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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Another Dungeon
Thread: Another Dungeon
Cortes
Cortes


Adventuring Hero
posted November 04, 2016 08:19 PM
Edited by Cortes at 22:06, 10 Nov 2016.

Another Dungeon

Welcome to my new Idea.

Once again Line-up will be 2-1-2-1-1.

I owe non of the pictures.

By the way, you may see that I refer to mechanics and possibilities who have never appeared in the series.
But there are many, who I would like to see and some of them fit with dungeon:


DAY  AND  NIGHT:
Why not? I can totally see it. During day, certain factions and magic schools benefit as much, as other faction and schools benefit from the night.
(For now I would say necropolis, dungeon and dark magic from night and humans, light magic and fire magic from day.)


BURROWER:
Got this idea as soon as I took a look on heroes 7 dungeon. Can see it very easy for dungeon, fortress and maybe humans.


FLANKING:
Not really knew but if it is restricted to things like “only working if not being in area of sight or a surrounding tile before” I can actually see it working quite well.



INFO:
The giant systems of caves and tunnels below the underground are a world of its own. One can found great treasures or an early death. But there are some, who live underground. Some want it, some were once forced to do. They have established a culture with his own rules. They welcome everyone but you have to proof your loyalty and/or your use. One way or another. They are ruled by a council of elders and there is always only one member for one kind.



RACIAL:
Nightwalker:
While fighting in a cave or during night, every creature in your army gets a boost on certain stats. Boost depends on rank of Nightwalker and level of your hero. It also has a symbiosis with dark magic.  


ROGUE
Might heroes. They tend to offense, destiny and dark magic. But also strong use of exploration and warcries.


WARLOCK
Magic heroes. They tend to dark magic, earth magic and defense. But also strong use of destiny and paragon.



Campaign – Shadow
The places, where most of all Shades are born is a secret, no one besides the themselves knows it. Better said, no one besides themselves is SUPPOSED to know it. And jet, the secret is no more. And the enemies are coming. Now, Esgal has not only to defend the biggest birthplace of his people and to find the traitor but also to make sure, that never again, the sanctuary of the underground will be under attack.
Rogue
Special:
Better stats for every Shade and Phantom in his army, depending on hero level.  


Campaign – Just a small rock
Follow the way of Grokok, a young troglodyte, who finds a magic book, written for the ones, who are blind until he becomes one of the greatest powers of his kind and underground overall.
Warlock.
Special:
Stronger Earth Magic, depending on hero level.


Some other heroes:

Elenwen, Dark Elf, Rogue.
Young and cheerful and a great thief.
Special:
If enemy hero retreats from a fight with Elenwen, he will lose his artifacts.

Grant, Troglodyte, Rogue.
Best Burrower of his kind.
Special:
For every  X hero level, every Troglodyte, Chitonian, Worm and Abyss Worm can burrow one more tile beyond movement range.


Rulgash, Shade, Warlock
Even deeper involved with dark magic, then any other Shade.
Special:
Stronger dark magic, depending on hero level.

Rungolf, Dwarf, Warlock
Banned from his clan.
Special:
X% chance of dealing additional fire damage every time, he puts a spell of earth magic on enemys.









Giant Bat / Ahool – flier, melee

TIER 1
LORE:
Giant Bats mostly found at the entrance areas to the underground system. They are numerous and thank to their way of locating things around them, they are often used as guards and scouts.  
Abilities:
Ultrasonic: Unit can not be flanked and any flanking attack on a friendly unit at a 2x2 area around unit will not work as well.
(U) Screams: X% chance that target will not retaliate.    



Watcher / Evil Eye – walker, ranged

TIER 1
LORE:
They are many secrets underground and the origin of these creatures is one of them. Some say, they are minor spirits of darkness, other say, the are the souls of the ones who died without hope to see the sun again. They seem to follow something only they understand, while watching silently, what ever happens around them.
Abilities:
Dark Shoot: If creature attacks, it will randomly reduce stats of target. One strong reduction or two weak reductions. If upgraded creature attacks, it has X% chance to cause confusion as well.


