, you name it.
The reason is easy - both Offense and Armorer affect ALL units, while Archery only has effect on shooters.

Judging from your answer, id say you have some experience with the Tower but it can be increased.
Why would Orrin be better than the heroes you mentioned? It's because the other heroes are not as great vs the map with the exception for Gundula, but her downside is the wisdom skill which is of no use until later on.
Tazar, Neela and Mephala might be strong in the end fight, but they are far less superior vs the map due to their abysmal attack scaling and also because attack>defense. And the faster and more efficiently you clear the map, the better are your chances to win.
Maag said:
Let's face it, by the time, when u face your enemy, your only real shooter stack is Titan. That also in case, if map is rich, L or larger (on medium map u go early to battle with Naga Queens and Giants).When you confront your enemy and have final battle between mains, then your M. Gremlins have more artistic value of blue coat wearing old grumpie, than real warrior, on who u could count on. The same goes even for mage pretty much..

No. This is just way wrong.
This is just one example from a fight vs a stack of enchanters with 17 attack.
9x Titans: 1,3k-1,9k damage.
367 Master Gremlins: 0,9-1,9k.
As you can see the Titans are better and have a shorter damage range, but the Gremlins are able to match them pretty close, and full on if Blessed.
The Arch Magi stack is not all that bad either depending on its size.
Maag said:
What i am really trying to say is, that common "Expert archery" with it's + 50% range damage is enough. MUCH more important is to acquire either Golden bow or even Bow of Sharpshooter, which is among best artifacts in game imo.

No it is much more important to aquire Orb of Inhibition (Red orb). It might be somewhat ironic, but Tower with that Orb pretty much seals the deal since your foe is forced to come to you and won't be able to stop your onslaught of volleys.
And you can be sure Orrin with more than 100% ranged damage will hurt.
Maag said:
Which specialty hero is best for Tower, depends on game i would say.
Naturally, but attack > defense tends to be the way to go in most games.
Maag said:
if you wish to use Orrian and this Archery specialty. But u know what, against dragons this is not enough. To slow them down u need Orb of Vulnerability. That is something, what is not easy to get, unless u play Jebus Cross and L or larger map. Slowing down dragons would be more effectice than hasting your Titans.
Note that most tough tier 7 creatures are faster than Titan, they generally start and if they hit Titan or "land" beside him, then u don't have any usage of your Orrin or Archery in general. Would be only, if u have Bow of the Sharpshooter.

Once again, you want the red orb, not the black one. The Tower army is very resilient and if your enemy sends in his Dragons with the OoI in play, they will be torn to shreds. For if your Titans are blocked, that means your Gremlin stack and Magi Stack and Nagas will feast on the Dragons. Even with Magic the enemy will be forced to make painful decisions on what stack to block/take out.
Maag said:
The thing about Neela. I would put her on the same league with Mephala. How is even possible to compare her to Aine or Cyra, i could not "digest" it. It's like comparing F-22 Raptor to... Spitfire and Yak.

Aine and Cyra will not beat Mephala when it comes to main hero material. What was said is that they are the most promising starter heroes of the Tower for various reasons, but a wizard is never main material.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 25, 2016 02:56 PM

The problem is that on today templates, the army you get from external dwellings -wiverns and angels, will be much superior to your native one. And this army is only melee. So, tower or not, archer specialist doesn't make much sense.

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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted October 25, 2016 09:43 PM
Edited by Maag at 23:21, 25 Oct 2016.

bloodsucker said:
Maag said:
...

Basicly, Neela with Tactics was by far the best hero for Tower (she would still be mediocre for towns that don't relly much of archers) but by some reason they had her like that in HotA and then they return her to the original. Does anyone knows what made them do it?


Oh, i see now. Didn't get your point at first. I read all the posts through in this topic and got idea. Actually i didn't know she had tactics in HotA. Maybe HotA crew turned her back into original, cuz all Alchemists have Scholar anyway?
I wouldn't say that Scholar is completely useless. U don't have any reason to return with your main into your town or other towns, if nothing special to do there. Scholar grants u all good spells, except level 5 ones. So good to see in regular game in tavern Alamar or Jeddite, Dungeon guys with Resurrection and buy them, then transfer Resurrection to Neela Now Cove even have guy with Clone. When this guy appears, i would buy him too to transfer it. From Solmyr u get Chain Lightning and so on and so on...
For primary skill tree, i don't agree. She seems to get everything quite evenly, by end of the game, attack and defense even a bit more than power and knowledge. Usually attack goes ahead of defense too. But perhaps it is, cuz i tend to choose attack always from "+1 attack or defense" buildings (or +2 buildings).
As about choosing hero by looks, i share this passion That is the reason, why i never take Ayden or Shakti, lol


Ebonheart,
i read through your post carefully. Interesting ideas. However i think my way is also reasonable.
Red orb (Orb of Inhibition) turns off all magic. Basically, what it does, is grants everyone Black Dragons ability to resist all magic 100%. Tower has more spells from mage guilds + Master Genie could cast too. Red orb takes it all away afaik. So it has both ups and downs.
If your army strength is nearly same, like your opponent, then next aspect which comes in, is speed. Which army would start. Probably the other one, not Tower. That means their Devils, Angels, Dragons, or Phoenixes can wait and hit "twice" next time, when they go. If you have Bow of the Sharpshooter and opponent does not know it, then u can surprise enemy and hit their Blacks with your Titans. Damn good deal. So therefor in L or larger maps, where is fully developed Tower, it may sound good to launch immediate attack on Titans with your Blacks. But then as you already said, M. Gremlins, Mages or Archmages and Naga Queens would all attack Blacks, plus Titan itself. Which means somehow, one way or another, Blacks get some serious damage.
I still find it is crucial to get Golden bow or even better - Bow of the Sharpshooter with Tower. Especially if your M. Gremlins and Mages have survived without any major losses. In that case 3 archers + Bow of the Sharpshooter + Orrin let's say level 25 or higher sounds really sweet.
Another case, where i could think to use red orb, is Tower against high spellpower Dungeon or Inferno - blocks possible Implosion or Armageddon


Salamandre,
yes, that is also one reason, why i preferred Armorer over Archery, because it affects everyone and if you could get Golden or Sharps. bow early game, it get's u such boost aginst map, that u don't even need Orrin and could benefit from Neela's Armorer in endfight. Too bad it almost never happen that u get one of these bows early...
About Wyverns and Angels. Doesn't it vary a lot, depending on certain template? I recently like to play poor Jebus and feel, that not so many Hives and Cons. are present compared to Jebus Cross. Original template seem to have even less. But maybe i'm wrong here...


Coming back to topic, which was here generally discussed, Knights vs Rangers, imo Rangers are better. In my humble opinion, those "probabilities to get certain secondary skill" are a bit over dramatized. Knights and Rangers both seem to get quice nice skills, without major problems. Imo it is easier to choose skills when u start with 2 secondary skills. All knights have Leadership, which imo is wasted slot. Rangers start with Archery often + Offense or some with Logistics, which are all crucial and amazing for start so from there u get already upper hand + the fact that u can start using Grand Elves very fast + speed of Centaurs etc.
But the most important thing is, among Rangers u can choose between Logistics specialty, Armorer or even Resistance, while Castle provides only Archery specialty.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 26, 2016 09:30 AM
Edited by Ebonheart at 09:33, 26 Oct 2016.

Salamandre said:
The problem is that on today templates, the army you get from external dwellings -wiverns and angels, will be much superior to your native one. And this army is only melee. So, tower or not, archer specialist doesn't make much sense.

Indeed Sal, but it creates a rather hilarious dilemma. Due to the increased archery, you have more deadly archers, which in turn drives a greater wedge in the opponents selection process because there are now more lethal candidates involved.
Maag said:
Ebonheart,
i read through your post carefully. Interesting ideas. However i think my way is also reasonable.
Red orb (Orb of Inhibition) turns off all magic. Basically, what it does, is grants everyone Black Dragons ability to resist all magic 100%. Tower has more spells from mage guilds + Master Genie could cast too. Red orb takes it all away afaik. So it has both ups and downs.
Your way is reasonable and certainly not bad, it just exposes the Tower a bit more. The main strength and weakness of the Tower is your ranged troops. The enemy will be forced to come to you and with magic in play, that makes it easier to cross the field. Without magic, the opponent is in for quite a predicament - advance or hold. If he advances, only a handful of creatures can pass the entire field in one turn without morale boost and if he bides his time, the tower archers (esp Titans and Gremlins) will be shielded in.
Maag said:
If your army strength is nearly same, like your opponent, then next aspect which comes in, is speed. Which army would start. Probably the other one, not Tower. That means their Devils, Angels, Dragons, or Phoenixes can wait and hit "twice" next time, when they go. If you have Bow of the Sharpshooter and opponent does not know it, then u can surprise enemy and hit their Blacks with your Titans. Damn good deal. So therefor in L or larger maps, where is fully developed Tower, it may sound good to launch immediate attack on Titans with your Blacks. But then as you already said, M. Gremlins, Mages or Archmages and Naga Queens would all attack Blacks, plus Titan itself. Which means somehow, one way or another, Blacks get some serious damage.