Troglodyte / Chitonian – walker, melee

TIER 2
LORE:
Many see their claws, their teeth, their entire appearance and call them monster. But that is not right, as they are much more intelligent then most may think. They have their own villages, their own tribes, they simply do not need weapons to fight. Or to move they way, the prefer.
Abilities:
Blind: Has immunity to blindness and magical effects.
Burrower: Creature moves through burrowing movement. Has only X% of movement cost of using tunnel.
(U)Immunity to earth: Creature has immunity to damage and negative effects of earth magic.





Darkf Elf / Assassin – walker, ranged

TIER 3
LORE:
Forced to go underground, they do not talk about the reasons. They are very skilled fighters but seem not to hate the races on the surface.
Abilities:
No melee penalty: No penalty for close combat.
(U)Poison Attack: X% of original damage over X rounds.



Shadow Panther / Shadow Beast – walker, mlee

TIER 3
LORE:
Large, predatory animals who dwells naturally at caves and other dark places.  
Abilities:
Hunter: If unit can make a flanking attack, it gets X% bonus on damage.
(U)Man Eater: Bonus damage against every creature who needs only one tile.
(U)Immunity to shadow: Creature has immunity to damage and negative effects of shadow magic.



Shade / Phantom – teleporter, melee, caster

TIER 4
LORE:
On a rare occasion it happens, that a elemental comes in touch with a very special place of magic. If this happens to a Shadow Elemental, a Shade is born. Very intelligent and powerful spirits of darkness, they have a natural dislike of anything related to light.
Abilities:
Immunity to shadow: Creature has immunity to damage and negative effects of shadow magic.
Vulnerability to light: Increase Light Damage by X%.
Caster: Can cast Despair, Weakness, (U) Shadow Image, (U) Agony and (U) summon of Shadow Elemental.


Worm / Abyss Worm – walker, melee

TIER 5
LORE:
Giant creatures, creating the biggest caves and tunnels underground. They eat almost everything and do not mind, going on the surfaces, if they sense a possible good meal.
Abilities:
Man Eater: Bonus damage against every creature who needs only one tile.
Immunity to earth: Creature has immunity to damage and negative effects of earth magic.
Bigger Burrower: Creature moves through burrowing movement and once per battle it can create a tunnel within its range for units in your army. If exit of tunnels lies beneath of enemy units, they will be moved to neighboring tile and get X% additional damage. Sending units trough tunnel costs X% movement.  
(U) Hard Skin: Non magical damage is reduced by X%.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This time I tried with lore and stuff from the start.


EDIT

Reupload. Changed abilities/description of abilities from Troglodyte, Dark Elf and Worm.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted November 05, 2016 11:45 AM

Seems good to me. In fact, I'd say this is mixing the old and new and dropping the bad points of both, you no long have a plethora of 'lead races' that H3 suffered with, but nor have you let the one single race you've got flood the lineup.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 05, 2016 01:47 PM

Pretty nice, though the descriptions could be more filled out.
Also, I'm missing one of the core classics like minotaurs and black dragons.

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Cortes
Cortes


Adventuring Hero
posted November 05, 2016 10:58 PM

Overall thanks!

And Mediczero, I left them out because they were to much "muscle" in my opinion to match this idea of dungeon.


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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 06, 2016 01:12 AM

Cortes said:
Overall thanks!

And Mediczero, I left them out because they were to much "muscle" in my opinion to match this idea of dungeon.



Well then, why not make a beastmen faction?

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted November 06, 2016 04:09 AM

Really doesn't work for me. You're doing the same mistake as Ubi here, putting awesome mythological creatures out of the lineup in favor of questionable replacements. How does a Shadow Panther replaces a Mino, a Worm iconic Black Dragons, a Spirit dude Medusae? It doesn't, I would never play this Dungeon because it lacks everything I like about this town.
Sorry if the feedback is a bit harsh but it's honest.
____________
"Corribus is a teddy bear" - Blizzardboy

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Cortes
Cortes


Adventuring Hero
posted November 06, 2016 09:09 AM

Mediczero said:
Cortes said:
Overall thanks!

And Mediczero, I left them out because they were to much "muscle" in my opinion to match this idea of dungeon.



Well then, why not make a beastmen faction?



Well, not the first time I think about this but every time I am reminded of beastmen from warhammer. So no, sad but no.
But I do think, beastmen could make a own faction.