I guess this post will be a bit repetitive. The crux for the enemy will be that if an advance is made, too few creatures will pass over in time. Should a "wait" approach be taken, then the Tower will shield in the units (and a good player will not allow a double-breath to happen that often).
Maag said:
I still find it is crucial to get Golden bow or even better - Bow of the Sharpshooter with Tower. Especially if your M. Gremlins and Mages have survived without any major losses. In that case 3 archers + Bow of the Sharpshooter + Orrin let's say level 25 or higher sounds really sweet.
Another case, where i could think to use red orb, is Tower against high spellpower Dungeon or Inferno - blocks possible Implosion or Armageddon

Golden Bow and Bow of the Sharpshooter are certainly good artifacts and should be aquired if spotted. Just take note that BotS is not too good if you play a Hack/Gund. Still, the Red Orb is what I would level as most crucial due to the impact it has on enemy advances and also like you mentioned, protection to your own troops from deadly magics.
Maag said:
Salamandre,
yes, that is also one reason, why i preferred Armorer over Archery, because it affects everyone and if you could get Golden or Sharps. bow early game, it get's u such boost aginst map, that u don't even need Orrin and could benefit from Neela's Armorer in endfight. Too bad it almost never happen that u get one of these bows early...
About Wyverns and Angels. Doesn't it vary a lot, depending on certain template? I recently like to play poor Jebus and feel, that not so many Hives and Cons. are present compared to Jebus Cross. Original template seem to have even less. But maybe i'm wrong here...

Hehe it depends on how you look at it. If you play as intended vs the map (hit hard, no hitting back) then your armorer skill is just as useless as having archery with no archers.
While it can "feel" more safe vs the map, what actually matters is brute strength.
And yes the amount of Wyverns/Angels on the map can wary but you always tend to have at least 2-3 hives and 1-2 conservs on your turf.
Maag said:
Coming back to topic, which was here generally discussed, Knights vs Rangers, imo Rangers are better. In my humble opinion, those "probabilities to get certain secondary skill" are a bit over dramatized. Knights and Rangers both seem to get quice nice skills, without major problems. Imo it is easier to choose skills when u start with 2 secondary skills. All knights have Leadership, which imo is wasted slot. Rangers start with Archery often + Offense or some with Logistics, which are all crucial and amazing for start so from there u get already upper hand + the fact that u can start using Grand Elves very fast + speed of Centaurs etc.
But the most important thing is, among Rangers u can choose between Logistics specialty, Armorer or even Resistance, while Castle provides only Archery specialty.

I personally think the line between Rangers and Knights is blurred. Both have almost similar pros and cons when you factor in the level up. I agree with you though Maag, it tends to be easier levling up a hero with 2 solid starting skills as you can technically avoid more trashy skills on the way.

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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted October 27, 2016 01:05 AM

Ebonheart said:

Hehe it depends on how you look at it. If you play as intended vs the map (hit hard, no hitting back) then your armorer skill is just as useless as having archery with no archers.
While it can "feel" more safe vs the map, what actually matters is brute strength.
And yes the amount of Wyverns/Angels on the map can wary but you always tend to have at least 2-3 hives and 1-2 conservs on your turf.



Brute strangth is good, but it requires upper hand to get effect. U have to hit first. But even u do, if u have final battle, enemy is Tazar, he will withstand alot also
If the game u play is regular and u can get AA's or Phoenixes with Tower, then probably with Tactics, Hack could be best hero for Tower.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 27, 2016 06:04 AM
Edited by Ebonheart at 06:05, 27 Oct 2016.

No that's not the point Maag. Brute strength is better vs the map and the faster you can clear/drain your side of the map with few or no losses, the better are your chances at victory. Tazar can be deadly at high level but since his attack scaling is low you won't drain the map with the same pace or low loss rate compared to an offense hero. So while Tazar might provide a better advantage in the end fight, that advantage will be gone if your enemy has drained his side + a major part of the treasure zone before you do and on top of that with no losses.