Galaad said:
Really doesn't work for me. You're doing the same mistake as Ubi here, putting awesome mythological creatures out of the lineup in favor of questionable replacements. How does a Shadow Panther replaces a Mino, a Worm iconic Black Dragons, a Spirit dude Medusae? It doesn't, I would never play this Dungeon because it lacks everything I like about this town.
Sorry if the feedback is a bit harsh but it's honest.


No problem I actually knew something like this would come. I do not mind it, every has it's own opinion.

But for me, Minotaur, Black Dragons does simply not fit Dungeon. Not really. For me, they do fit Warlock.
And I see Dungeon and Warlock actually as two, quite different factions.


Warlock = Powerhungy and evil Wizards who use strong, powerful creatures like Minotaurs and Manticore to get what they want. Allied with Black Dragons and using slaves as canon fodder and fodder for their racial "Blood Magic". (Sacrifice Units from your army to be able to cast very strong and unique spells or to boost your other Units)


Dungeon = Darkness, Shadow, Desperate, Weakness, Poison. Hunted by Shadows and Darkness, running along never ending tunnels and caves, far from any light of the day. Your death, waiting in the Darkness, how you are getting slowly weaker, bit by bit, until your life finds an end with a dagger from the shadows or an attack from below, pushing you probably even deeper into the darkness.



Got a bit out of hand.
But this is, how I see them and I know, that Warlock never had a racial but if I would ever make one, I would most likely use Blood Magic or something similiar.

And about Medusae, I do not see her in either of them. Blame Sanctuary for it but I like them to see in a water based faction the most.
Though I got also liked to the idea, putting them into a Swamp.  

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted November 06, 2016 11:53 AM
Edited by MattII at 11:59, 06 Nov 2016.

Quote:
Really doesn't work for me. You're doing the same mistake as Ubi here, putting awesome mythological creatures out of the lineup in favor of questionable replacements. How does a Shadow Panther replaces a Mino, a Worm iconic Black Dragons, a Spirit dude Medusae? It doesn't, I would never play this Dungeon because it lacks everything I like about this town.
And I say look at the Warlock/Dungeon town of the NWC/3DO era:
HoMM1
Centaur
Gargoyle
Griffin
Minotaur
Hydra
Dragon

HoMM2
Centaur
Gargoyle
Griffin
Minotaur > Minotaur King
Hydra
Green Dragon > Red Dragon > Black Dragon

HoMM3
Troglodyte > Infernal Troglodyte
Harpy > Harpy Hag
Beholder > Evil Eye
Medusa > Medusa Queen
Minotaur > Minotaur King
Manticore > Scorpicore
Red Dragon > Black Dragon

HoMM4
Bandit, Orc
Medusa/Minotaur
Efreet/Nightmare
Black Dragon/Hydra


So for HoMM3, NWC/3DO dropped two thirds of the old lineup. So this is no worse really.

Quote:
Sorry if the feedback is a bit harsh but it's honest.
Opinionated rather.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted November 06, 2016 12:25 PM

@Cortes: Ok I see, but that notion of Dungeon is the more stealthy one introduced by Ubisoft, that I really loathe, possibly that's why your idea made me react this way.

@MattII: I don't really see the point you're trying to make, modifying lineups and modifying the spirit of a town are two different things. You clearly see h2 Warlock and h3 Dungeon share a similar theme, of monstrosity and mythology, despite lineup differences, that's what matters to me.
____________
"Corribus is a teddy bear" - Blizzardboy

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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted November 06, 2016 01:14 PM

kinda share feelings with Galaad on this. Though I don't inherently dislike sneaky dungeon, Dark elves and a lack of minos and Dragons is not dungeon as far as I'm concerned.

As it's own sneaky non-dungeon faction though, I like it. I could see this being a functioning cave faction.

Bats are pretty cool and have interesting abilities. Evil eye is a particularly good take on an old creature but while the Trog is standard and hardly a bad addition, the burrow ability might need some toning or outright removal. Feels like there's too much too it.

Elves I dislike always but not a huge deal. Premptive strike really only worked in H4 where attacks where simultaneous so not a good ability. Shadow beast could probably be replaced by anything really. not a fan. same with shade. really, all the elite creatures are lackluster I feel, though the abilities and actual game play around them seem solid.