As for Tactics, it is a must, regardless of town. It is simply too good to pass up.
Also how in the world did you intend to get AAs or Phoenixes I wonder?

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Nimostar
Nimostar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 27, 2016 07:35 AM

Not much to add about the comparison, except that 50% more earth chance is not "little" to me.
Also, Stayes is considered bad ability, especially for mains. Quite a few bad abilities have more stats for knights. Good abilities like resistance which can win a. battle have more for Ranger.
Also pathfind and logistics, no?
only clearbadvantage of knights I see is their high Ballistics chance, but ranger chancr is quite good too. As you mostly need it in high levels, it will be there on time.

wad nice seenling the stats together.
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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 27, 2016 08:17 PM

I have always wondered why Rangers love archery skill so much even tough they only have one ranged creature, true a good one but they get blocked/killed in end fight quite easily. Druids from heroes 1&2 would make much more sense and should have been replaced Pegasos, or lv1 ranged creature as halfling. There is tree more, 1 ranged creature towns than just Rampart but I deffinetly missed one archer for them the most. Now, archery is not even Rangers favorite skill, weird.

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted October 27, 2016 08:29 PM
Edited by AlHazin at 20:29, 27 Oct 2016.

Archery was maybe introduced so popular amongst Rangers to give them a quick start with the centaures/elves combo for map cleaning, especially for heroes like Ivor or Jenova, which is still crucial in mid-game.

And as you may see, Archery is not popular amongst Alchemists or Wizards, despite the Tower having 3 ranged units, while it sometimes is with Fortress which has like rampart only one shooter, and he's not as good as elves.
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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted October 27, 2016 09:04 PM

Ebonheart said:

As for Tactics, it is a must, regardless of town. It is simply too good to pass up.
Also how in the world did you intend to get AAs or Phoenixes I wonder?


About Tactics, totally agree. I even often prefer it to logistics and hope to get Fly or DD later on. My geek.

Either it is possible to get AA's, depends on map type, size i think. XL or larger map, i would hope for it, in case if Castle's near Tower and map is full on resources. Can wait with mage guild level 4 or 5 and try to get Angels. After that upgrade Portal of Glory. It may sound unreal though.
I have very few online game experience. So my knowledge comes from past + current playing, forums and from lan's and few online games, so i might be too naive. The idea is simple actually. I really value battle speed. For success is crucial to start before enemy, that is my opinion. With Tactics u can overrun your enemy and i don't want to be overrunned.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 28, 2016 07:52 AM
Edited by Ebonheart at 07:53, 28 Oct 2016.

While it is doable to get the resources for a Castle upgrade(s) what will likely prevent it in an online match is the time frame. While it is possible (esp as Tower) to push into the treasure zone during M1W2D1 it requires a good luck on getting the right skills, the "right" mobs guarding the entrance and utopias nearby along with a trading post + the actual Castle town.
So yes, can be done, but it is unlikely.

Battle speed is certainly great, everyone loves more speed.
But Tower has that in short supply, but the damage/resilience is highest of all towns (but you pay with an arm and a leg for it).

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HeymlicH
HeymlicH


Known Hero
posted October 28, 2016 05:23 PM
Edited by HeymlicH at 17:24, 28 Oct 2016.

Maag said:

Coming back to Tower i would like to mention that Cyra is Wizard, Aine also. They get less attack and defense than Alchemists, afaik. Plus Diplo really is banned in 90% or more multiplayer games, so that is not really an option. Aine is just good for secondary hero to earn money.
The only Wizard, that is playable is Solmyr and that also only in the beginning, to clean up area. Do not make magic hero to your main.


I never said to make Cyra or Aine your main. Cyra is good because of her diplo skill, which often is banned. Aine is just used as support.

Ebonheart said:
HeymlicH said:
@knights vs Rangers: The problem with knights is, that they can learn all 4 magic schools, while Rangers can't learn fire magic. Because of that, Rangers are guaranteed to learn earth magic, while knights may end up getting earth very late or not at all. Of course it is fine to give Orrin 3k Exp to see what happens, and if he is offered earth at lvl 4, make him your main. But if he gets something else, I wouldn't invest any further into him.
Guaranteed is somewhat of an exaggeration and so is the need for earth magic, it greatly depends on the town you play..


You seem to fail to understand how secondary skills are selected for might heros. Rangers, Overlords, Barbarians and Beastmasters are guaranteed to get earth magic. Provided you pick properly, of course. And for tower earth magic is very needed, since they rely on shooters.


Ebonheart said:

If you play Tower then only mister Hack will topple Orrin.



Logistics (if not banned) and Armorer specialists are best for tower. That means Kyrre/Gunnar and Tazar/Mephala. Hack inferior to them, really. Offense special and no Water :/


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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted October 28, 2016 06:33 PM

HeymlicH said:
You seem to fail to understand how secondary skills are selected for might heros. Rangers, Overlords, Barbarians and Beastmasters are guaranteed to get earth magic.

No, you fail to understand that. No magic school is guaranted to any class, put a box with 100.000 XP and take notes of the skills offered, repeat about 100 for class. You will see.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 28, 2016 07:11 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 19:13, 28 Oct 2016.

If you aim for magic schools and ignore everything else, you will 100% get at least 3 magic schools, with any might class, because: a) there are levels where they will be always offered and b) independently of previous rule, they still have a chance of being offered each level up and that doesn't invalidate the previous equation.  

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 28, 2016 08:01 PM

HeymlicH said:
You seem to fail to understand how secondary skills are selected for might heros. Rangers, Overlords, Barbarians and Beastmasters are guaranteed to get earth magic. Provided you pick properly, of course.

As some people already pointed out, I don't. I do not deny the fact that the chances for Earth Magic are higher for said heroes, but higher is not the same as guaranteed.

HeymlicH said:
And for tower earth magic is very needed, since they rely on shooters.
I really wonder if you have actually tried Tower after reading this. While it is true that earth magic is a handy skill, the Tower is the one town that has the smallest requirement to have it. It is handy, but by no means needed vs the map. In the end fight mass slow has little use since your opponent is likely to be both faster and have access to EM/AM and while Shield, Implo etc have their uses, Tower performs best under the OoI effect.

HeymlicH said:
Logistics (if not banned) and Armorer specialists are best for tower. That means Kyrre/Gunnar and Tazar/Mephala. Hack inferior to them, really. Offense special and no Water :/

Attack > Defense vs the map, why is this simple concept so disturbingly difficult to understand? 90% of a game is determined on the map. You want to have your edge there.

Even if I would by default "start" with Tazar/Mephala I would still look for a Barbarian in the tavern. It's not because they are "bad" heroes, but because a Barbarian clears the map faster.
The Towers un-upgraded units are vulnerable to attack (with the exception of the Naga). Armorer might look great upfront but if a map creature stack gets to feast on your Gremlins/Magi/Nagas and Giants, you lose precious troops. Higher attack on the other hand assures that you crush them before they weaken you or greatly diminish their stack to a state in which yours are safe from a counterblow. Since you won't upgrade the Gremlins during W1 you basically got 1 shooter, the magi. They are decent shooters but cannot weaken all stacks on their own. So you need the brute strength to protect yourself.

Alas, this is my way of playing it and for me it has worked far better compared to the times when I picked a more defensive orientated hero.

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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted October 29, 2016 01:04 AM
Edited by Maag at 01:05, 29 Oct 2016.

Ebonheart said:

Attack > Defense vs the map, why is this simple concept so disturbingly difficult to understand? 90% of a game is determined on the map. You want to have your edge there.

Even if I would by default "start" with Tazar/Mephala I would still look for a Barbarian in the tavern. It's not because they are "bad" heroes, but because a Barbarian clears the map faster.
The Towers un-upgraded units are vulnerable to attack (with the exception of the Naga). Armorer might look great upfront but if a map creature stack gets to feast on your Gremlins/Magi/Nagas and Giants, you lose precious troops. Higher attack on the other hand assures that you crush them before they weaken you or greatly diminish their stack to a state in which yours are safe from a counterblow. Since you won't upgrade the Gremlins during W1 you basically got 1 shooter, the magi. They are decent shooters but cannot weaken all stacks on their own. So you need the brute strength to protect yourself.

Alas, this is my way of playing it and for me it has worked far better compared to the times when I picked a more defensive orientated hero.


Actually makes sense yes. But u might not get good barbarian from tavern. If u don't get him/her fast, then by week 3 for example or 4 your main already developing and could do the work. Better give your armorer specialted hero more exp. and try to pump up exp. fast.
The best thing in regular game with Tower, what could happen is - month 1, week 1, day 1 you look tavern and see Crag Hack drinking beer over there

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