If the dragon should ever be replaced, giant worms are a good candidate. Burrow works better here too though It could still use a lot of clarification or reworking.

honestly, I don't dislike it as a whole, just parts of it. the parts I like I find very appealing though.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 06, 2016 06:40 PM

Cortes said:
Well, not the first time I think about this but every time I am reminded of beastmen from warhammer. So no, sad but no.
But I do think, beastmen could make a own faction.

And about Medusae, I do not see her in either of them. Blame Sanctuary for it but I like them to see in a water based faction the most.
Though I got also liked to the idea, putting them into a Swamp.  

But Warhammer beastmen are awesome! Okay, maybe not the whole "creatures of chaos and destroyer of civilization" part, but the idea of nomadic warherds is certainly awesome. Might create my own in that case.

Also, I agree about putting medusa in the swamp faction, she just seem oddly fitting together with the lizardmen.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted November 07, 2016 08:20 AM

Quote:
@MattII: I don't really see the point you're trying to make, modifying lineups and modifying the spirit of a town are two different things. You clearly see h2 Warlock and h3 Dungeon share a similar theme, of monstrosity and mythology, despite lineup differences, that's what matters to me.
Not really the same spirit IMO, in H1 and H2 the town was barbaric, but in H3 it dropped that for eldritch.

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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted November 07, 2016 08:39 AM

Eh, i find they were always both, it just changed from "warlocks dominating beasts" to "society of beasts".
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted November 07, 2016 08:48 AM
Edited by MattII at 09:27, 07 Nov 2016.

I would not consider the Beholder or Manticore to be mere 'beasts' (took eldritch), and since the Harpy and Medusa use weapons they're certainly not beasts.

Mind you, looking back, I think H3 Dungeon was an attempt to shoehorn the old Warlock town into a setting in which it didn't really belong, and the result was a town so different from its predecessor that really they might as well have done a ground-up new town.

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Cortes
Cortes


Adventuring Hero
posted November 07, 2016 05:04 PM

@kiryu133

Have to admit, there was a mistake with premptive strike. Retaliation before attack. Changed it.

And what do you mean with too much?



@Medic

Yes it is, but if I am reminded to much of something else, I do not like it.

Go ahead.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 07, 2016 07:35 PM

Cortes said:
@Medic

Yes it is, but if I am reminded to much of something else, I do not like it.

Go ahead.

Hmm, pretty understandable. Originality is most often better.
However, my idea will be wildly different. Culturally I'm basing it of North American native tribes, even encluding a few creatures from there as well.
Though the main theme would of course be beasts.

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted November 07, 2016 08:42 PM

beasts is fortress

dungeon is monsters
____________

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 07, 2016 08:49 PM

yogi said:
beasts is fortress

Reptiles I'll add, fortress is reptiles. The beastmen faction would focus an mammalian creatures (satyrs, centaurs, chimeras, giant boars, so on) with a few birds thrown into the mix (thunderbird, harpys...)
Furthermore, a steppe faction like what I have in mind is quite different from the swampy fortress.

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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted November 08, 2016 11:06 AM

Cortes said:
@kiryu133

Have to admit, there was a mistake with premptive strike. Retaliation before attack. Changed it.

And what do you mean with too much?



problem still maintains. If you want it somewhat balanced you'd have to make it happen at the same time as the enemy strikes. as it is, the creature has no weakness.

too much to keep track of, too complex if you will. besides, those things aren't gonna make caves big enough for anything. but as I said, it works really well as THE worm ability. my tip is to remove it from trogs but give them some bonus from using worm tunnels or allow them to burrow without creating tunnels for others to use.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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Cortes
Cortes


Adventuring Hero
posted November 08, 2016 07:16 PM
Edited by Cortes at 22:07, 10 Nov 2016.

kiryu133 said:
Cortes said:
@kiryu133

Have to admit, there was a mistake with premptive strike. Retaliation before attack. Changed it.

And what do you mean with too much?



problem still maintains. If you want it somewhat balanced you'd have to make it happen at the same time as the enemy strikes. as it is, the creature has no weakness.

too much to keep track of, too complex if you will. besides, those things aren't gonna make caves big enough for anything. but as I said, it works really well as THE worm ability. my tip is to remove it from trogs but give them some bonus from using worm tunnels or allow them to burrow without creating tunnels for others to use.



Hm, got a point.
I will rethink it.

EDIT:

Did it

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